"Variant BattleTech Discussion" Topic

I've played classic BattleTech off and on for years; it was a lot of fun when I was in high school, and I played it in college as well, and got out of it as a regular game about the time they put out the Clans.

We found that FASA's game balance had some issues, like nobody with any brains ever building a Mech with ammo based weapons.

We made the following house rules:

1) Halve all movement rates; round half hexes up to the next level. I THINK we experimented with triple strength myomers allowing you to do a sprint of double movement rate, based on the early B-tech novels.

I seem to recall that we halved the speeds needed to make a to hit penalty on a fast moving unit, or eliminated them completely depending on our mood and desire for simplicity.

2) Make the hex scale 100 meters per hex. I think we left the turn length unchanged. I know we left weapon ranges unchanged.

3) We went to a phased movement system, using a 12 phase movement chart stolen from Champions. You could deficit spend MPs to get into terrain hexes. When you fired a weapon on a phase, it had a cycle time (in phases) equal to the heat generated. So an AC/5 would fire on phase 1, cool on phase 2, fire on phase 3, and so on. A PPC that fired on phase 1 could fire again on phase 11 (if you were mad enough to do so...). An MG could fire every segment, and suddenly the hideous amounts of ammo you got made sense.

4) Heat dissipation happened at the turn break between phase 12 and phase 1 of the next turn.

These changes did a number of things to the game.

1) A couple of people we played with liked the fact that machine guns could actually go out to "the right ranges", sort of.

2) It made all those gun-toting bipedal ammo explosions waiting to happen suddenly make sense. An AC/5 could fire up to 6 times in a turn, with low total heat buildup.

3) The reduced movement rates tended to make fights more about "move and take cover and shoot" rather than wade out into the blast furnace of combat. This was, depending on taste, either a good thing or a bad thing.

We didn't have a good way to handle jump jets -- for the most part, we assumes that a jump took 1 segment in length for every hex it moved, and your max altitude was equal to half the distance you jumped. You could fire from mid-jump, and provided you landed safely and waited 3 segments after landing, could combine jump and ground movement in the same action. (Though combining them both with firing was asking for hideous penalties.)

The phased movement system meant that the initiative system could more or less go away

We converted the skills to +1, +2, etc, and just treated them as a modifier to the die roll rather than remembering that this mechwarrior needed a base to hit of 3 instead of 4 at short range.

We were thinking about putting up a situational awareness skill -- you could specifically track a number of units equal to your SA skill -- they were the only ones you could shoot at. To spot a 'Mech not on your list in cover, you rolled a to-hit roll using SA instead of gunnery. (The SA skill was being advocated by some guys in Army ROTC. At the time it was proposed, I didn't like it. As I've gotten older, it's grown on me.)

My takes:

"We found that FASA's game balance had some issues, like nobody with any brains ever building a Mech with ammo based weapons."

Huh... Ammo Weapons (Ballistic Weapons) are some of the least heat intensive weapons in the game. In some cases this becomes a moot point when you start talking about Double Heat Sinks. But, it has been my experience that some ballistic weapons, LRMs for instance are some of the best weapons to have.

"1) Halve all movement rates; round half hexes up to the next level. I THINK we experimented with triple strength myomers allowing you to do a sprint of double movement rate, based on the early B-tech novels."

Why?

To be honest, I was actually thinking of doubling the rates and ranges of everything. This, in my opinion, makes the game play faster.

"3) We went to a phased movement system, using a 12 phase movement chart stolen from Champions. You could deficit spend MPs to get into terrain hexes. When you fired a weapon on a phase, it had a cycle time (in phases) equal to the heat generated. So an AC/5 would fire on phase 1, cool on phase 2, fire on phase 3, and so on. A PPC that fired on phase 1 could fire again on phase 11 (if you were mad enough to do so...). An MG could fire every segment, and suddenly the hideous amounts of ammo you got made sense.

4) Heat dissipation happened at the turn break between phase 12 and phase 1 of the next turn."

That doesn't make sense... How can you "cool on phase 2" when the heat dissipation happens only between phase 12 and 1???

Do you mean, "recharge/reload on phase 2?"

"2) It made all those gun-toting bipedal ammo explosions waiting to happen suddenly make sense. An AC/5 could fire up to 6 times in a turn, with low total heat buildup."

If you have a problem with ammo explosions, think CASE. Or, install only what ammo you really need and augment with energy weapons. You can take MG ammo in 1/2 ton lots, you know (at least that's how I remember it being).

Take the Rifleman, for instace. This guy has two AC5s, but only 1 tom of ammo for the pair. That means, that under normal combat conditions, you burned up most of your ammo before there's a threat of it getting lit up. Too many people build 'Mechs thinking, "I need lots and lots of ammo, so I don't run out." When, in reality, their machine will be dead long before they even come close to expending even a modest ammo payload.

"3) The reduced movement rates tended to make fights more about "move and take cover and shoot" rather than wade out into the blast furnace of combat. This was, depending on taste, either a good thing or a bad thing."

I would tend to think that it would bog the game down too much.

My thinking is, hey computers are really doing the targeting, or at least assisting the Mechwarrior in targeting. And, really how does a 30 foot tall walking building move fast enough where it could dodge gunfire? So, why not eliminate defensive movement mods? That will compel your players to head for cover... If that's all they got protecting their butts. :-)

Nice ideas... I may try it.
Cheers!

That's very interesting. I like the phased turn idea, especially with the weapons.

BL2, the speeds were halved, while the hex size was doubled. He did this, so while the mechs' speed was unchanged, the weapon ranges were bumped up to a more believable level.

As for CASE, that really depends what Tech level you play. I, and many others only use TL1 Unfortunately, the Marauder tends to suffer disproportionately from ammo explosions, since all that's in the left torso is enough AC ammo to send it sky-high.

As for MG ammo, even a half-ton will do 200 damage if it explodes. don't think anything will survive that.

And when he says "AC/5 would fire on phase 1, cool on phase 2, fire on phase 3", I don't think he literally means the weapon loses heat. bad coice of words. What it seems to me is that if a weapon fires in a phase, it can next fire n phases later, where n is its heat rating. Each shot contributes to the total heat buildup for the turn, so an AC/5 can fire 6 times a turn (phases 1,3,5,7,9,11), and in doing so, will generate 12 heat (2x6). This will then be dealt with, or not, in the heat phase after 'action phase' 12.

And I agree, I may have to find an opponent to try this out with. where did I leave that Locust? maybe he'll actually use up some ammo now. :)

I know someone who, when his friends first started playing, misunderstood the fire rules. They thought you could fire any weapons as many times as you want in a turn, taking on heat with each shot. He said one of their favorite tactics was to get into close range with a MG armed mech and unload all 200 shots at once. :)

Actually, what you've discussed is pretty similar to the official Solaris VII rules, which were the backbone for Activision's engine for its BattleTech computer games. They went so far as to QUADRUPLE the ranges (leaving movement the same), with every weapon having a charge/cycle time. They also added some quirky weirdness, using FASAs erm, unique view of how the universe works (bigger guns have shorter ranges, direct fire cannons have minimum ranges - short range rockets don't, smoothbore increases weapon range - so all that fuss about rifling was just a waste of time, etc. ad nauseum) to get around minimum ranges and such, usually with compensating penalties that were more trouble than it was worth.

@AdAstraGames,
Interesting idea. I wish I could see it in action because I am best when I am learning 'hands on'.

Something you mentioned in the other thread; I too learned to play games on hex maps. I can't tell you how many times I have played various SPI and Avalon-Hill games. I loved and still love those old games but I really enjoy tabletop miniature games without hex maps. Your system may work well on the hex maps but transfering it to a hexless system may be a problem.

I agree with someone else that it might be better to expand ranges instead of halving movement especially for the miniatures game. Still that would mean that problems for certain weapons especially those that have minimum ranges. It certainly would mean a lot more movement to gain a good firing position.

One question, did it add to the length of your games?

Typhoon:

It added to the length of the game a little bit, though not as much as you'd think.

Since we pretty much stuck with published 'Mechs rather than home builts, the top speed anything got was 6 (for a Locust), after halving.

An egg timer!) helped a lot -- we'd call a phase, everyone would have a copy of the phase chart for their units, and set the egg timer for 1 minute -- everyone should be able to move their mechs one hex in a minute! If the buzzer went off, and your 'Mech wasn't moved, it didn't move this segment, and its movement was delayed to the next one.

Weapon fire sequencing was assumed to be simultaneous. One of the reasons why we were toying with a situational awareness skill was that if you had a recorded list of 'Mechs you could engage, it really reduced the "me too" firing aspects of the game.

We never implemented the SA rules, and I don't know if they'd've worked.

Did you ever do anything about the 'sandpaper' weapons v. armor issues?

nvdoyle:

Not really -- the two guys in the group in Army ROTC tried explaining ballistics penetration to the club, argued with each other incessently, and made all the rest of our eyes glaze over. The damage model was kept the same not because we liked it, but because we couldn't agree on anything to replace it with.

Insofar as I can tell, B-tech with "rule settings" makes perfect sense if you assume the guns are firing nerf bullets and the armor is made of bubble-wrap.

One of these days I'm going to be tempted to do BattleTech: The LAWG at a convention...

(Actually, I think i know how I'd make it work...hmm. I didn't THINK I'd drunk that much...)

I have read about someone using Renegade legion style damage charts for Battletech. I never heard how well it went or how they transfered Battletech armor into Renegade legion style armor.

All variants are interesting so far.

(falling over laughing)

Whew, 'LAWG', that's pretty good...and yeah, it'd require alcohol.

Yeah, Renegade Legion-style damage might work. I'd have to dig out my rules. Then again...I'd be tempted to just use RL weapons, too. Might make for a -very- interesting game.

Otherwise, once you start to change the armor/damage model radically (which you have to, to make it not be awful), you might as well just convert the 'Mechs into something more sensible, like Heavy Gear/Silhouette, or Dirtside 2. Or like I did, into Ogre Miniatures.

BattleTech: The LAWG:

First, you need a room that's got 4' hexes on the floor.

Second, everyone plays one 'Mech.

SRMs are "firefly" beanbags. LRMs are "aero dart" aerodynamic foam darts.

We probably winnow the number of ACs down to AC/5 and AC/20, using standard 2" bean bags and plush pillows for each.

No clue how to handle beam weapons. Probably beanbags of a different color.

A GM uses an egg timer and a whistle. Every player has a handkerchief.

Drop hankie in hex you're in, GM sets the timer for 15 seconds and says "Go!" Everyone runs to a hex within their movement limit, stops, and waits for the alarm to go off.

Once everyone has moved, the two people nearest you on the other side have 1 minute to look at your movement, raise their hands if they think you spent too many MPs.

Once movement is adjudicated, GM runs handkerchiefs out to people's current hexes, sets the timer and calls "Shoot!" Everyone gets 30 seconds to throw beanbags.

Hit locations get abstracted to arms, legs and torso. Head hits count as Torso, but should not be specifically targeted. Beanbags will have their damage values printed on them. Everyone carries enough beanbags to handle one salvo of their 'mech's weapons.

Heat tracking is a forearm gard with velcro patches. Maybe a chest pauldron instead. Everyone gets a vest with their 'Mech silhouette and unit designation on it, along with their movement rates.

People are encouraged to make costumes out of foam to suit as well.

Melee combat is handled with rock/paper/scissors.

...not that I have time to run it, but if someone reads this and decides it'd be fun to run at a summer Con, I'll cheerfully show up to play it and get munched. :)

I have toyed with two ideas for damage allocation in Battletech. One idea is to use 2 D10s in addition to D6s. The D10s would be percentile dice which would allow you to hit holes or weak spots in the armor. If you hit the hole then you penetrate with internally. For example, a Griffin's right arm has a been previously damaged by a 5 point Medium laser hit, the arm now gets hit by a AC 10 round and after figuring out the percent chance to hit the hole the opposing player rolls two D10's he makes his roll and hits the hole. 10 points now hit the area but only 5 points penetrate the rest do damage to the armor in the arm. The 5 internal points are Internal Structure hits and a potential critical hit is rolled.

My second idea is similar but does not use the D10s. This time you only need to divide each armor location in roughly half, assign any extra point to either section. For example, now your arm is divided into upper and lower arm locations. Your two D6s must be different colors and you assign one die to be high and the other to be low, write these down. If a shot hits an upper arm for 10 damage points and the upper arm has been previously damaged and only has 8 armor points left then 2 points go internal.

Both methods are trying to target weak spots in the armor and to exploit those spots. Unfortunately, I have not had time to try either out in a game so I do not know how they would work. I think the first method would be trying and would make a longer game. It would be interesting to try them out.

Hex Command NOVA solves alot of the problems and you can use BattleTech miniatures or create your own. www.imagineimage.org

AdAstraGames

Okay, now I'm -really- laughing!

That's a HOOT. I'd play, if someone ran it, just for the sheer delightful stupidity value. Hey, I did True Dungeon, too.

Seriously, though - were I to 'revise' BTech, I'd just use the minis and equivalent designs in Dirtside 2.

Where were you when I still played BT? Some of your home rules make more sense in game terms.

And a Battletech LAWG? Some mechs it's not possible to phyisically look like, but why not try laser pointers for beam weapons or a watergun.

Sargonarhes:

We played at University of Alaska -- Fairbanks in the late '80s when we did these house rules.

We also had fun with the 20 ton demolition derby. First place went to most kills. Second place when to "most ignominius death." (Like the guy who blew the piloting roll and landed head first in a level 1 water hex when trying to jump across a 5 hex span...)

I've been thinking of a steampunk version of battletech. The War of the Worlds could be nicely recreated using battletech double blind rules, using light mechs for the tripods V's hidden infantry.