"Unacceptable Figures" Topic

I make no bones about how I feel about unpainted WWII miniatures. Don't put them on the table at one of my games. Naked lead and resin is unacceptable.

I have seen some WWII games where a scout car is bigger than a Tiger Tank. Some differences in scale can be tolerated (25mm v. 28mm) but at some point differences in scale are unacceptable (say 15mm and 28mm).

Well I recently ran into a guy who found one of my Roman units was unacceptable. This particular unit is composed of pretty well painted 25mm figures manufactured by Magic Metals -- many years ago. These are part of the Asterix and Obelisk range if you are familiar with these. Anyway they are painted in accordance with the comic book color schemes. After all they are comic book characters. BUT "they aren't real wargame figures – they are not painted in 'historical' colors" they are unacceptable!

Well different strokes for different folks I guess. I have a feeling my comic book Romans will always be my favorite Roman Unit . . .

In your opinion: What makes a figure unacceptable for use in a wargame?

So I will start:

1. Unpainted, unprimed miniatures
2. Primed but otherwise unpainted miniatures
3. Miniatures painted with a single color
4. Partially assembled miniatures.
5. Historical figures painted in a 'unhistorical fashion'
6. Unhistorical (Asterix type figures for instance) painted 'historically'.
7. Unhistorical figures painted to a fine comic book standard.
8. Airplanes that have no pilots; or tanks that have no crew; or half tracks that have no drivers
9. Painted Artillery pieces that have no base or crew (this one bugs me to no end).

Any others?

1. It bugs the you-know-what outta me!!

1-7 and 9 all bother me.

And if you do not "accept" the figures, what do you do instead?

One campaign I was in, the GM wanted to encourage people to get appropriate figures, but did not want to discourage anyone. Unpainted figures could be used, but had a minus on morale rules.

Anyway, 1-4 are right out, 8 I can live with but not my own, and 9 – huh? I can supply both sides for a couple of periods, we can play with your stuff when you have finished prepping it.

Sorry, my misread. I do 5 all the time.

Anyone have some examples – pictures – of 6 and 7? I understand the words by-the-each but the image isn't forming (except for rather out of proportion figures, but most are anyway)

10. So disgustingly well painted that they should not be allowed on the tabletop?

11. Beautiful figures on you-didn't even try felt shape terrain?

1, 4, 9.

1 and 2 don't bother me as long as the whole army isn't that way or if the owner (usually me) at least tries to make progress between games.

4 doesn't bother me if the missing part is a shield and the figure falls under the conditions of 1 or 2. Some folks don't like to attach shields before the figure is painted. <shrug>

1-4 only bug me if I know the owner has plenty of time on his hands. Beginners and the terminally overworked get cut a lot more slack.

5 is a matter of degrees and context. A serious historical game event is no place for the 4th Mary Kay Hussars, but in a Flintloque game a lot more is acceptable.

6 & 7: Meh. The specific example is a case of "find another playmate, because this one is broken." Especially since the "accepted" colors of the Roman legions are about 75% Hollywood…

8 & 9: Scale and game dependent. If the crew are treated individually in the case of overruns or similar, then they'd better be on the table. If we're playing at the "one model-one batallion" level I don't give a wet slap about artillery crew minis.

Here is an example of #7

auction

Here is an example of #7

Those are great!!

1.

Depends a little on the venue. For games at a convetion, I expect to be using painted figures – doesn't have to be pretty, just done. For games with my friends, I can tolerate unpainted lead – as long as there is progress being made over time. other wise…

1, 2, 3, 4

10. mintures with no bases – this drives me nuts as they tend to be unstable. I have one friend who regularly does this!

My chances to game are so rare, that as long as the figs are assembled, i don't think i care anymore.

1 to 7, and 9

I have used unpainted and unprimed figures in games "when I have to". I have mixed scales – 15mm cavalry with 20mm infantry. I have mixed D&D plastics with "regular" wargames figures in pulp games, for example.

I might mix a cartoon unit of Asterix Romans alongside historical troops, but I can see how they don't "fit" and might be objected to.

No. 8 is a little "much", IMO.

I focus on the game, so we start with what's ready to go. If placeholders are needed --the unpainted, the unwashed, the unloved -- they are pressed into service. My friends and I have lots of good stuff, but there is always something wanting, especially when fairly large scenario battles are in the design/testing/planning stage.

To answer the question, in a pinch anything is acceptable.

1 2 and 3 … can't use them until you painted at least three colors on them

I don't have a problem with vehicles and no crew. For my tanks, I model the Plt/CO leader's tank with a crewman in the hatch, and all the others buttoned up. This makes for a good visual reference to see "who is in charge" if it matters.

Damon.

If it is a friendly game, I wanna play. If my opponent has assembled minis, then throw them on the table and let's get going. If its a tournament situation…well, most tourney's prohibit the use of "naked lead".

With that said, I won't play with one of my own minis until I have fully painted and based it (as appropriate). Which means that in some instances, I have "gone without" that new fantastic piece that would really make the game go well for me (a la WH40K, VOR, WARMACHINE, HORDES, FOW, BFG, etc) until I have finished painting it.

So, I don't have a problem with 1 – 3, but I would like to see them painted soon. I will make "softball comments" about playing against the "Silver Army" in hopes that it encourages my opponent to get her/his minis painted.

4 Gawls me!!! I really have difficulty with the folks that show up and throw a few pieces on the table half assembled and expect me to recognize what the unit is supposed to be, especially if the game has WYSIWYG rules.

For #5, what level of "lack of detail in painting" constitutes "painted in an unhistorical fashion". OK, I can understand not painting WWII American infantry in grey or some such, but darn it, in 15mm, it is REALLY hard to see that camo pattern on the Falschirmjagers! Would that be "unhistorical" if you painted on the "base" color and didn't try to do camo?

I don't have a problem with 6 or 7 and actually appreciate the skill and imagination that goes in to trying to do that.

I have a problem with 8. I have 1/144 scale P-47s and P-38s I use for Ground Support in my FOW games. How can I paint a pilot inside the "solid" canopy? Also, what if the tank is buttoned up, how can I indicate a crew? Since the top of the half-track is open, you kinda gotta put a driver in just to make it reasonable, though.

I am with Farstar on #9. Depends on the "representation" If one artillery piece is representing a platoon or full battery, eh…

Proxying can be unacceptable if the model you are trying to use to represent another just is too far different. If you are trying to proxy a Carnivean for a Dire Troll in a HORDES game, that would be alright. If you were trying to have an Elephant Jagdpanzer (sp?) represent a JS2, maybe. But if you were using WWII infantry stands to represent AWI British Regulars, sorry…It just doesn't work for me.

As you can see, I can accept a lot of variation in the minis I play against, I just like to make sure that my minis are painted at least to a good table top standard before I will use them. Still, I would rather play, than kibitz about my opponent not having painted minis (as long as they are assembled!)

Andy Welkley
"Your Phrendlee Hevy Phyzx T-chrr"

#1 and #10.

1 through 4 plus 9.

1-5, 9.

MJC, aren't 6 and/or 7 what "disqualified" your favourite unit, though?

I've never encountered 6 or 7, but I agree with you 100% on 1 to 5 and 9.

8, I must debate, though.

Why must a closed topped tank model have crew? Except for the commander, all crew in a tank that is not open topped in combat are going to buttoned up except for the crew commander and that depends on the vehicle too – the KV-1, for example, did not have the crew commander by the hatch in the middle of the turret (according to Zaloga), while early T-34s with the huge forward opening double hatch were probably meant to be shut in combat. For tanks that had the 3 crew turrets in what has become the universal layout (gunner, commander, loader), it eventually turned out that the best way to command a tank is with the commander's hatch open, so, yeah, it's nice to have a commander figure.

But even then, there's no reason why a commander hatch cannot be open with the commander not poking his head out. There are loads of reasons why the commander would pop down into the tank – to deal with a misfire or jammed breach, plan an action with his turret crew, check a map if the sun is too bright, pick up a flare or a dropped set of binoculars, and, of course, to duck down when things get hot – it really is a pretty long process to close a hatch if shrapnel or bullets are flying over his head! Sometimes I will try to make sure that there is a head visible below the hatch, but you really only see that if you are looking at the model.

For the types of tank models in the previous paragraph, I try my best to make sure that I have an open hatch and a crew commander visible. On the other hand, I may keep the commander's hatch shut if I don't have a suitable crew figure or if I want to have the hatch shut.

And a lot of transport models nowadays (1:72) don't come with a driver figure which irritates me to no end. And I really hate aircraft models that come without pilots!
--
Tim

8. Airplanes that have no pilots; or tanks that have no crew; or half tracks that have no drivers

If the tank is buttoned up, how do you know if there are crew. Does the player need to have to show figures, on the side that are the crew? Likewise if cars have glazed windows?

I agree with 1-7, 9. But artillery does not need a base, but indeed need a crew, perhaps on their own bases. Then you can change guns with different crews.

1
the rest I can deal with

0. you haven't tried

I played 3-4 games over July 4th weekend with guys who are just learning the rules and had armies that were 90% unprimed/unpainted. They're new, they made the effort for the first game to get the figures assembled.

Next time we get together I expect to see painted and based figures, at least a unit worth. They don't paint well, or quickly, but they try.

I try to at least prime stuff, unless the plastic is in the proper color. While I can paint and weather and decal stuff, I would rather build kits and cut troops off the sprue. Unpainted and unprimed lead does look bad for WWII and modern.

Mike "Bunkermeister" Creek
bunkermeister.blogspot.com

I could live w/ 8.

Most of the above, excepting: lack of pilots/crews for vehicles and guns (I prefer gun crews, but could deal with them not being there if I must), and single color painted figures (I prefer multi-colored, but admit to having pressed some basically painted 15mm American troops into service for a WWII D-Day invasion scenario at 1:1 figure to miniature scale, for a small portion of the Omaha landings).

I think the latter had a couple of colors to them, but not as much detailing as I would have liked.

If I'm hosting to be honest 1-4 and 6-9. I would let someone off 5. I'm generous like that.

I assume that by "historical colours" most people mean, "Angus Mcbride's opinion".

4 & 9. The rest I could live with.

I assume that by "historical colours" most people mean, "Angus Mcbride's opinion".

That's one reason why #5 doesn't bother me. I've seen a fair amount of justifiable doubt extending even to WW2 so I'd be the last person to tell someone I find their paint job unacceptable due to accuracy. As to 6,7 & 8 – I remember many times where I couldn't get a specific figure or vehicle or had extras of a 'close' one and didn't want to spend the money so close enough has to do. I don't recall anyone telling me I couldn't use a USS Pennsylvania circa 1941 in a 1944 scenario even though she looked quite different.

1 and 4 for me, especially both combined.They should be placed in the hospital-box ,classed as wounded until assembled and painted properly.

Jana Wang, I would have no prob with that.
I can understand the 'need for speed' when trying out a new game.
And as long as next time you play, they are making progress on painting, then no probs there.

As for 'games in the store', 1-4 only. I no issues with anything else on this list.

No issues with anything on the list.

As others have noted, if someone continues to play a game, I like to see them at least make progress. But it's a game, ferchrissakes. 'Unacceptable'? Yeah, no.

Barbie Dolls… I hate it when people use Barbie Dolls for the Old Guard….

I'll play with anything, but 1-4 are disappointing. I would never pull that on anyone. It takes a lot of time to *really* paint miniatures, but it doesn't take long to get them prepped and put two colors on them.

Andrew

Iclapp – If the BD's have the correct uniform, is it ok then.

On the toy scene have been taken by the usefulness of pre-painted, plastic, German-made 75mm figs, especially for DBA
picture

I'm too easy-going, I guess. None of those bother me in the least.

It's a game, not a life's work. And even if it is a life's work, it's not my life, so what do I care?

None of the above?

Drinks on a wargame table bug me more!

1-4 & 8 (except for tanks) would bother me, but the rest not so much.

I don't get #9. Obviously a gun needs a crew, but why
would having it unbased be a problem?

Flintloque

There are guys that put a 75mm AT gun on the table -- no crew, no base, and call it a 'unit'.

This approach saves you the trouble of buying crew figs, and you can reduce the frontage per gun considerably which makes them harder to be fired upon (smaller foot print means less area that can be shot at) and easier to concentrate.

Not sure if this kind of 'game play' is intentional or just a by-product of the too lazy to do anything but the gun itself.

mjc

I will play with any of the above, and play-doh proxies if need be.

If it means I get a game in I'll take slpis of paper with the unit id's scrawled on them.

"If it means I get a game in I'll take…"

Actually, I would sooner play with labeled bases than unpainted figures.

If I were "The Decider" for a game, a tournament or a campaign I'd ban artillery w/o crew &/or proper transport, & dragoons w/o matching mounted & dismtd figs. I'd also insist that Wild West characters who are likely to ride a horse at some point in the game be represented afoot & behorsed if the minis are available.

Iclapp wrote:

Barbie Dolls… I hate it when people use Barbie Dolls for the Old Guard…

Well of course. Shirley everyone knows that Barbie dolls should only be used for WW1 games. Then, whenever anyone asks where the company are, you can say that you've seen them, you've seen them, they're hanging on the old Barb Dwyer.

All the best,

John.

Hate unpainted on the table but will still play against it if it's just a game to pass time..
Funny thing is some in our group are using reverse psycology on me.They try to make me feel bad about having all my stuff painted("you need a life,dude" said in a sympathetic tone) or "We are so busy with things that we don't really have time to paint like you do" implying I'm a loser with nothing else to do.My favorite was "I have other hobbies,I ride my motorcycle" Gimme a break.
If they would just say "I don't want to paint my stuff and I don't care if it's painted to play with" I would have much more respect for them.

In 25+ years of gaming, I've never seen a convention game that used unpainted figures.

Do what you like,…in the end it depends on how much self-respect you have, and whether you either care about other people's opinions and perceptions, or are bothered about their reaction….You can read all kinds of things about an individual's character from the most unlikely sources.

afraid i am much more tolerant and eco friendly. not done napoleonic before, am i going to be lynched for producing a period painted army of WW2 plastic 1:72 from my childhood?

- thinking trousers and jackets as per dominant colours, webbing white (ok no crossed belts on front may be annoying issue, helmets black for shakoes etc with detail). facings and cuff detail i can work on.

some may even fit quite well – american screaming eagle helmetless paratroops as american wars british supporting native american allies?

be gentle with me