"The last cavalry charge?" Topic

The famous charge by the Poland Lancers on WW2 was real or a myth?.

Here you can read an article written by one of those brave riders.

PDF link

and in the other hand, who said that was not possible.

PDF link

What's your opinion about?

Amicalement
Armand

From what I've read they were trying to get past the enemy not charge them. This was not the last cavalry charge though, even if it was that. US troops charged on horseback in the most recent conflict in Afghanistan.

Lots of things that aren't possible seem to happen in war.

Interested in this US cavalry charge – details?

French Spahis cavalry charged at British troops in Syria or Lebanon in the brief conflict there in 1941!

IIRC there was also an Italian cavalry charge with sabres in eastern front in 1941.

the last charge of Italian "Savoia cavalleria" regiment took place in 1942 at Izbušenskij.

Tibetan Cavalry charged Chinese during the recent 'Anschluss'.

Pictors – how many US troops were in this charge? ?

Pat

Supposedly, Kenyan mounted police rode down a Mau-Mau camp at dawn, sometime during the Mau-Mau Insurgency. In addition, a small mounted cavalry charge was apparently put in by Philipine troops somewhere on Bataan just before the surrender.

Didn`t the Rhodesians have mounted scouts "Selous scouts"??

Not Philippine, US Regular Army… 26th Cavalry Regiment. The place was a village called Morong…

British sikh cavalry made a charge several weeks before, soviet cavalry was active until 1945…

It is not a myth… there 16 documented polish cavalry charges on the polish campaing, the majority successful. Point is… you cannot sto cavalry with bolt action weapons.

List of polish charges in the 1939 campaing:

Some Cavalry charges in Polish Campaign:

Sep 1st '39: Krojanty
18th Pomorski regiment stopped 2nd Motorized division advance with a charge. Polish commander: col. Kazimierz Mastalerz and about 20 men died. German losses are unknown. This episode is described in Guderian book (he had to intervene in motorised division to prevent it from retreating).

Sep 1st '39: Mokra
1st and 2nd squadron of 19th Wolynski regiment charged Grodzisko forest

Sep 11th '39 Osuchow
1st squadron of 20th cav regiment was encircled and escaped with a succesful charge

Sep 13th '39 Maliszew
1st squadron of 27th regiment charged. The charge was stopped by heavy machinegun fire. The attack was continued on foot and was a success.

Sep 19th '39 Wolka Weglowa
The most spectacular: 14th Jazlowiecki and a part of 9th Malopolski regiment charged. About 100 cavalrymen were killed but the charge opened the way for encircled "Poznan" army to Warsaw. This charge was descibed with the admire by Italian correspondent.

Sep 21st '39 Kamionka Strumilowa

Sep 23rd '39 Krasnobrod
1st squadron of 25th Wielkopolski regiment. Only 30 Polish cavalrymen survived but the city was taken and German 8th Infantry division headquarters imprisoned.

Sep 25th or 26th '39 Husynne near Hrubieszow
400 cavalrymen of 14th reserve cavalry regiment + Police cavalry squadron successfuly charged a Red Army unit

As Chauvel and Grant pointed out after Beersheba the reason cavalry charges were not successful in the western front was not firepower or trenches, but barbed wire and craters. IF the cavalry had a reasonable clear area to pick up speed and momentum it will be in contact much quicker than infantry, carrying momentum and less losses due to lesser exposure to enemy fire.

How many men and horses are needed for it to count as a "charge"?

I will say a platoon suffice if you are on the receiving end :)

I think there was a successful cavalry charge by Tibetans against the Chinese in the 1950's

Really sector51, was there?

Pat

The myth is that Polish cavalry charged German panzers with their lances or sabers out of sheer desperation; on the evidence, they *didn't* do any such thing. Steve Zaloga presented a compelling case against this tale of suicidal tomfoolery in his book The Polish Campaign 1939 by comparing actual Polish and German combat records, etc., and concluded that a Polish cavalry regiment had caught a German infantry formation in marching order, saber charged them from a position of surprise, was busy scattering them when the desperate German soldats were rescued by the timely intervention of German recce AFVs who forced the Polish troopers to beat a hasty retreat.

When Italian news reporters showed up and viewed the dead cavalry horses, Polish troopers, etc., they asked some of the German soldats what happened. They were informed that the Poles had "charged our tanks," and the Italians put the story out on the news wire!

The rest is (bogus) history repeated again and again by one too many historians who should have known better.

Leland R. Erickson
Grayhawk Studios
grayhawkstudios.com

The rest is (bogus) history repeated again and again by one too many historians who should have known better.
>>
Exactly! And to wrongly promote Polish "stupidity"!

The Poles inflicted a lot more damage on the Germans than the Germans admitted. If the Poles had time to mobilize their Army properly,there MAY have been a different result.OR,it may have dragged on a lot longer.

Bob

I read of a Soviet cavalry charge in 1944 by a brigade (or was it a division?) of Guards cavalry. It was during Operation Bagration. The cavalry were deep in the German rear and surprised a regiment detraining. The Germans thought they were allied Ukranians. This was written in a West Point journal by a Soviet officer back in the 60's.

A saber charge was followed by dismounted action to winkle out the remains who holed up in the station house or boxcars. The regiment was wiped out.

I also have heard of a successful cavalry charge during the Soccer War, appropriate subject considering the World Cup under way.

I think the definition of a charge has to be with saber in hand, intending to have at the enemy with said saber or lance. Under which criteria, I don't think the SF units in Afghanistan vs. the Taliban count.

link

Why does the definition have to include saber in hand? That seems pretty artificial. Do charges by American Civil War infantry not count as charges because they didn't have sabers or lances?

Or even civil war cavalry when some were using shotguns, were those guys not actually charging.

Or English Civil War cavalry that charged in with pistols blazing and then drew their swords?

The actual definition is: :"to make a rush at or sudden attack upon, as in battle; "

There is nothing in there about swords, lances, machine guns or anything else being required. So if someone makes a sudden attack on someone on horseback, whether they are holding a plasma cannon or a tooth pick it is a cavalry charge.

Interested in this US cavalry charge – details?

Tora Bora, 2001. US special forces working with the Northern Alliance were often on horseback.

The work of Teams Alpha and Bravo quickly eroded the initial Taliban defensive positions. Many Taliban vehicles were destroyed, and hundreds of troops were killed. The survivors fled for their lives north to Mazar-e Sharif. In pursuit, Dostum's forces began to conduct old-fashioned cavalry charges into the northern Darya Suf and Balkh Valleys. During these attacks SF team members were in the forefront of the action, often on horseback, even though only one member of the team had ever ridden extensively before.

link

Why does the definition have to include saber in hand?

No kidding. If you're on a horse, you're cavalry. If you are galloping at an enemy with intent to kill them, you're charging.

Well units like the Grey's Scouts('75-'80) link in the Rhodesian War, and the Aussie Lt. Horse link in the 2d Boar War and WWI Palestine … were not really Cavarly, but horse mounted infantry. Using the horses for transport, rather than the traditional "Cav Charge". However, in combat things don't always work the way they are supposed to … The Rough Riders in the Spanish-American War 1898, link left most of their horses in the States. And they fought dismounted, just like infantry. And of course at Gettysburg, Buford's 1st Cav did a classic screening mission dismounted against Heath's Div. at the start of the battle … And also during the ACW, many of the South's Cav units, regular and irregular, charged into battle with pistols …

I love it when those who ain't cav debate what cav is and what it ain't.

"No kidding. If you're on a horse, you're cavalry. If you are galloping at an enemy with intent to kill them, you're charging."

<ahem> It is a fine old American tradition to charge at the enemy on horseback and *shoot* his ass the instant said enemy is in line-of-sight.

Sabers and lances are for those who don't know how to shoot straight IMHO…

Leland R. Erickson
Grayhawk Studios
grayhawkstudios.com

As Chauvel and Grant pointed out after Beersheba the reason cavalry charges were not successful in the western front was not firepower or trenches, but barbed wire and craters. IF the cavalry had a reasonable clear area to pick up speed and momentum it will be in contact much quicker than infantry, carrying momentum and less losses due to lesser exposure to enemy fire.

This was the experience of the Russian Civil War and Soviet-Polish war. Machine-guns alone are not enough to stop cavalry. Barbed wire will do it every time.

Interestingly, the best terrain in that period for cavalry was not flat, but rolling. In flat terrain the low profile of infantry and ability to return fire was important. In rolling country the ability of the cavalry to cover the ground quickly and with surprise was a huge advantage (so long as there are no hedges, fences etc to slow them).

In 1920 both the Poles and the Soviets concentrated their cavalry in southern Poland and the Ukraine, where it is rolling. There was far less in northern Poland and Belarus, where it is much flatter.

So I take it … you were Cav aecurtis ?

"Do charges by American Civil War infantry not count as charges because they didn't have sabers or lances?"

Aha, well now you've just opened the field to all vigorous advances, which means there isn't a "last one" because there will be one as long as there is war. Not all advances on horseback are charges.

Tuscaloosa
(with service in 4-7 Cav, 5-17 Cav: And note today's date of 25 June, a very significant date in cav history!)

Yep … the 7th Cav gets immortalized at the Little Bighorn … It's linage still fights on ! 4-7 Cav was with the 2ID when I was there in the ROK ! Even though I'm a former Grunt … I really like the CAV song "Garry Owen" !!

"Machine-guns alone are not enough to stop cavalry. Barbed wire will do it every time."

True enough, but by 1939 the prevalence of efficient light machine guns or automatic rifles at the squad level combined with the overall increase in firepower of the infantry versus WW1 in most cases IMHO significantly made up for the lack of barbed wire being the major factor mitigating against cavalry charges in 1939 versus the battlefield conditions of 1920.

In 1920 in the RCW or Polish War of Independence a cavalry formation was far less likely AFAIK to encounter infantry consistently armed at the squad level with light automatic weapons, rifle grenades, SMGs, and the like, and was therefore far more likely to be able to close to saber or lance range accordingly…

Leland R. Erickson
Grayhawk Studios
grayhawkstudios.com

During these attacks SF team members were in the forefront of the action, often on horseback

As admirable as this is, I can't imagine untrained horse riders would line up and charge on a command in this day and age and those SF fellows are all otherwise superbly trained and also very intelligent; I would think they'd have some knowledge of military history. In pursuit maybe, but charging against a position?

I stand to be corrected, but it just boggles my mind. My US Marine step son fought in and was wounded in Tora Bora and what he described and what I remember from on TV doesn't sound/look like it lends itself very well to cavalry charges.

Again I could be wrong and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to the US SF or you, Hexxenhammer, but it doesn't sound right to me.
--
Tim

This gets right back to the definition of a charge.

According to the watered-down definition of a general advance in the enemy's direction on horseback, SF could kinda sorta be considered to have charged. But with one hand on the reins and the other on the radio mike, calling in fires.

Not a charge by my definition.

Well if we are going to define what a cavalry charge is--How about galloping in line knee to knee in at least squadron strength??? IE a "Classic" cavalry charge…..

If so then probably the Soviets during WW2--Who kept large cavalry formations up to the 50's…

With no enemy around? And you mean they have to be galloping knee to knee? Photographs of WW2 Soviet cavalry charges don't show them in such dense Napoleonic formations. So they wouldn't count.

I was just suggesting some sort of benchmark!!! Otherwise all a cavalry charge could be is a few bloke on horseback chasing down infantry…. In the British Army the last full Regimental cavalry charge was at Omdurman….

Someone says 'cavalry charge', the mind's eye picture that forms (for me anyway) is of horses galloping to contact, their riders leaning forward in the saddle with sabres drawn and lances levelled, ready to skewer some poor soul on the other side.

Exactly.

archstanton

I have also heard Omdurman described as the last cavalry charge of the British cavalry, but think one could make a case for the charge at Elandslaagte the following year? And there must have been examples in WW1?
I guess it all comes down to definitions, though I wonder if the presence of a certain Sir Winston Churchill at Omdurman made it more famous than Elandslaagte – just a thought.

Great War isn't my area really, but wasn't there an early encounter in August 1914 between British and German cavalry patrols which resulted in the former charging the latter down the main street of a Belgian village? And a vague memory of a Battalion being caught disembarking at a railhead and charged by cavalry, Western Front I think, but not a clue beyond that. Lots of debris lodged in the memory banks without the appropriate supporting references, sorry…

Yes there were plenty of cavalry charges after Omdurman but this was specifically a full regimental charge…The others probably just had a few squadrons…..

I think the last massed cavalry battles where rows of horsemen charged each other was either Austro-Hungarians V's Russians on the Eastern Front or during the Polish-Soviet War of 1920….