"IF Neanderthals HAD Survived As The Sole Species?" Topic

IF, instead of being replaced by Sapiens 30,000 years ago, the Neanderthals had had the entire planet to develop own their own, without competition . . .

1) What level of technology do you think they would have attained by now?

2) What wargaming miniatures (28mm or 15mm) would best represent 21st century Neanderthals on such an alternate Earth?

Thanks.

Dan

Would they have reached anything like this by now?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kromagg

Or do you think that is way too advanced, even though according to experts their brains were larger than ours?

Dan

Would they respond to their own threads?

Would they create 460 TMP threads that mention chupacabras?

Thanks, Allen.

Always knew I could count on your help in the past. These days . . . I just don't know.

Dan
PS. Allen, if I have offended you somehow, or you have some other problem with me, can we take this off-line, via PM or email? You know how to reach me.

link
They'd look like this.

What miniatures would you use to game the inevitable Neanderthal-Sasquatch Wars?

There is a school that believes that Neanderthals actually interbred with Sapiens and many people carry 1-5% of the Neanderthal genome. Pure Neanderthal may look like the recreation in this article:

link

Probably someone you have seen once or twice at the football game or on the subway.

There has even been some research, although not widely accepted that the genetic makeup of autism patients maybe related to this genome.

rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

Is that by comparing markets or meerkats?

The idea that there brains were bigger is based on inacurate repoting, their average was slightly smaller but the deviation was widerso the extreemes were further out (last time I looked at the data any how).

Robert

They could save up to 15% by switching to GEICO.

And the Neanderthal world TV ads would be depicting the "So easy a Homo Sapiens can do it" joke…. ;)

LOL. So, you think they would have TV ads by now?

Dan

IF, instead of being replaced by Sapiens 30,000 years ago, the Neanderthals had had the entire planet to develop own their own, without competition . . .

Lady GaGa would be a lot uglier.

"Lady GaGa would be a lot uglier"

Hard to believe!

Dan
link

Waco Joe, thanks for that link, I have an AS son who will be fascinated.

Robert

The vast majority of comedy entertainment would consist of lowbrow humor.

Hang on…

would best represent 21st century Neanderthals on such an alternate Earth?

Those would be, um, ah, Klingons.

Tough questions.

As a starting point, the link that Waco Joe provided is strong evidence that Neanderthals were not purely exterminated, and that there must have been at least some assimilation. This is significant, and may finally resolve the long-running conquest vs assimilation debate about how the Neanderthals died out. But we can't rule out the possibility that Neanderthals were conquered by homo sapiens, but the early humans didn't exterminate them, instead keeping some Neanderthals, probably females, as mates and/or slaves. This sort of behavior is quite prevalent in recorded history, so it's not out of the question that it happened in prehistory as well.

As for what level of technology Neanderthals might have achieved in time:
I'm not an expert, but my impression is that what we know about Neanderthal technology is pretty sketchy. I've read that they probably used stabbing spears to hunt, and may have lacked missile weapons. As such, they are commonly supposed to have been less advanced than contemporary homo sapiens. Those who posit that early humans exterminated Neanderthals suggest that this was a contributing factor (along with homo sapiens' superior numbers, and possibly better social organization).

But, just because Neanderthals were less advanced when they were either wiped out or assimilated does NOT mean they could not have attained more advanced technology if they had survived. They may have just been a few generations behind their homo sapien cousins. Human history is rife with examples of civilizations making major technological advances over their rivals, not because one group or another is incapable of such technology, but just because chance or necessity or greater wealth drove one group to develop the better technology first. Neanderthals, like Native Americans, Aborigines, Africans, and even the Chinese and Japanese more recently, may have simply been wrong-footed by history. Because they were probably much less numerous than the homo sapien invaders, this was a fatal bit of bad luck, rather than a mere set-back as it was for the aforementioned homo sapien groups.

So, I think there is no reason why (on an alternative Neanderthal world), Neanderthals might not have comparable technology to that of modern humans. There is a colorable argument that they might favor melee weapons more than we do, even at advanced levels of technology. The most likely reason Neanderthals lacked missile weapons in reality is that they hadn't developed them (and if they had, would have been just as adept with them as we are), but it is also possible that their brains, visual perception, or fine motor skills were ill-suited for missile weapons. If that was the case, their lack of missile weapons may have reflected an inability to use them as well, not a lack of technology. By comparison, homo sapiens seem to have a pretty natural affinity for, and ability to use, missile weapons, be it a rock or a gun.

As for miniatures, I think various orks/orcs or some armed primates might be good starting points. Neanderthals were not bigger than homo sapiens though, they were shorther, but more stout. Particularly at 15mm scale, hi-tech Neanderthals would be indistinguishable from homo sapiens.

Wayne rooney

Neanderthals were not bigger than homo sapiens though, they were shorther, but more stout.

So certain 15mm ranges would be well suited to high-tech neanderthals, then. (No names, no pack drill…)

There has even been some research, although not widely accepted that the genetic makeup of autism patients maybe related to this genome.

Awesome link. Ta for that.

lots of chocolate and windmills

Oh not Netherlands, Neanderthals!

Still might be chocolate though.

There is evidence that Neanderthals were more culturally advanced than Homo Sapiens at that time. For instance Neaderthals had burial rites and Homo Sapiens did not. These burial rites included colouring the body with red ochre, placing it in a fetal position, and leaving burial gifts such as food, etc. Meanwhile, Homo Sapiens were using the skulls of the dead for cups…

There is some speculation among archaeological circles that the structural developement on Neanderthals resulted in a more limited verbal capacity to communicate due to neck structure. This would have made it more diificult for Neanderthal to coordinate in complex, large hunts or difficult hunts when food sources are scarce. This would have given Homo Sapiens an advantage over Neanderthal at times when food was indeed scarce and may explain the demise of Neanderthal and the rise of Homo Sapiens.

Ivan DBA: "the early humans didn't exterminate them, instead keeping some Neanderthals, probably females, as mates and/or slaves"

Just from modern depictions of what Neanderthal women may have looked like, I have a feeling that in most cases it must have been Neanderthal males that were after the Sapien women. :)

Even more so if you realize that you are becoming extinct and your choices for mates are more and more limited each year.

I seriously think that, just as Europeans and New World peoples exchanged diseases during the colonial period, something like that must have happened when Sapiens entered Neanderthal territory. Except that, in this case, the hardest hit were the Neanderthal instead of the American natives. Sapien diseases may have spread way ahead of Sapien expansion, just as smallpox outdistanced the rate at which Conquistadores and others were spreading.

Just a thought.

Dan
PS. So, in a world without Sapien diseases, the Neanderthals would continue to thrive and evolve. The question still is . . . how far along would they have developed by this time (21st century)?

The pics I've seen of neanderthals based on the latest evidence (including genetic research) suggests that they wouldn't look too different from us. So far they've found genes for pale skin and red hair.

What Neanderthals have that we don't is raw strength and endurance. They could shrug off injuries that would incapacitate a human. The downside was that it's believed that they required as much as 5000 calories on average a day (as opposed to 2000 for us). Which might be a clue as to how we supplanted them: basic economics.

<quote>There is evidence that Neanderthals were more culturally advanced than Homo Sapiens at that time. For instance Neaderthals had burial rites and Homo Sapiens did not. These burial rites included colouring the body with red ochre, placing it in a fetal position, and leaving burial gifts such as food, etc. Meanwhile, Homo Sapiens were using the skulls of the dead for cups</quote>

All that tells us is that the Neanderthal fashion for disposing of the dead involved digging a hole. There are a wide variety of rites and rituals about disposing of beloved auntie Mabel's corpse that equally 'culturally advanced' but don't leave evidence for archaeologists to find: scaffold 'burials', cremation, eating the dead to absorb their spirit back into the tribe, leaving them where the great wolf spirit will nibble on them, etc.

For instance, the Grimaldi cave burials in Italy are all of male Homo sapiens. That's more likely to be because they disposed of women's bodies in another (religiously or socially) more 'female' place or by a different method, than because they left them lying about where they fell.

CC – Robert Sawyer has written a trilogy of books about an alternative Earth where neanderthals survived and we didn't. I've read the first one (a neanderthal scientist accidentally ends up in our world) and it is a good read. link

Sort of a "Planet of the One Step Up from the Apes"

Oh yes, and in ground afflicted by permafrost, digging holes is not possible at certain times of year, and a mushy, horrible business at others. So for vast areas of Ice Age Europe, should Aunt Mabel pop her clogs in winter the choices were:

1) Bury Aunt Mabel in the cave you are living in, where the ground is a bit softer. (The unhygienic neanderthal option).

2) Cover her in dried animal dung and cremate her.

3) Scaffold burial or some other form of exposure burial.

4) Hide her in a snowdrift and wait until the spring thaw, then bury her.

Didn't Robert Sawyer write a series of sci-fi novels on this very topic?

link

As I recall, his premise was the Neanderthal society would also evolve into a technologically advanced society

Hmm. I guess I'll have to tell my Anthropology professor he's wrong and return the BS I have in Anthropology. It'll be a busy day. He won't be happy.

LOL. Well, the Earth was flat once. :)

Dan

and spontaneous generation was all the fashion for a long time too.

Neanderthal would still have been at the top of the food chain and together with free hands to make tools, a language and a brain with capacity to learn and make tools to shape their lives and envronment, then all things being equal, there is no reason to doubt that they would have developed both cultures and technologies.

It would be a question of degree and pehaps they would be 1000 years behind us in technology terms.

This means that unlike us today, they would not dominate all life on earth, destroying all habitats and being a major contribution to mass extinction of species on a global scale or burning our most precious resource (oil) off at the most unsustainable rate, or setting us on a course for an unsustainable 9 Billion population (by mid century)or weaponising every single technology leap we make (the wheel, metal, chemical, nuclear, flight) etc……. Indeed in terms of what you might describe as the most successful species, looks like mother nature backed the wrong horse and perhaps Neanderthal may have been the better choice.

On the flip side, we do have Squad Leader, Pendraken 10mm and Perry plastics, so it hasn't all been bad news :-)

you mean we're not SUPPOSED to still be using the skulls of our enemies as drinking cups?!?

Damnit, I didn't get the memo! (clunk sound in the waste bin)

My personal feeling is thye would probably be at an American Indian level of technology circa 1800.

So, stone age with a relatively sophisticated tribal culture.

NormSmith: "It would be a question of degree and pehaps they would be 1000 years behind us in technology terms."

So, medieval period, short, stocky miniatures should work then?

Dan

Oh, and keeping with the theme:

6) More Neanderthal Boobies

What IF….ala 'chariot of the gods'…'modern' homo sapiens were 'transplants' vs 'genetic mutation' from Cro Magnon's or whatever…and the 'TRANSPLANTER' also took a group of Cro-magnons to other world(s) where life would have been 'tougher' than Homo sapiens could have adapted to???

In short…if you're 'seeding planets' with (semi?) intelligent life…or life-forms capable of evolving…why put just one or have only one world 'seeded'….

This sorta 'theory' could explain the 'spontaneous' generation of HS vs 'evolutionary' JUMP from CM to HS??? or you could just stick with 'divine intervention'…

But suppose…somewhere, out there…CM 'won' out over HS on some other 'seeded' world…????

Klingons? why not…

but with all the 'alien abductions going on (supposedly) even now…maybe the 'seeding' projects (the cream of the crop(s)…is STILL going on…and other worlds are being seeded with descendents of HS, CM and Neaderthals etc….

lots of 'fodder' for gaming at least???

Sgt DWW-btod…

I love the idea of them being Klingon-like!

But as Medieval Klingons then?

Are there any online Star Trek pictures out there of what Klingons looked like during their pre-firearm days? Didn't they have some mythical hero from the past on a couple of TNG episodes?

Thanks.

Dan

Would they respond to their own threads?

Would they create 460 TMP threads that mention chupacabras?

Would Neanderthals create threads and then post 60% or more of the messages in those threads? Would they bump their threads for years and years with scanty and dubiously relevant "new information?"

What do YOU think?

They would have better manners than my 15 year old son and his friends.

Porfirio,

Ever heard of the Stifle function?
And, did you know that, when you pull up any message board, you can actually sort the threads by starting date?

The solutions are there for all your woes! So easy, a caveman could do it. :)

Dan

Are there any online Star Trek pictures out there of what Klingons looked like during their pre-firearm days? Didn't they have some mythical hero from the past on a couple of TNG episodes?

That would be Kahless the Unforgettable (prounounced "KAY-less"), founder of the Klingon Empire and exemplar of all that it means to be Klingon.

His appearance is the same as 24th-27th century Klingons. (Though of course his one appearance in TOS revealed no cranial ridges, and his behavior was devoid of the "honor" ret-conned into TNG and later Klingons. Fortunately, his appearance was in a very forgettable episode— well, one you'd want to forget, anyway— so the change in character and appearance in the TNG era is both acceptable and welcome. Oh, and to clarify, the TNG Kahless was cloned from blood that remained on an ancient knife known to have delivered his death blow. (See spoiler below for an interesting twist.))

There was an episode of TNG (or maybe Voyager?) where a Klingon "devolved" into a prehistoric Klingon ancestral creature, but I've never seen the episode in full, so I don't know what the creature looked like, or if it was even shown in full.

[SPOILER ALERT] A subsequent novel, Kahless, which is quite good, reveals the blood actually belonged to someone else than the historical Kahless. And that's all I'm saying about that. [END SPOILER]

. So, in a world without Sapien diseases, the Neanderthals would continue to thrive and evolve. The question still is . . . how far along would they have developed by this time (21st century)?

I presume that bthey would develop very similar diseases, spread by the exact same factors that spread Sapien diseases: overcrowding, malaria, naughty habits…

There would undoubtedly be an exchange. But, like with the natives the Europeans encountered in the 16th century and later, one side could easily be worse off.

Just a thought.

Dan

I was an anthropology student in the late 80s when the popular phylenology had not yet cut them out of the evolutionary picture.They were seen as a successful cold adapted human and geneticists of the 80s claimed there were neanderthal biological remnants which could be traced to them in current European populations.Neanderthal vs Gigantopithecines(sasquatch) hmmmm…. would be like Davey Crocket vs Chewbacca.

The CBC would have a show called "South of 60". There is a line north of which Neanderthals did not (could not?) live.

It is very likely that Neanderthal civilization would have developed in directions different to Western European sapiens. They were a different species and favored different environments. It is however likely overly romantic to posit that they would have been gentle artists, living in harmony with Nature. Humans ruthlessly exploit Nature to the best of their abilities. Neanderthal likely would have been the same in that.

Actually Neanderthals belong to the same species as Archaic Sapiens and Modern Sapiens, the species H. Sapiens. Neanderthals are placed in the subspecies H. sapiens neandertalensis, with modern humans placed in the subspecies H. sapiens sapiens.

There was also some overlap of environments.

A rather more interesting take on the thread topic is one that I have toyed around with for years…what if several of the pre/proto/other "men" survived to the modern age?

Given the option for several varieties of "men".

Keying off primary differences: (opinion based for gaming/character numbers)

H.sapiens sapiens…a starting point for reference, you and me

H.neanderthalensis (old classification)…stronger, tougher, and higher constitution…significantly less creative thinking, single minded, and have a cultural spiritual bond that all adhere to or suffer banishment

H.floresiensis…3' tall, light weight, high constitution and dexterity…reduced strength and toughness

and then some exotics

P.boisei picture evolved into a specialized race with knowledge of the natural world at the same level of creative process that H.sapiens has for tools…not hippies by any means, we hates the hippies, but rather they carried a need to find, explore, and know why the natural world works…that stats are the same as H.sapiens with limits of skill choices and options of unique skills (retained a relative look of the picture presented)

Cro-magnon picture yes yes I know, modern scholars agree that the five cave dwellers noted as Cro-magnon were in fact a long bone generational offshoot and were absorbed into the pantheon of the modern man grouping, but for this case much like Pluto we are keeping them on the books taller (8-9'), heavier, stronger, tougher…slower, less dexterous, subject to fear/discrimination due to great size except for certain roles (sports, military, etc.)

insert others…at this point any could fit within the process.

I also like to play with the look of the globe, going for a different look picture allowing for thousands and thousands of islands, so small pockets of "men" could exist.

As this is all science fantasy, the opportunity is wide open.

So you have the three foot man through the nine foot man (yes there are tall guys now, but these guys are all tall/big without the glands/bones/health issues) as well as those who have special gifts for technology, natural science, and physical endeavors (mind, body, spirit).

Comparison of skulls for reference picture

***********

No way to tell what would have happened if H.neanderthals had surpassed us as the captains of the ship…I suspect the world would be much the same as it is, they had much of the same potential just less opportunity, due to economics of food, shelter, climate.

Maybe a few differences in the way they got to 2010, maybe the creative spark was stronger as noted in the late 1980's or there may have been less of a need to use the environment…the early man was always the calling card of those darn dirty hippies, so maybe the world of 2010 with the Neanders at the helm would be a less populated, less strained, cleaner, happier place…or it could be a wilderness without a captain due some unforeseen illness.

Who knows?

I always find the idea of multiple human species surviving to the modern age an interesting one – although its possible with the advances in weapons technology, only one species might have survived through the 20th century.

Especially if there were more blood types, say like dogs with eight blood groups (A1, A2, B, C, D, F, Tr, He), and if applied to these different species of men this blood typing could make it nearly impossible for cross breeding of the species later down the line. Exceptions to be sure, but the normal would hold true most often.

So if there were say thirteen blood types/groups and H.sapiens sapiens had A, AB, and O with +/- antibodies and Cro-magnons had F,E, and FE…they could never conceive.

Then the blood lines would not muddy and could potentially make it into a future setting.

Truthfully I like the idea of an earlier time consideration than current day, say an assumed similar history arc and mid sixteen hundreds; Renaissance.

Now that offers an interesting setting…with highly specialized artists from various species…music, art, literature, politics, religion, government, and especially colorful warfare.

PS
Dan, sorry for hijack :)

Hi,

little off topic..but interesting..

Krapina Neanderthal museum

mhz.hr/krapina.html

link

some more..

link