"Gareth Glover, Waterloo Archive Books" Topic

For those of you that are Interested in Gareth Glover's Waterloo Archive Books, I have been in correspondence with him mainly about his latest Volume II, German Sources, but also on his next Volume III edition. These are what he said about Volume III.

"Hi Paul

Between Vol 2 & 4 (due 2012) you will have the entire Pflugk Harttung 'La Belle Alliance' plus much else. It has not been published simply as a translation of his work as he split letters up into pieces as each section of the book deals with different days; ie 16th, 17th, 18th etc. I have stitched the reports back together and added copious notes as usual. so you get 50% of pflugk in this book and 50% in vol 4. as you will note though I have also put in material from many other sources, as I like to represent as many different regiments that I can in each volume for balance and to widen and maintain interest for the reader.
I thank you for your kind comments on the colour plates. I work hard to find new material to complement the text and I really think the colour really enhances the overall impression. I hope you will be just as impressed with the content.
I know waiting for the next volume is frustrating, but patience they say is a virtue. And I can promise you that you will not be dissapointed with the others as I have masses of material which will be of great interest and I have kept some real gems for these later volumes. I also continue to discover even more and if I get enough support for this series (sales) I now believe I can do 8 volumes!! So if you want to see this happen please spread the word.

All the Best

Gareth"

The last few lines of his correspondence above are of interest, he also asked me to spread the word, so I am.

And:

"Paul

Always happy to drop in and comment when time allows, but as you say my writing drags me away a lot.

You asked about the next volume (due spring 2011)

It will include the following
Sir George Scovell
Ensign Ewart Scots Greys
Lt Christian Johnstone 6th Innsikillings
Lt Col Ferrior 1st Life Guards
Col George Blathwayt 23rd Lt Drags
Major General Uxbridge
Private Charles Stanley KDG
Sgt Mj Page KDG
Col John Stubbings KDG
Cornet Kinchant Scots Greys
Paymaster James Cocksedge 15th Hussars
Lt Col Sir robert Gardiner
Private John Smith 71st foot
Ensign william Lowe 73rd Foot
Capt George evelyn 3rd Foot Gds
Lt Col Ed Bowater 3rd Ft Gds
Major Heyland 40th Foot
Lt John Malcolm 42nd foot
Lt Rich Eyre 95th foot
1st Lt John Macdonald 23rd foot
Lt Col Alex Hamilton 30th Foot
Ass Surgeon Donald Finlayson 33rd Foot
Hosp Ass George Finlayson

Civilians
Sir Thomas Bradford
John Wood

Hopefully you will find these as interesting as Vol 1

But that's nearly a year away

Don't forget
The Letters of James Hamilton Stanhope 1st Ft Gds will be published 15 November this year – its my favourite I have ever worked on!

And

In January 2011
Charles Crowe of the 48th and 27th Foot in Spain comes out. It is the best written memoir I have ever seen. The 'Dickens' of the Army. I have shown Philip Haythornthwaite who agrees – it's brilliant!

So save up your pennies !!

garethglovercollection.com

Gareth"

I hope that this is of interest

Paul.

Here, Here!

Volume One "Netherlands Correspondence" is a masterpiece. The color plates are excellent.

You mean to tell me Dib you have been here the whole
time, that is so underhanded of you Buddy…

Well of course I have GB, Well, on and off l have, though
"General Brock
You mean to tell me Dib you have been here the whole
time, huh? that is so underhanded of you Buddy…"

to be honest I have been away from posting on TMP for a good 18 months, and I just haven't got the time to argue the toss on this site as well as on the other. But I still keep abreast of proceedings which are of interest to me but until now, I haven't had the inclination to post of late, though the latest Hofi controversy nearly got me going.

"Grunt1861
Here, Here!

Volume One "Netherlands Correspondence" is a masterpiece. The color plates are excellent."

I must correct you in that Volume One is British sources

Paul :)

Sorry GB but the editing above has come out a bit skew whiff. It should read like this.

"General Brock
You mean to tell me Dib you have been here the whole
time, huh? that is so underhanded of you Buddy…"

Well of course I have GB, Well, on and off l have, though to be honest I have been away from posting on TMP for a good 18 months, and I just haven't got the time to argue the toss on this site as well as on the other. But I still keep abreast of proceedings which are of interest to me but until now, I haven't had the inclination to post of late, though the latest Hofi controversy nearly got me going.

Paul :)

It appears that some confusion has led to Grunt 1861 mistakenly attributing the 'masterpiece' entitled: Waterloo Netherlands Correspondence Volume One, of which I am the author, as one of the books in the series by Gareth Glover. In addition, the superb illustrations referred to were by Gerry Embleton, and this is correct: Gerry's artwork is outstanding.

As this thread appears to be concerned with 'spreading the word' I would like to comment on several points, without wishing to detract from Gareth Glover's work, or for this to be considered anything more than a general observation on the pitiful state of publishing generally, and outside of a few small businesses, Napoleonic historian in particular. (Please note that I have communicated these points to Gareth directly in a private message.)

I have been fortunate to have received copies of both of Gareth's Waterloo volumes, the first of which is most excellent. However, I take umbridge with a misleading comment made in the introduction of the second volume, which states: 'This book is a veritable gold mine of primary source material from German units, particularly as many of these records were then unfortunately destroyed during the Second World War.' This is simply not true. Of the items reproduced in the book almost all are extant and can be found by visiting the various archives in Hannover, Wiesbaden and Wolfenbüttel.

It is clear that the second volume is drawn exclusively from printed sources, the main being Belle Alliance by Dr. Julius von Pflugk-Harttung. Although considered a superb book on the subject, von Pflugk-Harttung's Belle Alliance is not the definitive work is has been made out to be. Consultation of the original manscripts confirm that many of the accounts were not reproduced in full, and important sections were omitted. I am aware of this fact as I have recently published the second book in the 1815 Limited series on the Hanoverian contingent. This has been drawn exclusively from the original manuscripts and contains accurate translations of the original documents.

It should also be noted that VPH's papers are extant, and these confirm a number of very interesting points with regards to the nature of his research, including the fact that much was undertaken by his students. Of course, this would only be of interest to certain students and historians, and the introduction of English translations of secondary printed material will suffice many. Herein lies the difference between Gareth Glover's work on foreign contingents and that by 1815 Limited: as a professional historian I believe a manuscript source holds greater validity than a prinited source, as time and again printed items have been proven to incomplete or incorrect representations of the original documents. It is all well and good using printed material, but it should be described as primary material, and misleading comments stating that original documents are not available do nothing to assist the genuine multi-lingual researcher.

Naturally, Gareth will feel obliged to comment on these points and I welcome his or anyone else's feedback on the matter. Let us hope that we can all provide a fitting celebration of the Waterloo campaign, especially as we approach the 200th anniversary, by improving not only the quantity, but the quality of the material available.

John Franklin

I agree with John's comments about Julius von Pflugk-Harttung's book Belle Alliance, which focused on non-Prussian accounts that for the most part survived World War 2, unlike the Prussian military archives in Berlin. I believe that Pflugk-Harttung was also planning to write a book about the Prussians' actions on 18 June but never did, although he did write two long journal articles on this subject. The Pflugk-Harttung book that does fit Gareth's description as "a veritable gold mine of primary source material …, particularly as many of these records were then unfortunately destroyed during the Second World War" is not Belle Alliance but Pflugk-Harttung's previous book about the events on 15-16 June 1815 from Wellington's perspective, with the title Vorgeschichte der Schlacht von Belle Alliance: Wellington (Prequel to the Battle of Belle Alliance: Wellington). This very important study by the Prussian military archivist cites a number of documents from the Prussian archives that are no longer in existence, although handwritten copies by Pflugk-Harttung did survive among his papers in the Geheimes Staatsarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz in Berlin. I believe that John is planning to include a modern translation of Pflugk-Harttung's Vorgeschichte in his Waterloo 1815 Ltd. series at some point, which would be a tremendous help to 1815 researchers.

But as for Gareth's books, I believe they are also an important contribution to the literature on Waterloo. As far as I am concerned, there cannot be too many eyewitness accounts of the campaign, although I must admit that my own preference is for accounts written in 1815 or shortly thereafter. Later accounts are often influenced by other post-1815 publications, and memories often fade or become confused after the passage of years. The classic example of this is Zieten's autobiography from 1839, which is full of "tall tales" about how he received no orders on the morning of 18 June so he personally took the decision to advance his corps from Wavre to Waterloo and then saved "the Scots" by smashing the Imperial Guard himself. This very flawed autobiography is also the source for Zieten's account of receiving news of the French attack at 2:15 a.m. on 15 June, jumping out of bed still fully clothed, and then immediately sending messages to Blucher and Wellington. So even though this is an account by an eyewitness, it is certainly not reliable, and we must therefore always be careful when using material written after the events rather than at the time.

Greg, Thanks for your input, and yes, you are correct in stating that I am planning to publish Prussian material based on the extant material in VPH's papers, which as you say are held by the Geheimes Staatsarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz in Berlin. I have already undertaken considerable research and feel sure that this book, which will be entitled: Prussian Correspondnece Volume One – Letters and Reports from Manuscript Sources (although these are of course facsimilie copies by VPH and his students of the original documents), will add greatly to our knowledge of events. A second volume of Prussian material based on those from printed sources will follow.

May I again state that I am not attacking Gareth Glover personally, but feel statements should not be made without proper references and knowledge, and it is clear that neither Gareth or his translator have checked the material in the various German archives sufficiently to establish the facts. Printed sources are all well and good, but they cannot be called 'primary' sources, as they are clearly synthesised secondary sources. This is a mute point, as so many modern historians rely on this type of material, due to the fact that publisher are unable or unwilling to invest in new books to allow the authors to undertake the necessary research. Indeed, you will be amazed just how many authors have purchased material from the 1815 Limited on-line archive, so as to supplement their knowledge of events with reliable material, albeit in some instances that the items have been written years later.

I do not wish to turn this into a 'witch hunt', and look forward to the other books in Gareth's series, but hope that more care is taken in the future when describing the status of documentation. John