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2,874 hits since 27 Sep 2010
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Sergio27 Sep 2010 10:01 a.m. PST

link

From Osprey Warrior 153 – Bronze Age Greek Warrior 1600-1100 BC.

Hitman27 Sep 2010 10:07 a.m. PST

I have never gamed that era…but the photo looks awesome!!

IGWARG1 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian27 Sep 2010 10:17 a.m. PST

I always suspected that "sword and sandal" period was in technicolr :)

Steve Hazuka27 Sep 2010 10:22 a.m. PST

Guy on the left is wearing a Chia Pet helmet

Angel Barracks27 Sep 2010 10:23 a.m. PST

Photo?

That would be impressive!

Angel Barracks27 Sep 2010 10:36 a.m. PST

Does the one guy have a RPG ???

Ha ha I see it now!

Errm yes it appears so.

aecurtis Fezian27 Sep 2010 10:55 a.m. PST

It is a silly thing.

Allen

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2010 10:57 a.m. PST

Does the one guy have a RPG ???

That's one of the first things I thought of as well!

Personal logo Virtualscratchbuilder Supporting Member of TMP Fezian27 Sep 2010 11:03 a.m. PST

I thought everything was black and white back then.

Nice picture though.

Cyrus the Great27 Sep 2010 11:09 a.m. PST

Not much! A flight of fancy combined with a few historical bits.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2010 11:23 a.m. PST

Dang… I misplace my helmet and the raid is today! I know… I'll just wear this potted plant.

Sergio27 Sep 2010 11:47 a.m. PST

In your opinion is this a fantasy picture? :)

lawagetas27 Sep 2010 2:44 p.m. PST

It is not a fantasy picture !!!
An the historical and archaelogical bits are several not few!!
The plate is in fact mainly based on real archaeological findings and Aegean art representations some of them never published before, like for instance the high embossed bronze tiara like helmet found in two complete specimens both in Greece and Crete. The Sea Peoples are based on the Medinet Habu relief hypothized with bronze banded cuirass based on findings from Bronze Age Greek settlements.
The fringed square shield is based on Late Helladic pottery representation of a naval warfare. The cuirass on the left warrior is based on a Bronze Age partial finding from Central Europe.
This Osprey book will give a innovative image of the Aegean Bronge age showing several new elements so far only well know by few scholars and researchers

TESTUDO27 Sep 2010 2:59 p.m. PST

I hope to restore much better quality of the picture's colors by posting this: link

Enjoy

Andrew Walters27 Sep 2010 8:48 p.m. PST

I'm a little concerned about the figurehead being purple.

I'm a *lot* concerned about it having hair plugs.

Plus one boarder seems to be wielding a giant shrimp fork.

Sometimes I'm concerned that my history degree is worthless.

Andrew

lawagetas28 Sep 2010 3:19 a.m. PST

Several evidence from painting and frescoes as well as linear B description and Homer poems gave evidence that basically all the colors were largelly used in that period. Specifically the red and the purple seems have been the preferred color of the Achaeans, so the ship head painted in this color is fully reasonable.
The "hair plug" on top of the ship's bird head are based on a pottery representation dated LH IIIC of a naval battle were such kind of "hair tufts" or similar decorative crests are represented.
The "shirimp fork" is based on a bronze specimen of a spear with two point found in Crete. Furthermore the utilization of a spear with two points is also attested in the Iliad it was in fact used from the Achaean ship during the battle inside the achaen camp.
So its representation in this table is fully resonable as well.
No your history degree is probably not worthless, but to know such specific archaeological/historical details on this specific argument the school background must be completed with a life long research in the museums, detailed reading of archaeological pubblicatons, visit in the excavation sites, attend dedicated symposiums, talk with the archaeologist…etc…
Anyway for more detailed information about the Greek Bronze weaponry arguments
salimbeti.com/micenei

cirederftrebua28 Sep 2010 3:26 a.m. PST

OK, this very beautiful picture is showing Sea Peoples warriors.

But, what is the warrior running on the right side, against the others ?
Is he a Sea Peoples warrior or a Mittanni or a Mycenae one ??

lawagetas28 Sep 2010 3:30 a.m. PST

It is a possible representation of a Shradana Sea People .
Based on the image in the Medinet Habu Egyptian temple.
he has been interpretated with a bronze lobster type cuirass, bronze horned helmet (also based on some Egyptian representation as well as Aegean art, and a Naue II sword .

link

cirederftrebua28 Sep 2010 5:18 a.m. PST

Uhm… I didn't see the Sherdana warriors like this…
For me, the afraid man on the bottom of the picture seems to be a Sherdana warrior : he has a more typical Sherdana helmet (bronz horns and a disc on the top).

But, the warrior on the right is more like a Mycenean warrior for me : his armor is with wide shoulder protection like the Mycenean warriors definitely wore and his helmet is more like a simple mycenean one (with typical Mycenean horns but without any horse hairs tail) than a sherdana one.
Look at the following picture showing a Mycenean vase :
picture

But, anyway, I know scholars supposed that Sherdana peoples were from Aegean sea or even sometimes from Achaea : not very far from Mycenea ;-)
A lot of Sea Peoples were from Greek islands (others from Creta and others from Sicilia and Sardinia)so they possibly wore the same type of armor…
For anyone interested by this period, the last "Ancient Warfare" revue is especially on this subject.
link
Really very very interesting !
And with superb pictures too…

cirederftrebua28 Sep 2010 5:24 a.m. PST

Lawagetas,

Many many thanks for the link to this site :
salimbeti.com/micenei
Really very very interesting !!!

A very good complement to "Ancient warfare" revue.

lawagetas28 Sep 2010 6:12 a.m. PST

On Egyptian relief specially from medinet Habu several different type of shardana horned helmet are represented.
The ones with the disk on top were worn by the shardana already serving as mercenary in the Egyptian army.
But for instance in the Sea Battle representation in the Medinet Habu temple all the "possible shardana" warriors have the horned helmet without the central disk.
Of course these kind of helmets show closer similarity with the ones also represented in the Aegean art from Greece and islands like Rhodes or Cyprus
The bronze armour is one of the possible reconstruction of the "lobster style" cuirasses worn by the Shardana and the Peleset as represented in the Medinet Habu sea battle relief.
This reconstructive hypothesis is in fact based on the typical Achaean bronze age armour similar to the one found in the Achaean city of Thebes and other fragmentary elements attested in other Late Helladic settlements.
The main article about the Sea Peoples battle in the delta of Nile published in the last Ancient Warfare magazine is made by the same authors of the next Osprey related to the Greek Bronze Age warrior whom one of the full color plate (related to a raid between and Achaean ship and a pirate/sea peoples ship) is the topic of this discussion.

Buff Orpington28 Sep 2010 7:09 a.m. PST

First recorded use of foliage to break up a helmet silhouette?

cirederftrebua28 Sep 2010 7:38 a.m. PST

Lawagetas wrote :
"…the full color plate related to a raid between and Achaean ship and a pirate/sea peoples ship…"

So, it's well an Achaean ship against a pirate Sea People ship.
I didn't know this and it's why I spoke about Mycenean warrior.
My assumption was not so bad ;-))

Many thanks for your information, Lawagetas !
This period is very new for Antiquity lovers.
Fortunately, the last scholars and archeological findings allow us to better discover this fantastic era.
Infortunately, battles of this era are not well known…
It seems sources are still very rare about this topic.

Anyway, the picture is amazing and very colourful !
A temptation for figures painters ;-))
I think this new Osprey book will be very interesting.

lawagetas28 Sep 2010 7:46 a.m. PST

We don't know for sure, the foliage on top of this cilindrical high helmet it is just an hypothesis based on some very schematic Aegean pottery representations where such kind of rays or rushes seem to be represented on top of similar cylindrical high headgears.
Very likely it was a such kind of decorative elements which could have also been made with folliage, rushes or straw.
What we know for sure is that the internal cap of one of these helmet was made of thick straw on which the bronze bands composing the cylinder were fixed with nails.
The top of the cylinder was open so very likely such kind of decorations were placed over the straw cap protuding above the bronze external cylinder

Steve At Immortal Miniatures28 Sep 2010 9:25 a.m. PST

I think it is a great illustration, certainly nothing wrong with the use of colour.
lawagetas:
Interesting stuff, its a period I am very interested in and a range I would very much like to do one day!

lawagetas28 Sep 2010 10:37 a.m. PST

I dont think that in that period the warriors were using hiding disquise elements.
It was exactelly the contary they like to show their impressive weaponry to the enemy.
So very likely those presumable rushes or straw stiks on the top of the helmet have just a decorative purpose like the voluminose horse hair crest, ivory tusks, or the horns

lawagetas28 Sep 2010 12:03 p.m. PST

Yes I know…. but some other peoples may be not

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2010 5:10 a.m. PST

I like the picture – I'd hang it on the wall of the wargaming room, but I do wonder where they got their dyes for their clothing from. Seem just a bit too bright.

lawagetas29 Sep 2010 5:20 a.m. PST

The images has been print with too much darker respect to the original color.
Anyway the survived frescoes show that the very bright color were used.
To dyes the cloth a mix of natural color coming from the shells, flowers, soil, clay, vegetables, resin etc.. were probably used

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP29 Sep 2010 5:25 a.m. PST

What is achievable on a fresco with paint pigments and what can actually be done on real clothing with natural dyes are two different things though.

lawagetas29 Sep 2010 7:58 a.m. PST

yes but in the fresco were represented which actually were the colors of the outfits so we know that they were using several kind of colors like red, purple, yellow, blue. green etc…
How much those colors were more or less brillant on clothing I don't know but some very old survived clothing in linen or wool coming from old time periods even if more recent (for instance roman and byzantize) show that the color on clothing were enought brillant and not pale

TESTUDO29 Sep 2010 8:44 a.m. PST

Now working again, sorry.

picture

Cyrus the Great29 Sep 2010 3:48 p.m. PST

This Osprey book will give a innovative image of the Aegean Bronge age showing several new elements so far only well know by few scholars and researchers.

Definition of INNOVATION
1: the introduction of something new
2: a new idea, method, or device : novelty

The picture certainly meets the criterion of the definition.


But…


We don't know for sure, the foliage on top of this cilindrical high helmet it is just an hypothesis based on some very schematic Aegean pottery representations where such kind of rays or rushes seem to be represented on top of similar cylindrical high headgears.

Definition of HYPOTHESIS
1a : an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument b : an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action
2: a tentative assumption made in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences
3: the antecedent clause of a conditional statement

Hypotheses may be rejected. Taking what we know, and it is very little, about colors, weapons and armor used and applying them willy nilly to a picture does not make sense to me. To take one example, the purple ship. Purple was not a cheap color to make and was, in some contemporary cultures, the purview of royalty. One could not just trot down to the local Home Depot and buy a few gallons of purple for the boat. Can I, or anyone for that matter, say with a 100% certainty that this was or was not ever done? No, but I am hesitant to embrace this interpretation with open arms.

lawagetas30 Sep 2010 1:37 a.m. PST

For innovation I mean the publication of findings (like for instance the bronze high cylindrical helmet or some bronze greaves, spear points, swords, pottery etc…) never published before on large distribution publications so unknown by the majority of the reading public.

In this case Hypothesis means reasonable assumption and personal interpretation only based on some schematic art representations, being not similar decoration survived and no other much more clear painting available.
Of course that every Hypothesis can be questionable but in the book there is not the possibility to show all the possible interpretations of a certain painting or fragmentary finding so the one that the authors like better has been choice.
It is not true that we Know very little about the weaponry and the colour of that period.
There are several elements like findings, linear B description, art representation, Homer descriptions etc.. which allow the scholars with many years of research in the specific argument to reproduce in reasonable way several aspect of the material and military culture of the Late Helladic.
The purple in different shade can be produce also mixing different kind of colours. Today nobody know, in the Palatial and early post palatial Greece of 1200 BC, what was really cheap or expensive to create in colour making
Yes the purple was normally associate with royalty and so! The ship represented may been also the flagship of an Achaean king from Locris.
Yes you are right in some case (like for instance which colours were or not used on the ships) nobody can say with 100% sure what it was or not.
I don't have any certain elements to claim that some colours were for sure not used. At the contrary based on survived colours in some Minoan or Egyptian ships representations it seem that any kind of colours could have been reproduced and used.
The Osprey book will include 8 full colour plates and several archaeological images and of course the relevant explicative text.
A reasoning, full and useful review of the book contents can be only made after its publication

Cyrus the Great30 Sep 2010 12:46 p.m. PST

A reasoning, full and useful review of the book contents can be only made after its publication


Very true.


It is not true that we Know very little about the weaponry and the colour of that period.


I should have been more careful in my wording. We may know a lot about the colors, but not their usage. For example, the picture shows a Sea People type helmet with blue feathers. Was blue known in the color palette available? Yes. Could feathers have been dyed blue? Yes. Were any Sea People depicted at Medinet Habu this way? Not that I'm aware of, at this time. I described them years ago as feathers the color of mud. They may have been leather strips. You can read some of my comments about dye colors here:


TMP link

This book will, obviously, get people talking.

Cyrus the Great30 Sep 2010 12:53 p.m. PST

By the way, for those of you who have an intertest, you may view some of the hypotheses regarding Sea People armor at this site:


link

TESTUDO30 Sep 2010 4:22 p.m. PST

Cyrus, I find this very funny, you pointed out the same website as lawagetas. I think you should arrive to the same conclusions, don't you?

lawagetas01 Oct 2010 1:21 a.m. PST

I have seen very old archaeological books made by Egyptologists researchers of the 19th century were the colours of some Peleset tiara like helmet's plumes or feathers or leather strips, or straw or whatever they were … have been coloured in blue or alternate blue and red.
Of course we don't know for sure whether those colours shown in these archaeological reconstructions were only a speculative hypothesis of the archaeologists or if they were actually able to see some of the original paint still present on some relief.
I support the second possibility being some trace of red and blue still barely visible in at least one representation of a Peleset captive warrior. This full colour image is also present in the page of the link you mentioned . In this image the red and blue colour of the skirts are still well visible but in a much more close view of the real relief also some traces of the same colours are present on the peleset's headgear.
Anyway to suppose that those crests may have been coloured is fully reasonable and their interpretation as coloured in blue or red even if not certain at 100% it is at least supported by some barely visible remains and by the research or hypothesis made by famous Egyptologists and scholars.

colin knight01 Oct 2010 7:09 a.m. PST

I love Sea Peoples especially armour and Philistine type helmets. Really like the illustration.

Cyrus the Great01 Oct 2010 12:22 p.m. PST

Cyrus, I find this very funny, you pointed out the same website as lawagetas. I think you should arrive to the same conclusions, don't you?

Warart, I don't always check out everyone's posted links right away. It is one of my favorite sites. You'd be surprised at how much of all this is open to interpretation and I may not agree with lawagetas on everything. I may err on the conservative side and not have access to every source he has seen.


For example:

I have seen very old archaeological books made by Egyptologists researchers of the 19th century were the colours of some Peleset tiara like helmet's plumes or feathers or leather strips, or straw or whatever they were … have been coloured in blue or alternate blue and red.


I have not seen these.

This full colour image is also present in the page of the link you mentioned . In this image the red and blue colour of the skirts are still well visible but in a much more close view of the real relief also some traces of the same colours are present on the peleset's headgear.


I have never been sure if it was pigmentation or natural stone discoloration.

The site cited by both lawagetas and myself doesn't really address the idea that the armor may have been constructed of leather. It just notes it mat have been some other perishable material. There is a lot of material open to interpretation. This book looks like it will advance some very interesting ideas and you can bet I'll buy it, but I may not agree with some or all its conclusions.

lawagetas01 Oct 2010 2:28 p.m. PST

Mostly of the reconstructions In the book will be not presented as absolute conclusions but of course just as one of the possible reconstructive Hypothesis based on findings, or art representations.
The warriors represented in the Naval raids for instance are just a possible representation of how they may have been looked like, but of course they could have been also represented in other way. For instance just with similar kind of corselets but made of linen or leather, or with different kind of helmets, weapons and shields.

The authors of this Osprey Book are the same of the site cited.
So for what concern the text, an the images the book will be just a short version of the site.
Except for the full colour plates which will be very impressive and never seen before.

colin knight03 Oct 2010 7:21 a.m. PST

Well I will be getting a copy of the Osprey.

Mrs Pumblechook08 Dec 2010 7:13 p.m. PST

Lovely costumes.

I know readings of ancient history and warfare usually concentrate on men, but just think of all the work the women put in doing those fringes.

aecurtis Fezian08 Dec 2010 11:21 p.m. PST

"Sometimes I'm concerned that my history degree is worthless."

Apparently they hand them out like candy on Halloween these days. Laughable. Simply laughable.

Allen

lutonjames09 Dec 2010 4:05 a.m. PST

The art doesn't look very good to me. Very little depth etc. It's ok for us as we know what we're looking at and what we're looking for. I don't think you'd get the correct idea from the guy on the right- the armour looks to flush- we can see how it's joined- but that's because we know how it should be.

I'll stick with link

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