"Royal Welch Fusiliers caps and wings" Topic

Does anyone know the colour of the back patch on the bearskin worn by the Royal Welch Fusiliers? And did it incorporate a device? My assumption is that it will be the Prince of Wales' feathers on a blue field but this is just a guess on my part.

Also, I've read that because they were considered to be an elite unit, the Fusiliers did not have a grenadier company, but does this also mean that the battalion company had wings instead of epaulettes?

Finally, as far as I know, the British did not wear their bearskin caps on campaign in the Peninsular or Waterloo campaigns, so I was wondering when they stopped wearing them? I'm pretty sure they were still worn during the American Revolution but were they still wearing them at the start of the French Revolutionary wars?

Is it really Welch, instead of Welsh?
-Kle.

Is it really Welch, instead of Welsh?

Yes.

rwfmuseum.org.uk

Yes, the 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers did indeed have the unique distinction of being allowed to retain the ye olde time spelling of "Welch". Tradition being important and all that.

They happen to be my favourite Regiment. :)

On campaign, the Fusilier Fur Caps were dropped quite quickly as they did not last very well and were rather more difficult to replace than other headwear (and presumably far more expensive!). The Fur Caps may have been retained for parades or special occasions, but on the battlefield the Fusiliers would have worn the same shakos as everyone else. Technically, the Fur Caps were "still being worn" – they just weren't on campaign.

From 1802 the style of the fur cap was changed, and the new taller type did not slope at the back but was more rounded. It no longer had the cloth rear patch that the OP refers to (so for Peninsular and Waterloo there was no cloth rear patch – although of course, the fur caps weren't being worn on campaign in the first place!). The front plate was brass for other ranks and copper gilt for NCO's. The plate was a standard Royal Arms of Hanover and did not carry the regimental distinction at all. The back of the cap had a small grenade emblem.

Fusilier Battalions were considered slightly more elite and prestigious than normal Line and as such all companies in the Battalion, be they centre or flank, wore flank company wings. However, that said, beyond the "Fusilier" name and shoulder wing distinction, Fusilier Battalions were essentially Line Regiments and served as such. They had a light company and a Grenadier Company, just like other Line, however, as I said, all companies had Flank Company wings.

Hope that helps. :)

One further note, while on campaign and wearing the shako instead of the fur cap, the front Shako plate of the 23rd carried the emblem of the grenade. Allowing the entire battalion to wear the grenade normally reserved for the Grenadier company was another distinction of the "elite" Fusilier Battalions.

I'm pretty sure they were still worn during the American Revolution but were they still wearing them at the start of the French Revolutionary wars?
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Not on campaign,no they weren't. They were still wearing them in 1775 in Boston,but once the War got under way,those pretty,expensive caps went into storage.
Also,the back patch was red,with the Prince of Wales feathers and the Roman numeral XXIII.

Bob

The 23rd in 1781. They also went to floppy hats and plain red short jackets as well.

link

Bob

The figures I am painting are old Minifigs and even though they are historically inaccurate they are just too nice not to use them (and anyway, in my version of the Napoleonic Wars, Horse Guards often orders regiments to go into battle in full dress and with all flags flying)

Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated.

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I too am the proud owner of a minifigs Bn of 23rd Foot (Royal Welch) Fusiliers – mine also have a dark blue patch. I can't claim to have painted them though.

Wonder how many more are out there? I would hazard a guess mine are the only ones in Aussie though?

Kind Regards,

Sparker

There are many more of us than the 23rd who retain the old time (and proper, as I maintain) spelling of the name Welch.

*smile*

Rick

The "Welch" spelling was made official by Army Order 56 of 1920. Before then both spellings were used. Army Order 56 also applied to the "Welch Regiment", but not the Welsh Guards.

Maybe I missed it, but what time period are you asking about?

The 23rd in the AWI period was just an average line unit that happened to have the honorific title of Fusiliers. They were not particularly elite, at least when the war started, and saw limited combat till later. No doubt all those years in the field and some battle experience made them veterans by the time Guilford rolled around.

The bearskins were owned by the colonel, unlike the cocked hats. The colonel (later Howe) did not like to see his personal property exposed to every day campaigning, and there is some belief that none of the fusilier regiments during the AWI period ever wore bearskins. Still, it is fun to paint up a unit in them if you like.

95th:

Don's paintings are pretty good, but I suspect he sometimes take artistic license too. I have to wonder why he painted the 23rd guy you cited in a cocked, and not a round hat.

Further, his painting of the Guards at Guilford also raises questions about his choice of headware since their mods were so well documented. Also, some of the units in the painting were not close to each other at the real battle.

Finally, while his new painting of the Marines at Bunker Hill is great, the flag is sheer guesswork, as is the bastion loop lace, unless someone can cite something better than what is publicly known.

Hi histrorygamer,

Sorry, I wasn't very clear in my post. I was actually asking about the uniform for the Napoleonic period but I cross-posted to the 18th century boards because I was interested to learn when the British stopped wearing their bearskin caps in the field. Many other nations seems to have persevered with them throughout the Napoleonic period so I wonder why the British didn't. Perhaps it was a lack of bears?

Stephen

Ditto Sparker

Historygamer is correct, the "elite" status was more a honorofic than any real reality. The 23rd specifically became honoured as the only British unit in the AWI to remain undefeated, earning glory at such places as Guilford Courthouse and Yorktown. The three(?) fusilier battalions in general were honoured as being some of the oldest regiments in the Army, originally intended back in the 17th century to guard the precious big guns in battle with their fusils – the first flintlocks – which were safer than the matchlocks of the day and so could be used near all the gunpowder of the guns. But by the Napoleonic Wars, although prestigous, the Fusilier Battalions were effectively line units with some extra honorary concessions. :)

As I hinted, the Fusilier battalions appear to have kept their flank companies at least until 1802, and, I assume, continued to use them as such. However, it seems that they may have dropped the terms Grenadiers and lights – the men were all "Fusiliers", although presumably the roles of flank companies were retained.

Despite the subtle variations, when it came to it in practice the 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers :) don't appear to have fought or performed any differently to conventional line Battalions.

Except perhaps for being darned near invincible! ;)

Hey, cool note on the spelling!
-Kle.

As a matter if interest, certainly for the Royal Fusiliers today, it is not called a "bearskin" but a "sealskin", but is made from racoon fur!!!

I think the same might have been true even in the Napoleonic times. Although officially of Canadian bear fur, it is noteable that the official term was "Fur cap", not "bearskin". Although it was meant to come from Brown and black bears, the fur could potentially have come from any suitable beast.

To answer the question as to why it was quickly abandoned on campaign: Fur was expensive, and was shipped over from North America – a time consuming business with logistical problems. It is worth remembering that in the Napoleonic wars, uniforms and shoes deteriorated awfully quickly on campaign. Men could be reduced to walking barefoot, dressed in rags, in a matter of months. And they were allowed to stay that way, reduced to scavenging and stealing just to clothe and shoe themselves.

If that logistical problem, surely the direst of priorities, could not be met, I don't think there would have been much of a concern over replacing Fur caps! The Battalions knew this, so put them in storage almost as soon as they went on campaign, in order to preserve them for special occasions.

@gilesosborne

Does this mean that these days the Royal Fusiliers wear Davy Crockett hats?

blue berets with a beheaded chicken's neck!

Further, his painting of the Guards at Guilford also raises questions about his choice of headware since their mods were so well documented. Also, some of the units in the painting were not close to each other at the real battle.
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I noticed this too,and was very puzzled! The Guards were wearing round hats and had all their lace removed before they got off the boats in NY!
Very odd indeed given his penchant for exhaustive research!

Bob

I can't comment on the 23rd out of the AWI period. They performed well to extremely well in that period. But the most higly regarded overall British regiment was the 33rd for that period. That said, the 23rd made an excellent mate in the campaigns of 1780-81.

I can't explain the Troiani things either. The Marine flag at Bunker Hill is sheer guesswork, as no record exists of what their colours looked like at that time period. My own guess (and that is all it is) is that it followed closely to the Royal Warrants for the marching regiments. The Marines had three divisions, with colors of red, black and white for the three home ports (Portsmith, Chattham and Plymouth – don't recall what color was what off the top of my head, other than Chattham was black). I suspect the colours had the usual St. George Cross on a white field or a red cross on a black field. What the device was in the center is anyone's guess.

Don also painted the 23rd in bearskins in a earlier painting, which is questionable as well. He also has a 43rd sentry saluting Lord Cornwallis wearing paired buttons. The 43rd re-enactment unit is not aware of any documentation supporting that, and their commander is friends with Don. I'm not saying Don is wrong, just that perhaps some explanation of such things might help.

Like any research in the period, there is as much unknown as known. I guess that is what makes it fun.

Don also painted the 23rd in bearskins in a earlier painting, which is questionable as well. He also has a 43rd sentry saluting Lord Cornwallis wearing paired buttons. The 43rd re-enactment unit is not aware of any documentation supporting that, and their commander is friends with Don. I'm not saying Don is wrong, just that perhaps some explanation of such things might help.
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Also see his latest print on the 16th Lt. Dragoons wearing BLUE! And wearing a very Napoleonic type jacket..
The one print he did on the 23rd I THINK was portraying them in Boston in 75,at which time they DID have the bearskin as they weren't on active campaign.
Then again,the new 63rd Ft. grenadier company reenactment,are in cocked hats with white feathers!

Who knows..

Bob C.

Not to hijack the thread too far, but a watercolour (IIRC, part of the Williams panorama) shows the back of a sentry in a fur cap. Also, Dearborn's account of Bunker Hill has his unit being attacked by the 23rd, when in fact it was the Grenadier Battalion – so presumably he saw them either before or after the battle in their caps.

Bob,

The blue jacket of the 16th is from one of the Sandby watercolours of a couple of troopers in the encampments in Hyde Park following the Gordon Riots in 1780. Something of a leap in terms of provenance, but not beyond the bounds of possibility.

The blue jacket of the 16th is from one of the Sandby watercolours of a couple of troopers in the encampments in Hyde Park following the Gordon Riots in 1780. Something of a leap in terms of provenance, but not beyond the bounds of possibility.
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By which time they weren't in America also..
Were they identified as 16th troopers?

Bob

I believe they were so identified.

You are correct, of course, they left at the end of 1778, with the rank-and-file drafted to various units (not just the 17th LD, as is often stated). After arriving back in Grat Britain, they began recruiting and contributed some of the new men to the newly-formed 21st LD, which was raised to patrol the north-east coast during the Jones raids.

Perhaps the new uniform was created to clothe the new men as quickly as possible; perhaps it was an existing "stable dress" that had been tested in America (I think the 17th had white stable jackets, but they may have been converted waistcoats). We just don't know.

Didn't some of the light dragoon regiments of the late AWI era wear green coats? Re: Portrait of Burgoyne.

The 17th refused to give up their redcoats. They did sometimes wear white smocks during the summer, I think.

The British Legion and Queen's Rangers did indeed wear green.

Of the new LD regiments raised in Britain during the war, the 22nd (1780) and 23rd (1781) had green jackets; the others all had red coats. The latter was Burgoyne's new regiment, after he had been stripped of the colonelcy of the 16th post-Saratoga; this is the portrait "spontoon" refers to.