"Cormorant gunship/dropship ideas?" Topic

The Federal Army VTOL gunship/dropship, the Cormorant, is currently being designed. It will have a swappable belly to either act as a gunship or as a dropship for a squad of soldiers.

I am a big fan of the P-38 and some of the aesthetics of that craft will be in the Cormorant, though obviously not too many!

The basic design is now coming together, but any ideas on kitout are very welcome, although I hope you will understand that they might not make the final design. I'm especially interested in ideas about the load of the gunship belly, as the dropship belly is already pretty obvious. What sort of weapons etc would you want to see mounted on it? (Both the variants will have a chin turret with dual light cannons, and missile pods.) Thanks!

If you slapped some rather large turbofans on each side you'd manage to create something that shows up a lot in sci-fi these days but has no 15mm presence whatsoever.

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or

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both work well.

It's going to have engine pods on either side, but fixed pointing down. They can then represent whatever the gamer wants them to be. They won't be round turbofans -- I think there actually are some current 15mm offerings that have such engines.

There really aren't, not unless it's from one of the decidedly less popular manufacturers. I think GZG's got the closest with their small turbofans, but there's nothing in the large disc category of turbofans currently offered in this scale.

It's your ship, though, so don't mind me. I tend to buy things on their own merits, assuming I have the cash.

"These are a few of my favorite things":
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link (a bit obvious, I know),
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For me personally, the less "spaceship" and more "near-future gunship" looking the better.

PS. Thanks for taking input!

I'd like to see reactive armor on the sides and front.

Some sort of extending dish or antenna would be nice.

Multiple egress doors instead of one big "garage" door.

Since you're making them modular, it would be nice to have options for a command version, a CASEVAC version and a vehicle carrier version, in addition to an infantry carrier.

Astranagant:
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Also sci fi gamers like to use toys in their gaming and there's a certain gunship type craft with turbofans that I assume is readily available as a toy.

Root canal, yes, two doors, one on either side. Will also have door gunners made for either side, to show the dropship giving fire support after it's dropped off its passengers (or if it's being used for patrols).

Save yourself a few bucks and re-use the metal "wing guns" from the Federal Heavy Tank in upside-down turret sockets. Four or six or eight(!) of those in two rows on the belly with maybe a few racked missiles between them and you've got your "Puff" gunship for the far future, and enough suppressive fire to dissolve a Space Demon assault or make a Garn flinch. Those gun pieces are simply amazing – I was actually meaning to ask you about whether you'd sell them seperately for conversions.

Also has the obvious advantage of giving a more unified look to the Federal vehicle designs if you re-use a component weapon system like that, don't you think?

Interesting idea BWS, though it will only save me money if you can figure out a way to put the heavy tank's pewter tracks and heavy cannon on the gunship too!

Glad you like the defense cannons on the tank -- I'll see about getting the designer the stl file for the tank and see if he can use it.

I'm surprised gamers don't want heavier ordnance on the gunship.

"I'm surprised gamers don't want heavier ordnance on the gunship."

I do! I do!

I like Martians suggestions too!

You didn't have the wing guns done as a seperate mold like the Mekanoid ball mounts? What a nuisance.

You could use the tracks on another vehicle – a pair of them would support a light tracked vehicle nicely (maybe a logistics tractor or scout), or you could use three and do a "trike" or "reverse trike" configuration akin to that Neo-Sov heavy that Brigade did recently. A reverse trike heavy tank destroyer might even give you a use for the heavy cannon bit, mounted along the whole length of the hull as a fixed weapon.

I suppose you might be able to shove the heavy cannon into a gunship as well, maybe pointing out the rear as a "stinger" weapon – but it better not have much recoil, especially if your thrusters are fixed-attitude. At least it'll be the reverse of the Warthog problem – you'll see a speed burst when you pull the trigger, rather than slowing down. There's your "heavy" option, anyway.

See previous comment on "unified look" for a not-strictly-monetary reason to consider that option.

The mechanoid pulse cannon is the only metal piece on the dictator. The federal heavy tank has other metal pieces and it would have been crazy to make a mould for each separate piece. That said, I can always get the stl file to the designer (different designer on the gunship) and he can just design around that piece. I can use it as the chin gun, for instance. So good suggestion!

Google-fu produced a few ideas I like:

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"I'd like to see reactive armor on the sides and front."

I second that would be cool

I would also be interested in more of a Hind-D or A-10 Warthog approach to armor. Something that can land in a hostile LZ, shrug off small arms fire and have a chance against being reduced to scrap by an RPG.

I also like the idea of door gunners and anything else that can provide fire support. Perhaps automated grenade launchers to spray wood lines or areas of cover to suppress the OPFOR while the troops embark or disembark.

The most important feature I would like to see is the option for landing gear deployed. Aircraft in my skirmish games rarely fly they are something to get in and out of.

I like EVERYTHING Dragon Gunner just said!

Sponsons for Fast-roping Special Forces teams down while hovering.

Door gunners are great.

a grapple that can pick up or drop a Jeep/type vehicle.

DG it will Definitely have landing skids of some kind.

When you say you like the Hind and A-10 approach to armour, that means internal armour, doesn't it?

@Khurasan

I'm not an engineer and barely understand design structure. I am more interested in function and if it looks cool. Make something that looks like it could take some damage and keep on flying. Not a sleek aluminum craft that is built for speed.

"Flying AFV" design motif good, yes. Spindly dragonfly, not so. IIRC the Feds have limited A-grav tech anyway, so aerodynamics should be a secondary consideration to aesthetics.

In terms of game purposes I would like something for Ambush Alley games that I can justify having it land or loiter in the combat zone. It has enough survivabilty it can hop from objective to objective picking up and dropping off troops while providing fire support.

When you say 'dropship', I still picture the one from Aliens: Chunky, not aerodynamic, barely looks like it can fly, and carrying enough firepower to start a war all by itself.

All that said, I thing the Aliens dropship is *too* blocky to survive reentry. So, that design idea, but a little more space shuttle sleek.

I actually see dropships and gunships as being two very different things.

Dropships I see as being a big brick, armoured to survive AA fire and atmospheric re-entry, maybe some vestigal stub wings for maneauvering on final, but not something designed to loiter about. Get down fast and get the troops out.

Gunships I see more like the Hind/Apache/Avatar Gunship types. Armoured to defeat small arms and light AA, but not so heavy that they can't skim the treetops and get a few branches in their teeth. Armed with missiles, rockets and guns so you can choose the appropriate response.

G.

1) Interface- & retrieval-capable. Meaning, capable of landing troops from orbit, or retrieving them. So, no huge fans – they do look cool, but not appropriate for an interface lander.

2) Durable – multiple engine pods, so it can survive losing one or two. Armour can be internal, like the A-10's bathtub, so durability doesn't necessarily mean, "looks like a brick" – bricks have trouble reaching escape velocity. :)

3) I like the idea of multiple belly-mounted rapid fire weapons for clearing a LZ. If we're talking about interface-capable craft, the gunship versions should have v-long-range guided missile racks for taking out opposition over the horizon and some sort of direct-fire heavy weapon for removing anything that's left, up close and personal. I don't see that there would be much use for deadfall ordnance.

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EDIT: Looks like Goober and I have different ideas on the aerodynamics of bricks. :D

Actually, if a drop ship needed to clear a LZ, it could carry a daisy cutter bomb if the ground is forested enough. You'd drop it before firing retros, so it would hit first, and clear a landing site ( plus getting rid of resistance too! ).

Other than that, dropships would be lightly armed, perhaps with small autoturrets to provide suppression.

Gunships would pack MUCH more firepower, and perhaps could carry a small crew of special-ops or marines if needed.

"Actually, if a drop ship needed to clear a LZ, it could carry a daisy cutter bomb if the ground is forested enough"

Its a heavy one shot item with significant amounts of collateral damage (if that matters). If your going that route prep the objective with orbital bombardment cruise missiles then deploy the dropship.

Discussions about escape velocity and reentry heat are pretty iffy. The Feds have A-grav tech they use on their wheeled APCs already. Dropships and gunships will have even better versions, and if you can apply thrust slowly (relative to today's rockets) but steadily over long periods, all the problems with orbital insertion go away. Of course, if you dawdle too much, you make yourself vulnerable to defensive fire, so there's still good reason for military craft to have the design specs for some degree of speed, hopefully combined with good maneuverability and plenty of e-war spoofing capacity.

I don't think I mentioned aerodynamics, but obviously you need to be able to get through the atmosphere to the ground, which means no exposed weapon pylons, fiddly bits or anything that will snap of in a fiery streak as you burn across the sky from orbit. Belly guns and ducted fans, unless made from an unobtanium and handwavium alloy would seem to be things that would fall into this category for me – on a dropship at least.

I really meant brick as in a big lump of armour to survive the transit and a couple of AA hits on the way in – brick – big and tough.

Of course, this is just MHO :)

G.

"which means no exposed weapon pylons, fiddly bits or anything that will snap off"

Retractable weapons much like todays modern landing gear?

"I really meant brick as in a big lump of armour to survive the transit"

If thats the case why not go with drop pods?

I just got a fresh supply of handwavium!

Thank goodness because these models do not actually need to descend from orbit, but they do need to convince and satisfy gamers of their function.

That said, to the extent possible, I will try to make the pods and such look like they can be retracted.

How about a vehicle designed to be slung underneath. A fast attack type, vehicle lands, releases and since crew is already in it takes off.

In the spirit of military modeling, I'd prefer external fittings that would be removable in "real life" to be add-ons instead of molded onto the model. Reactive armor, gunpods and fuelpods, RCV droppers, etc.

I like the idea of a Hind-D done as a near-future gunship/dropship.

I hope to have some images to show you all soon! Thanks for the input, it's appreciated.

@khurasanminiatures – looking cool is absolutly most important – as long as there is room to paint a sharks mouth on it to look even cooler!

@Dragon Gunner – Drop pods – indeed, I also think there is room for a semi aerodynamic slab to make a precision-ish landing, and then take off again, kind if like a WW2 landing craft in space. The old Battletech Lepoard fits the bill to my mind.

Looking forward to seeing the WIP images :)

looking cool is absolutly most important

Absolutely!

I like the idea of a Hind-D done as a near-future gunship/dropship

Me too. Like this: picture

but with Hind-D rounded edges: picture

Twin tail like the P38 would be cool on a Hind-D design.

Mostly, I really want to see a break away from the Aliens/Cobra gunship design.

Cheers
Mark

Just make the model big enough that it looks like it can carry a squad of men, if not a platoon. A lot of the dropships I've seen on the market look like they can carry about five men, if that.

Marks above two links are great concept art.

Love those anime gunships mark.

Another vote for the Hind look on my end though. Twin tail booms is perfect for slapping a rear troop door between.

-Eli

If you really are a nerd (like I am), the Aliens Colonial Marines Tech Manual actually mentions 4-5 different dropships and strikeships. There's the UD4 that we see in the movie, a medium-lift version with much less firepower and more cargo space, two different models of strikeships, and an in-development heavy-lifter to deliver a tank or two to the battlefield.

K, as much as I like the Tribal class, I'd suggest something a lot meaner looking. No forward-swept flying wings, something stubby, mostly lifting body. Twin tail booms is OK (but reminds me of the horrible GW Valkyries).

Starting from something like the old Leopard dropship, add a couple 'door guns' in ball turrets, and some fold-out wings/bays like the Aliens dropship. I think you're going to end up with some similarities in shape, just because of convergent evolution (the reason dolphins and sharks look broadly similar)

I think the Aliens model makers got it right.

An excellent design for fast insertions, presumably reasonably well armored, with a decent payload capacity.

It appeared to be fairly maneuverable, able to withstand the high-G's of reentry (rugged), and well laid out.

The role of the gunship in the future I see is going to be taken over by drones. Why expose crew to ground fire when you could have a bad ass model airplanes fill the skies knocking out the defenders then land the troops. Retrevial boats might even be drones landing without fear right where the grunts need them again without exposing crew.

If you really think about it these ideas are Vietnam era thinking. Having AI or remote pilots on a CnC ship would be much more effective.

At this point, anything interesting is welcome.

All talk of realism is fun and entertaining, but unrealistic.

If it looks functional in some measure then it is sure to be thumbs up once it is cast and available.

Good luck with your projects.

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A few quick searches shows the variety of dropship/gunship fun that is out there as designs, potential along, in, and out of the box.

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I am sure yours will fit right in line and be equally interesting.

I am a little confussed to be honest. Is this a vessel to take troops from an orbiting ship to the planet surface, or is it an atmospheric craft using tilt rotors/jets to transport troops already on the surface?

Yes

LOL @ Tabletopwarrior.

I think a good compromise on all the roles has been acheived by the Reaper sculptor Neil Nowatzki in the Merlin link which serves in my 6mm NAC dropwings; Capable of lifting in up to an MBT and acting to clear some of the LZ with missiles and lasers, it is both shuttle and attack craft in one.
However, it has limited armour and loiter time over target zones, so a gunship would be useful as well; I am thinking that such a craft would be more blocky and tough-looking, and carry a lot of weaponry where this craft has internal cargo space.
Just an idea for inspiration.

Two late entries into the fray:
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The first one looks like a Dropship to me, and the second the much-desired Gunship model.

I figured the first could be a near-future version of the Spectre gunship.

The model is actually being designed now. It's a complex process but I really like how it's coming along so far!

Just looking at NASA's Mars Design Reference Mission 5.0, and the landers are blocky things like the Apollo LEM. They come in in a bullet-shaped shroud/aeroshell that's jettisoned when it gets below subsonic. Build it like a Hind, because not much besides prayer will protect it during entry & descent anyway. Send in a dropship into a hot LZ with fancy, reusable thermal soak tiles like the shuttle, or even high temperature metals, and you'll get something like this…

<<Look! The foolish humans send more cans of meat!>>
<<Sergeant, target that flaming object 60km up. Yes, just one gun array. No need to waste energy cells.>>

Expendable Ablatives are the best defense against laser (the Galileo drop probe resisted a 1GW/m^2 heat pulse when dropped into Jupiter), and bits of aeroshell scattered around you will help you survive to landing (Thus Spake Robert Heinlein). Maybe the gunship can retain a still-smoking section on its belly so that it looks like an aeroshell segment from the ground…

There's a lot of whacky ideas in the real world. Blue Origin's New Shepherd is a dropship that actually lands on its nose.

In terms of aesthetics, how about a limited-view armoured cockpit? With virtual cockpits, you really don't need armoured glass, which is an engineering and combat liability… just have a few panels for emergency and cool looks?