"Seneffe 1674" Topic

Can anyone recommend English langauge resources on the Battle of Seneffe 1674. The Great Conde vrs William III. Books or websites.

Thanks

There is a Dutch website dedicated to the wars of the late 17th-century. The author makes a good attempt to provide English translation of his website.

rampjaar.blogspot.com

There are several entires over the year on the battle of Seneffe.

Captain,

The rampjaar blog site is indeed an excellent source. You might also want to check out Dr. Pierre Picouet's excellent "Spanish Tercio's" web site. Don't let the name mislead you, the site actually covers Spain and most of their opponent's and allies from the late 16th century through the early 18th. His section on battles of the period has the Battle of Seneffe, which includes a pretty good orbat, several good maps, a good narrative of the battle and some further sources for follow-up. You can find Dr. Picouet's page on Seneffe here:

link

You can also find some decent period maps of Seneffe with deployment and orbat information in the Marburg Digital Archive. The site is in German, but on the left of the page, above the word "Suchen", type "Seneffe 1674", and you will get a search result that is a menu of sorts listing all of their results for 1674. There are two maps on Seneffe, "Abbildung der Schlacht bei Seneffe, 1674" and "Plan der Schlacht bei Seneffe, 11. August 1674". Both are viewable on-screen as html images and downloadable as pdf files. The second one is the best, IMHO, and seems to correspond with other sources.

link

Hope this helps, Seneffe is not well-documented in English and many foreign-language sources are just now being discovered and translated.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Thanks

The gaming possibilities for Seneffe are great.

The battle although very big can be broken down into four smaller actions;
1. The Commbat at Seneffe
2. Rear guard action before St. Nicholas
3. The action at St. Nicholas
4. the battle at Fayt

What if could be second day battle at Fayt..

Interesting commanders: The Great Conde and William III.

And the regiments involed: French cavalry in their hayday, Spanish Terico's, Imperials, Dutch Foot Guards, etc.

Captain;

Indeed! Much the same way I feel about the 2nd Battle of the Dunes near Dunkirk in 1658.

Spanish – Actual Spanish Tercios, Royalist English (with the Duke of York), Irish, Walloon and German mercenaries, and Frondé French rebels under the personal command of Condé.

French – The "cream" of the French army under Turenne with New Model English under Lockhart.

Unique terrain and situations – The Spanish commanding a 50 meter high Great Dune to anchor their line, the French force-marching cavalry along the beach at low tide in a flanking move, English naval supporting gunfire on the Spanish position, the Spanish Commander (Don Juan de Austria) failing to bring any artillery up from his train (relying on his "superior position" to prevent Turenne from fighting), the English New Model troops becoming "impetuous", or rash, disregarding orders and charging up the 50 meter dune multiple times until they took it (with help from supporting fire from French commanded shot), Condé personally leading multiple cavalry charges against the French lines until finally repelled by the Gardes Francaises and Gardes Suisse.

To his death, Condé claimed that he could have won the battle if Don Juan had not been given overall command. And who knows, he might have. Dr. Picouet's summary is a good one:

link

This battle was gamed at the recent Historicon by the members of the Boston Trained Band, who won an award for their efforts.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

I am currently reading 'The Great Conde' by Eveline Godley. Older book publish in 1915 (From RMC Library). For the Dunes, Conde before the battle began, tried to get Don Juan to withdraw. Present were Conde, Don Juan, the Duke of York and the Duke of Gloucester. Don Juan says he will not withdraw because he feels it will be the 'greatest day in Spanish Arms'. Conde replies it would be a 'great day enought if you consent to a retreat'. Once more Don Juan persisted till the The Conde turned to the Duke of Gloucester and asked abruptly "were you ever in a battle?" the Duke replied "No Monsieur". "Well", said Conde "in a half an hour you will see us lose one". And without another word turned from the group, going directly to his appointed post as leader of the left.

When Conde died upon hearing the news Louis XIV said "I have lost the greatest man in my kingdom".

cheers
Edward

I just found the thread while doing some online research> I should have known TMP would be one of the places I should look. What prompted this was that while looking for colonial figures on the Copplestone Castings website I saw the banner for his "Glory of the Sun" line. Intrigued I followed the link. Loved the figures and I already collect and game the English Civil War and therefore was interested in the period after but before the Age of Reason. Wow! So I do some search see the Battle of Seneffe and here I am. Very interesting era with the Dutch, England, France, Spain and many other players in the mix. I must learn more. Sounds like a wonderful period for naval battles as well as ground action.

Did the armies at Seneffe have standard uniforms as per the League of Augsburg Period. For example French Guards in Blue, Swiss Guards in Red and normal infantry in off white/grey?

What about the Dutch, Spanish and Imperialist?

C of D, is the Godley book worthwhile or just a collection of (probably spurious) "colourful anecdotes"?

Did the armies at Seneffe have standard uniforms as per the League of Augsburg Period. For example French Guards in Blue, Swiss Guards in Red and normal infantry in off white/grey?

What about the Dutch, Spanish and Imperialist?

Not sure whether the French had started wearing their gris-blanc yet. In the 1660's, they were supposed to have worn red.

Did the armies at Seneffe have standard uniforms as per the League of Augsburg Period. For example French Guards in Blue, Swiss Guards in Red and normal infantry in off white/grey?

What about the Dutch, Spanish and Imperialist?

The answer is 'probably not'. It's hard to find period information and period plates and drawings depicting troops around 1674 don't say that much either. Also the word uniform could mean "of the same cut", in stead of "of the same colour".

You can check my blog for information on some of the regiments like the Marines, Godard van Reede or the Dutch Guards. Info on period Spanish troops is extremely difficult to get. I have posted some info on the troops of the Bishopric of Munster as well.

Blog:
rampjaar.blogspot.com

I live not far from the place of the battle. And i lived in the village where the Prince de Condé took a rest (i think before the battle but not sure).

Huevans,
Looking for information about the French uniforms about this period. Where did you find the information that the French wore red in the 1660's ?

Hello huevans, sorry for the latness of my reply from your question above ref the Godley book. I was just going through some of my old post and saw your post above.

Yes the Godley book is a good source. IT is mostly about the life of The Grande Conde with coverage of his campaign's. There is a chapter on the Campaign of Seneffe.

I know we touched a little bit on uniforms above. In the Godley book a ref is made about an attack carried out by the Swiss Guard at Seneffe. Do we know if they were wearing their traditional Red jackets at this time?

Did the Dutch and French Foot Guards wear their blue. I'm thinking if any of the regiments had a standard colour uniform in the Franco-Dutch War it would be the guards or household troops.

Both France and the Dutch had brigades recruited from England/Scotland. I don't know if any of these regiments fought at Seneffe ( I think the French-English Brigade were with Turenne) but I'm thinking they may of been dressed in the red. Cromwell's Regiments all wore red when serving with the French in the Franco-Spanish War.

I hope the 'Glory of the Sun' range of miniatures which I believe are suited for this period comes out with figures for the Prince of Orange and The Grande Conde.

This would be an excellent Wargame/blog project. Need to do some more research, but the miniatures require are becoming available.

cheers

@captain of dragoons:

link

Thanks Rampjaar, great link and info.

cheers
Edward

Hello Rampjaar

I was looking at your site. Excellent information, very interesting period the Franco-Dutch War and the Netherlanders, the Sun King and William of Orange.

I did look at some of the post on Marlborough, I take it that your not a fan?

Hello gents

Do we have a idea of any sources on what the ratio of Pike to Shot would have been for the Dutch, Spanish, Imperial and French Armies at Seneffe. Did regiments at this time have grenadiers or was that later.

And from the post on Rampjaar's blog on the battle it seems that dragoons fought on foot. At this point of their devolpment dragoons were mounted infantry as compared to later in the period of LOA/WSS where they began to be used as cavalry.

Any idea on artillery?

Captain;

Not trying to put words in friend Rampjaar's mouth, but as a Dutchman whose period of interest is specifically the Franco-Dutch War of 1672-1678, he wouldn't be likely to be a big fan of John Churchill.

Young Mr. Churchill fought with the English Brigade in French service throughout the War, first taking command of the 2nd battalion of Monmouth's Royal English regiment in 1674 after Sir Basil Skelton was recalled to England in that year. Both Churchill and Monmouth were cited for bravery in dispatches by Turenne at the Siege of Maastricht, and then the Brigade joined Turenne's Rhineland campaign against Montecuccoli's Imperialists until Turenne's death in 1675, and then under the Prince de Condé until demobilization in 1678. Churchill was again cited for his actions at the Battle of Entzheim in 1674 and again at the Battle of Turkheim that same year. He was later active in the Alsace campaign leading up to Turenne's death at Salzbach after which he served under Condé. He had close ties to the Court at Paris and to Louis' Minister, Louvois, often being mentioned in dispatches.

Not a popular fellow with the Dutch in the years 1672-1678, and truthfully not afterward either as his own "PR machine" often minimized Dutch accomplishments to his own advantage.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

@Captain of Dragoons

IIRC I posted some contemporary pictures of the battle and they show a ratio of 2:1 shot to pike. A lot depended on the local commanders but I think for the 1672-1679 period (I base this on Olaf van Nimwegen's works) this will be a realistic assumption. Dragoons were used as dragoons: sometimes as foot (like the battle at the fortress of Aduarderzijl, or the re-taking of Coevorden), sometimes as cavalry. At Seneffe the artillery played a crucial role defending the last line of defense. They were deployed at the outer flanks, I have a drawing showing at least 12 guns.

@Sir William: Marlborough was never popular amongst dutch military, not amongst dutch military writers for the reasons you just mentioned. Dutch politicians though, didn't want a dutch overal commander like William III, because it would gibe him not only military power, but also political power. I realise Marlborough is some kind of godlike hero in the english language press, but in hindsight he didn't achieve a lot. He could win battles but not a war, he screwed up at Ekeren, and blamed Coehoorn for this.

Captain;

My own research, primarily on the French, supports Rampjaar's estimate of at least an average 2:1 ratio. Dr. Picouet's excellent "Tercio" web site offers the same 2:1 ratio for both the French and the newer Tercio's, and a slightly higher proportion of pikes under the Swedish model just prior to the GNW.

One thing does stand out among the various examples given however, the New Model English brigade that joined Turenne in 1658 for the Dunkirk campaign and the later English Brigade under Monmouth that joined Turenne are both noted to have been short of musketeers. At 2nd Dunes (Dunkirk) in 1658 the English are noted to have been organized at close to a 1:1 ratio, which Turenne supplemented by the use of French commanded shot in 200-man detachments as fire support, particularly from the French Montgomery-Duras Regiment.

Later, during the Entzheim campaign in 1674, Churchill was placed in command of combined English shot for the action in the small woods that pinned the Imperialist center. It is also of interest that prior to embarking for France, Churchill was in the Lord High Admiral's Regiment, which was composed entirely of musketeers.

Finally, in both the Franco-Spanish Wars and the later Franco-Dutch War, Turenne did not treat the regiment as a tactical unit except in the case of the French and Swiss Guards and possibly the regiments of the "Vieux Corps". He showed a marked tendency to combine elements of different regiments into tactical "battalions" on an as-needed basis. At the Battle of Entzheim both French and English elements of different regiments were temporarily combined into tactical formations that suited Turenne's battle plan. There are multiple maps, by French engineering officers, in the Marburg Digital Archive showing French deployments with multiple names assigned to the same formations. Whether he was able to maintain any kind of a standardized ratio of pike to shot is open to question.

There are numerous sources citing the presence of Grenadiers in the French units by 1674, however there is little or no evidence of them being stripped and converged. They were used primarily as piquet companies for defense of the battalion's flank. The little evidence that I have seen of detached service was in siegework, particularly at Maastricht, where they were deployed by company for specific tasks. Dr. Picouet cites a single company of 48 Grenadiers plus command in a full-strength French battalion of 678 men and officers in 1674.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Hello Bill it seems that for the Seventeenth Century the big ones are The Thirty Years War and now a resurgence for the Grand Alliance War and Spanish Succession with new rules and figures coming out from a few companys and wargamers.

The Franco-Spanish and Franco-Dutch Wars are sandwedged between the two but what commanders! The Grande Conde, Turenne and Montecucculi.

What rules do you use when refighting 'The Dunes'? Have you ever gamed the other encounters between Conde and Turenne like the breaking of siege lines at Arras (1654) and Valenciennes (1656).

Interesting comments about the combining of regiments to form tactical battalions.

Speaking of 'The Dunes' part of the Spanish Army was the a French contingent that was fighing for the Great Conde. The accounts I have read of the battle was that Conde covered the withdraw with his cavalry. Do we know what his cavalry was called – Perhaps Regiment Conde? Did Conde have any French Infantry?

Cheers
Edward

Captain,

The study of the 2nd Dunes is almost an exercise in frustration. Most Anglo sources tend to focus on the heroic accomplishments of the New Model Brigade capturing the large dune. Most French sources focus on Turenne's flanking march along the beach, the use of naval gunfire as support, and his personal rallying of the Gardes Francaises and Gardes Suisses to counter-attack Condé and his defense in depth to counter Condé's cavalry-heavy command. Here are some of the better sources and the conflicts:

link

According to Dr. Picouet, Condé was in command of French Frondé rebels, two 500-man infantry battalions (Persan and Guitau), a detachment of commanded shot guarding the canal, and 22 cavalry squadrons totaling 3,000 horses, but none named.

link

Mitch Williamson of the "War and Game" site agrees with Dr. Picouet on most points, but also credits Condé with command of the Walloon and German infantry battalions present.

digam.net/?dok=2485

The best single source that I have seen is a deployment map in the collection of the Marburg Digital Archive done by de Beaulieu in 1658. This is an Adobe pdf file that can be greatly enlarged, but the handwriting is still difficult to decipher. This map (which I believe to be the most accurate and whose totals agree with Dr. Picouet's numbers) credits Condé with command of the following:

(facing the Spanish/Allied army)
1st Line – 2 battalions of Walloons (may have been Condé's, they are not attributed to the Duke of York anywhere that I've seen), 2 battalions of Irish (as the Walloons above), one battalion of Germans as Serinschen/Doumares, one battalion as Guitault, 3 cavalry squadrons (2 as Condé and one as Clemances) one battalion as Persan, and the commanded shot detachment simply ID'd as "Peleton".

2nd Line – 7 squadrons, as follows, Beraresenté, Guitault, Persan, Meille, Petit Anguisares, Anguisares, Petit Condé

3rd Line – 4 squadrons, as follows, Bouteville, Restieasnel, Baurecsis, Romainville

4th Line – 4 squadrons, as follows, Rochefort, Noisfalaise, Morieil, la Suserres

5th Line – 4 squadrons, as follows, Ollio, Custein, Limbeck, Dierne

While many of the names are probably inaccurate due to the hand lettering, squadrons (and possibly even battalions) would have been Frondé rebels and any names used would probably have been that of the commander of the day.

I have fought the 2nd Dunes once with Gush rules and the members of the Boston Trained Band staged a re-fight at last year's Historicon using Peter Pig's "Regiment of Foote" rules with some special mod's.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

I wonder if modified Father Tilly rules would work for the Franco-Spanish War?

I have recently purchase the rules 'Beneath the Lily Banners 2nd Edition' by Barry Hilton. These rules are for the period 1660-1721. After reading them I think these will be a good set of rules to wargame Seneffe with.

For miniatures I am looking at the new Warfare-Miniatures (although maybe made for the later Grand Alliance War) and/or Copplestone's 'Glory of the Sun' Line.

Still looking for more info on the battle and armies of the Franco-Dutch War.

cheers
Edward

Hello Sir William, are you still out there?

Been a while for this thread but I was surfing the League of Augsburg Forum last night and one of the members posted the link for the updated Terico site:

tercio1617.fr.nf

It looks like the order of battles for both our interest in the Dunes and Seneffe have been updated.

cheers
Edward