"Apolcalypse Now" Topic

With the advent of Charlie Don't Surf, I was wondering if anyone had worked out a map and Orbat for the helicopter assault in the film?

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Alan

I also want to do Nam.I have 500 painted mins and 12 Corgi 28mm heles.Plus 12 tripod telescoping with mags. Please let me know how you fair.

Thanks for your time
John Parris

I'd rent the movie and count the choppers.

or just watch it on Youtube :)

YouTube link

full screen, with the sound turned right up!

But how many of them are gunships and how many are transports?

Historically, it'd be about a 50/50 mix of transports and gunships. Not sure if they actually held to that mix for the movie.

Actually, checking the footage some of helicopters shown look like scout helos.

But its a movie! Never happened. AFAIK,nothing like it ever did.
Don't get me wrong,as a former member of an air assault unit,there is nothing more exciting than that sequence. But in real life,playing that music would've gotten the VC/NVA good and ready for them with all the AA they had,and it would've been a bloody mess.

Bob C.

usually it was a 2 gunship flight covering a full lift (anything from 4 to 12 slick, usually the average was 8, two platoon worth of infantry in a single lift). Of course if the LZ was deemed potentially hot more gunship flight would have provided sweep, additional escorts and the like.

Antoher point is that the movie is a weird mess of an air assault (troop insertion) with helicopter strike. The point was that once the troops were on the gorund the slicks were moving out, also the loach of the scout teams were supposed to scout before the insertion…

ehy it is nice, it is "fun" to watch and dramatic… and it is Coppola…

by the way several years ago at Action 2004 (or it was 2003) I saw a demo table with the scenario made straight from the movie… even the 2cv with AA mount…

During the Viet Nam period was the the purpose of the Loach? How did they communicate their targets? Today it is all digital but back then was it just radio chatter? "infantry and triple 'A' left of the big hut."

Actually was able to answer my own question with Google a bit. They used smoke munitions. They also drew fire thus proving the adage that tracers work in both directions!

Here is what I found:

The OH-6A Cayuse was quite effective when teamed with the AH-1G Cobra attack helicopter as part of what were known as Pink Teams. The OH-6A Loach (for "LOH") would find targets by flying low, "trolling for fire", then marking the target with colored smoke to lead in a Cobra, or Snake, to attack. The Cayuse could absorb an extensive amount of small arms fire and still bring the crew home safely. The OH-6A could be armed with the M27 armament subsystem, the port (left) side mounting M134 six-barrel 7.62mm minigun or a 40mm grenade launcher on the XM8 armament subsystem. In addition, an M60D 7.62mm machine gun could be mounted in the front port (left) or rear starboard (right) door openings. The OH-6A replaced the Korean era OH-13 Sioux and OH-23 Raven light observation helicopters. The Hughes (model 500M) international military version was sold in ten countries and built under license in Italy and Japan. The Cayuse had a single articulated four-bladed main rotor, a metal two-bladed tail rotor, and a V-shaped tail. The OH-6A was powered by a single Allison T63-A-5A 285 shp turboshaft engine, and had a cruising speed of 144 mph (125 knots). For additional information on the OH-6A Cayuse, go to the U.S. Army Helicopter Info page.
OH-6A Loach with XM8 40mm grenade launcher.
OH-6A with M60D 7.62mm door gun (Copyright Fred Lohr at sirinet.net/~flohr/).

"by the way several years ago at Action 2004 (or it was 2003) I saw a demo table with the scenario made straight from the movie… even the 2cv with AA mount…"

That was the game I ran, it was participation not demo but we didn't have a 2cv. Pics are here:

picture

picture

picture

picture

I used the colonial mission instead of just the village, it gave more of a visual impact than just a few hooches.

Hahah that looks really cool sterling good effort… love it.

Get ya a case of beer for that one!

As Col. Kilgore would have said: Outstanding!

I don't suppose anyonme would have a map of the layout and Orbats?

Many thanks,

Alan

As long as we are talking about the Loach. I was at the Austin TX Military Forces museum a few years ago and a mother was showing her daughter around. While I was in the Vietnam section I overheard her say:

"That's a recon helicopter". "When you see one on the ground burning, that's where you attack".

Somehow the task of scout helicopter pilot does not sound too tempting: "fly low and try to get people to shoot at your direction".

Sterling,

sorry for the confusion. For us italian demo is an open participation… we do not see the point to demoing something without having the public in… ok I have seen at an italian show a friend dmoing warmachine… he was standing behind a desk, people seated in row of chairs and he was literally teaching the rules witohut having ever used a single mini…

My biggest regret in that action wasnot having taken part in your game. and do not worry about the mission. In the movie there is something like a colonial mansion or something similar with even a paved courtyard.

The 1/9 Air Cav had 3 companies I believe. Each Company would have been made up of the following:

Blue Platoon (Infantry)

4-8 Slicks
1 Platoon of Infantry

White Platoon (Scouts)

10 OH-6 LoHs

Red Platoon (Weapons Platoon/Gunships)

10 UH-1 Gunships

The "Pink" Teams were made up by coupling LoHs and Gunships (Red & White = Pink).

I never actually counted what was in the movie, but after reading copious amounts on the 1/9 including Brennan's three books and actual TO&Es, this is fairly accurate.

Ditto Brennan's books, mad as a hatter the lot of them, and extremely brave to boot.

I have two of the three books but only one in Hardback and recommend them especially recounts of the larger actions which give the impression that something like Apocalypse Now actually happened (the hospital fight and the one on the beach spring to mind). History is stranger than fiction at times.

Si Tyler

I have try with this game :

link

As a retired Scout Pilot, I can relate.

As long as we are talking about the Loach. I was at the Austin TX Military Forces museum a few years ago and a mother was showing her daughter around. While I was in the Vietnam section I overheard her say:

"That's a recon helicopter". "When you see one on the ground burning, that's where you attack".

The standard joke was "The target is marked by the burning scout!"

Somehow the task of scout helicopter pilot does not sound too tempting: "fly low and try to get people to shoot at your direction".

True but there is more to it than that. In an environment where the primary threat is small ams fire from fairly unsophisticated light infantry the tatic was viable and even survivable for the most part. Helos flying low and moving at all are very difficult to hit with small arms fire, especially in jungle terrain. Plus the fact that there is a gunship orbiting overhead just waiting to bring a world of hurt on anybody bold or undisciplined enough to fire at the scout made the pink team concept effective.

Marking targets was done in a variety of ways, from pure voice command, ie 200 meters north of the village, to dropping smoke grenades to firing WP or smoke rockets if so equipped. Most loaches carried either rockets and/or miniguns, as grenade launchers were not effective for the scouts. Part of the reason Army Aviation took the miniguns and rockets away from the scouts was that the aggressive nature of scout pilots did tend to get them into firefights which resulted in increased casualties. The VC also got pretty good at creating ADA ambushes for US Helos as the war progressed. The mission of the scouts was to gain and maintain contact, report, but not become decisively engaged.

Interestingly enough, once the OH58Ds became widely available following Gulf War 1, the scouts got their miniguns, rockets and even anti-tank missiles. Part of the reason is that the higher threat environment required the scouts to be able to fight more effectively to accomplish their primary mission. That and the fleeting nature of targets required the element that discovered the target to have the capability to service it.