"Your Interest in Gaming WWII Frogmen Operations?" Topic

The recent issue of the Journal of the Society of Twentieth Century Wargamers including a capsule article about late-war German frogmen operations in rivers and canals.

In general, on a scale from 0 to 10 (got to game it now!), what is your interest level in wargaming WWII skirmish actions involving frogmen?

To be honest "0", but I don`t play WW2 games that often.

None

Funnily enough just bought some frogmen…

0

0

Love to! And add some Deep Ones, too -- Frog Men, Deep Ones, what's not to like about that scenario??

None.

Negative zero

I'd rank it right up there with gaming weird world war and zombies.

Zero or less…

I think it would make for a great game. I don't have anything to do it with, and probably never will. I would say for me to create a game, interest is 0, to play in one that someone else sets up, it would be a 10, sounds fun.

In a similar vein, I have been working on doing a frogman assault in modern 20mm on a shipping vessel taken over by pirates…

CDL tanks were used in March 1945 for the crossing at Rees to, in part, guard against German midget submarines being used in an attempt to destroy the crossing points. Nice line from 79th Armd Div about fifty objects floating downstream being engaged, of which twenty three exploded!

Don't think any of said unfortunate objects were minisubs with frogmen, but who knows…

maybe if there were some sharks…..with frickin lasers mounted on their heads…. involved

13.

I seem to recall that frogmen were sent against the Remagen bridge, or there were plans to.

Of course minisubs vs. other enemy vessels could be quite fun too, e.g. the British vs. the Tirpitz, late-war German minisubs vs. the D-Day invasion or used in the Mediterranean, Italian frogman ops (they were particularly successful on a number of occasions, in addition to the British), and Japanese ops too.

Ah, I remember many years ago getting that baking soda powered frogman we all lusted for in a cereal box and heading for the bathtub for some sea hunting. Honestly, haven't thought much about frogmen since…

I remember the baking soda powered frogman--and submarine!

Back when I was a youngster, and had built the Monogram 1:35 LCP and frogmen, and was trying to figure out how to use it in a game with the Weasel, Deuce and a Half, and a (Bandai) Sturmhaubitze, all on my HO model railroad layout: 10.

Now: not so much. 2.

Allen

I gamed British Commandos against German coastal sites along time ago. I'm not sure anyone in my group would be enthusiastic about "frogmen" in a scenario.

Depends on the scenario, so I'll say between 5 and 8.
Sounds like a good time to me.

Bonus, there wouldn't be any stupid lace or absurd hats to paint. I'm in.

Did they make submersible King Tigers?

It has possibilities. There were lots of ops where commando types in wetsuits were used either for beach recon, demolitions work or outright attacks or raids. IIRC the US Navy UDT teams were developed to gather beach data and do demolitions work both in the European and Pacific theaters.

As to your original question I'd rank it about a 6 on my "cool" meter. Like the idea and if I could cobble together some cheap lead or plastic divers and some simple rules I'd love to give it a go. Right now there are other projects on my plate.

These frogmen – 8

link

These frogmen – 0

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frogman

I mostly do WWII in 6mm, and am starting to do skirmish gaming – but want to stick to "dry land" stuff

Only Zombie Nazi frogmen interest me, ordinary frogmen are just not ridiculously stupid enough

…does not exist.

<0

Now if we are talking the well endowed FrogWOMEN then you got something there.

The less you know, the less you care.

Having gotten my C-Card eons ago ("air" was brand new then)I think this 3-Dimensional sort of game, with correct concerns about pressure effects, hazards, and solutions, could be a blast. It doesn't hurt that there are some good histories of WW II operations that would make for amazing games, and even the early works of Cousteau lend inspiration for "peace time" scenarios.

If there were proper figures available in 25/28mm (other scales would be too "fiddly small"), I'd finish my rules for such games in a number of genre's (Pulp, Historical WW II, Treasure Diving scenarios, etc).

In those odd occasions when related ideas come up, I have expressed the hope that some reliable company would produce some free divers (Polynesian, "Hollywood" Heroes/Heroines) for similar games. Pearl or treasure dives with "Bo-Ga-Ten"
encounters using readily available giant squid, octopus, shark, the odd lawyer, etc, make great games!

"Hard Hat" Diver figures are already available from a number of good sources, and make, in some ways, for a simpler game, but still requiring some thought beyond just moving one around.

Or maybe you've just got to be a swimmer/diver to appreciate the possibilities.

So, yeah, I'll give the lone "10," Bill!

TVAG

"Did they make submersible King Tigers?"

Absolutely…oh, hang on, did you mean ones that could surface again afterwards? No, probably not then, but they could definitely sink without any floaty issues at all to overcome, like those DD things ;>

I can't say I'd rate it too high, but the Italians, especially, did some interesting things with divers. An Invasion Malta with Italian frogmen in Valetta Harbor might make a very entertaining game. I can also see some interest in a Thunderball-type skirmish game -- indeed I feel as if I've seen one at Historicon a couple of years ago? The terrain would make or break that.

If anyone makes a Don Knotts figure as Mr. Limpet, I'm there. Otherwise, not so much.

Another 10.

Really, I would have to see the scenario to give it any sort of a rating. This is so far from my realm of interest or experience that it is just a black box until I see it.

Sorry.

Absolutely…oh, hang on, did you mean ones that could surface again afterwards? No, probably not then, but they could definitely sink without any floaty issues at all to overcome, like those DD things ;>

Not such a daft question as it seems. The standard river crossing procedure for the Maus was to drive across the river bed power for the electric drive supplied via cable from another Maus on the bank. So although the King Tiger wasn't the Maus was a submersible tank.

Maybe in a attack scenario on the Ludendorff bridge at Remagen. Robert

used to play with plastic frogmen in the bath. They had a little tablet (sodium bicarbonate) that made them fizzed forward!

I think this could be a great idea, although I'd go for the Med rather than bog snorkelling up the Rhine.

I'd scale it down to 10mm or 6mm and have frogmen and human torpedoes on multiple bases.

I'll give anything a go. 1.

My Action Man used to have a nice frogman outfit when I was a kid.

Unfortunately, I know just enough dive physics to *not* want to game it, even though the Italians probably had the most success of all nations frogmen programs (and I have this odd soft spot for the Italians in WW2)

Big zilcho here, buddy. Never even contemplated it.

I'll give it a 10, and hope it includes Maiale, mini-subs and "sleeping beauties" too.

Decima MAS in Alexandria harbour, Cameron, Place and Magennis winning their VCs on X-Craft, COPPs doing beach recce under the noses of the Germans on the D-Day landing beaches, SS nutcakes in Bibers and Negers mucking about near the Trout Line, "Creeping Dragons" poking pole-charges at the onrushing USMC landing craft, how can anyone not thrill to these?

The problem is that a decent set of rules for this sort of special forces operation needs to be able to handle stealth and surprise much better than any wargame yet in existence. So I expect it will remain in the "too difficult" tray indefinitely.

All the best,

John.

Ten, for sure. I have a few metal and plastic divers, but no where near enough. In fact, just yesterday I was primer painting some and two minisubs for WWII Germans!

All in 1/72 scale of course. I have the old Scenic Effects Bridge at Remangan just for that very reason. Frogmen attack.

I have tried to interest HaT and others in doing a set of hard hat divers too, but so far, no takers.

Mike "Bunkermeister" Creek
bunkermeister.blogspot.com

Zero interest in gaming it, but one account of such operations tickled me:

Lt Hans Hoeller commanded tha Antitank Platoon of 8th Company, Panzer-Grenadier-Regiment 192 (21. Panzer-Division). His men had proved to be one of the more capable forces fighting against the British airborne landings at Pegasus Bridge. However, after fruitless fighting against the Airborne Tommies, Hoeller's men were forced to retire back up the Orne Canal to Herouville, where they took up positions defending the next bridge upstream from Pegasus Bridge, between Herouville and the Colombelles Steelworks.

After a few days, Hoeller and his men were interested to see a unit of frogmen arrive. The frogmen declared that they were going to swim down the canal and blow up Pegasus Bridge or one of the adjacent Bailey bridges that the British had built. Hoeller and his men were impressed and they watched the brave frogmen swim off to glory.

As the time of detonation approached, Hoeller and his men waited for the Big Bang from Pegasus Bridge…

Suddenly there was a collossal explosion! Planks and girders began raining down among Hoeller's men…

The German frogmen had blown up their own bridge…

:o)

If someone else buys the figures, rules, etc, and runs the game, I'd participate, otherwise: none.

But if you're going to do frogmen, why not Americans or Italians?

Ditto donlowry.
--
Tim

100! My grandfather was on UDT 14 in the Pacific. I faintly remember a photo of him on the fantail of his ship with nothing but speedos and a Tommy Gun. That image would make a great mini.

I'd play it if someone had set it up and painted everything etc.

None.

I'm with John, I'd rank my interest at 10. But I also agree with his other point:

The problem is that a decent set of rules for this sort of special forces operation needs to be able to handle stealth and surprise much better than any wargame yet in existence. So I expect it will remain in the "too difficult" tray indefinitely.

christot 10 Jun 2010 9:34 a.m. PST wrote:
Only Zombie Nazi frogmen interest me, ordinary frogmen are just not ridiculously stupid enough

Nazi Woman Frogpersons Heck ya!

on a more serious note if we can have a Moby Dick Whale hunt gaming and sub warfare I think a UDT/Frogman game would be very interesting. Maybe do it 3D? FWIW I use to run "underwater knife fighting" contests when I was an instructor in the Army for some smartass students during waterborne operations training.
VR
James Mattes

I would play it… heck I'll play anything.

No interest in building or collecting it.

10

Just to bring up an old post and current interest. I have been developing German K-Verband units for quite some time. There are no 25-28mm WWII era combat swimmers and we could use some.