"Best Prussian General of the Napoleonic Wars?" Topic

First Empire magazine has a wonderful profile of Blucher in its latest issue. Which leads me to wonder – who was the best Prussian general?

Alt Vorwarts himself!

'Raise High the Black flags Children! And I'll shoot the first man who shows any mercy!"

Mind you they had no shortage of talent. However Blucher was not only strategically and tactically clever, he was also Brave and modest. And modesty in a senor officer is a rare trait! When the Royal Academy in London wanted to award him a Doctorate, he said they should in that case make Gneisenau a Pharmaicst, as he made the pills that he, Blucher, administered to the frogs!

Kind Regards,

Sparker

Papa Vorwarts deserves praise.

Frederick William, hands down. He presided over both the dismantling of the decrepit army of Frederick and the introduction of the age of Moltke.

:)

Take Blucher out of 1813 and Napoleon probably wins.
Same for 1814, 1815.

I say Blücher.

Von Ziethen

This is an interesting comment, in the 1813-15 period then it is General Staff System

Blucher and Scharnhorst
Blucher and Gneisnau

It was the combination. Blucher said at a dinner in 1815 that he was the only man to be able to kiss his own brains. He got up and kissed Gneisnau on his forhead.

I would add that von Yorck was probably the most talented of the generals with von Bulow for his defence of Berlin in 1813.

Stephen

Yorck. Beethoven even wrote a march for him.

I would agree that without Blucher, the campaigns of 1813 and 1815, and perhaps 1815 would have been lost.

As for the best Prussian general, however, I would pick Yorck-cantankerous, insubordinate, touch, and very smart. An excellent tactician and leader of men.

Sincerely,
K

There was no 'general staff system' in 1813-1815. The Prussian general staff was in a very embryonic form during that period and would not grow into what it later became until after the great wars.

The Prussian general staff was inferior to the French general staff throughout the period. It did not function as well or as efficiently as the French system, as created by Berthier, et al.

Sincerey,
K

Dear Kevin
Interesting comments. No doudt you have read the writings of Clausewitz, Gneisnau, Scharnhorst, Humbolt, Bulow etc… You may come to a different conclusion. Well we differ upon this.

Stephen

I'm not a fan of the Prussian and later German staff system. All staff sections were made subordinate to the operations section which was a basic fault. And the German system failed miserably in two World Wars-Germany has never won a war.

The Prussian system that was developing from 1807-1815 was not as efficient as the French system. It later became an efficient army staff but its inherent shortcomings would become evident after 1871.

Sincerely,
K

I too would say Blucher for being so tenacious. He lost multiple battles in 1814, largely with Russian troops, and eventually came back for more.

As an aside, is Kliest (Prussian Corps commander under Schwarzenburg) regarded as a poor officer? I seem to recall reading that he was very timid, but must confess, I don't know if I've actually had a chance to read anything about him.

Erik

Who couldnt like Blucher? Everything oyu want in a general, aggressive and eccentric with a real concern for his "children"……i like Yorck as well…

Something something something, dark side, something something something, French best at everything, something something etc, zzzzzzz

10th Marines, hummmm, "never won a war"…how about the Franco-Prussian war then!!!

Gneisenau………..amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics…

the Queen of Prussia for inspiration alone…………

In the Franco-Prussian War Prussia was still Prussia. It wasn't until after the war that the German Empire was proclaimed in Versailles. During the war it was still divided up into different states with different monarchs.

Sincerely,
K

When did Gneisenau talk logistics? He was a chief of staff and a staff officer-not a logistician.

And he wanted to be so very desperately a combat commander which is why he ignored his duties as chief of staff after Waterloo and tried to lead a pursuit.

Sincerely,
K

Queen Louise led her country into a national disaster. She should have kept her mouth shut.

Sincerely,
K

["And the German system failed miserably in two World Wars-Germany has never won a war."]

1. Although it was Kevin who changed the subject from "Prussian" to "German," so he could roll out his second-favorite national bias *… Everyone (even Kevin) knows that the Franco-Prussian war was fought between the French on one side, and a coalition of German states on the other side. It was obviously "the Germans" on one side, and they won.

So you can't have it both ways. Either the Prussian staff system was good enough for the Prussians to win the FPW… or you'll have to admit that the "Germans" won a war.

2. It seems a bit silly to extend the idea of the "Prussian General Staff system" all the way to 1945, since Hitler altered the apparatus of command almost from his first year in power, and continued to alter it in dramatic ways, but if you're going to insist on including it in the example, then it seems rather obvious that the Germans beat the snot out of their opponents from 1939-41, and that the big, war-losing decisions they made were not made by a general staff, but rather by an insane dictator.

3. Or, if you'd prefer logical consistency (I'm not optimistic, but hope springs eternal), then we can agree to use your argument and say that the Germans ultimately lost WW2 – proving that their system was bad… and obviously Napoleon ultimately lost the Napoleonic Wars – which must prove that his was bad, too.

4. As for the German system "failing miserably" in World War 1, one has to wonder, then, how they managed to hold off enemies who outnumbered them more than 3:2 on multiple fronts, while defeating one of those enemies utterly (Russia), and ultimately going down to defeat only against overwhelming material and financial disadvantages and a four-year blockade.

* any minute now we're going to get the "…when they hear the sound of a drumbeat…" quote. I don't think I could get through the season without it, so don't let me down.

"Großmutter, warum hast du so scharfe Zähne?"

"Damit ich KK besser beißen kann"

Those teeth aren't sharp-they're rather dull quite like the 'wit' behind them. ;-)

Sincerely,
K

Location Zambia… near Liechtenstein, no doubt.

Probably closer to Namby-Pamby Land. Have you seen that new Geico commercial with the unsympathetic psychiatrist?

Sincerely,
K

Unfortunately I don't think we will get that commercial in the UK.

That's too bad-you'd love this commercial.

Sincerely,
K

Is everyone forgetting 'Ol Brunswick?

He was awesome.

Especially at Auerstadt in 1806-simply superb. He also started a family tradition of being shot by the French. His son continued the tradition at Quatre Bras.

His performance at Valmy in 1792 was equally outstanding.

Sincerely,
K