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"Hannoverians at Waterloo" Topic


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5,740 hits since 7 Jun 2010
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Comments or corrections?

archstanton7307 Jun 2010 3:00 a.m. PST

Just a quick check--Did they have Belgic or stovepipe shako?? I'm sure it's stovepipe but just need to check before buying!!

Sparker07 Jun 2010 3:27 a.m. PST

If you are refering to the army raised 1 Feb 1814 then frankly its a bit of mixed bag; Bn Lueneberg,Bremen, Bremen Verden, Langrehr, Calenburg and Militia bns had Stovepipes, Bennignsen had WHITE belgics, Verden had black Belgics. My source is MAA206 by he whose name must not be mentioned…

Kind Regards,

Sparker

SJDonovan07 Jun 2010 3:42 a.m. PST

The Mont St. Jean site is a useful guide. It shows mainly stovepipe but with some Belgic shakos for the officers: link

Musketier07 Jun 2010 3:57 a.m. PST

Mont Saint Jean is indeed useful, but looks perhaps more late 1814 than June 1815 in this case. From what I've been reading, in theory the Line ("field") battalions should have had Belgic shakos by 1815, the Light and Landwehr stovepipes.
In practice it seems that the latter had mostly received their stovepipes, but several Line units or parts thereof wore peaked caps rather than Belgic shakos – confusingly, making them look more like militia than the actual militiamen…
Officers of both Line and Landwehr, having to equip themselves according to regulations, would have been wearing Belgic shakos, only the Lights' officers clinging to their stovepipes.
- The above is my take on the situation, and how I plan to build my own Hanoverian contingent, however I'm happy to be corrected by anyone with more detailed knowledge.

Camcleod07 Jun 2010 8:03 a.m. PST

A somewhat complicated subject – as with most dealing with the Hanoverians in 1815.

From what I have read most of the Hanoverian Line and Light Bns. had been re-equiped by the time of Waterloo.
The Line Bns. would be in Belgic shako, the Light Bns. in stovepipes, Kielmannsegge's Jagers probably in stovepipes, but maybe still some caps. The Mont Saint Jean site shows many units in caps , but I've seen little evidence for whole units being in them – maybe a few and some of the officers.

The Landwehr wore the stovepipe shako, their officers in Belgic.
Also, a number of officers and sergeants of the K.G.L. were assigned to each of the Landwehr bns. These would be in the uniform of their parent unit. This includes both Line and Light units of the K.G.L. and they were assigned in a somewhat haphazard manner, so you could have K.G.L. Light officers in green and stovepipe assigned to a red coated Ldwr. bn.

Also see:
PDF link

Cliff

Marc the plastics fan08 Jun 2010 2:21 a.m. PST

White Belgics – is this a cover or the actual shako?

Musketier08 Jun 2010 5:40 a.m. PST

uncovered in dry weather, with oilskin cover during June showers.

John Franklin08 Jun 2010 8:59 a.m. PST

Gentlemen,

It might be of use if I contribute some of the information taken from one of the the original manuscripts found in Hannover – Hann.41 XXI Nr.156 – relating to the Hanoverian (as opposed to the King's German Legion) troops during the Waterloo campaign. The following is a translation of the document written by Captain Carl Müller of the Hanoverian General Staff, which is undated, but which undoubtedley is from early 1836, as the other documents in the folder are of this date. It reads:

'Description of the clothing worn at Waterloo on the 18th June 1815 by the Hanoverian troops.

2nd Division, 3rd Brigade – Colonel Halkett

Osnabrück Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a tapered design (spitz) [e.g. the old stovepipe design, of which no foul weather covers were known to exist]

Quakenbrück Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was black. The battalion wore shakos of a Portuguese design [which were normally supplied with the foul weather cover, worn as standard in 'all' types of weather, regardless of the conditions, to ensure that the headdress remained in good order].

Salzgitter Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a tapered [stovepipe] design.

Bremervörde Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a tapered [stovepipe] design.


3rd Division, 1st Brigade – Major-General Count von Kielmansegge

Lüneburg Light Infantry Batt: Green jackets with black facings and green pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was black. The battalion wore shackos of a Portugeuse design.

Duke of York Light Infantry Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a Portugeuse design.

Grunbenhagen Light Infantry Batt: Red jackets with dark green facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was black. The battalion wore shackos of a tapered [stovepipe] design.

Verden Light Infantry Batt: Red jackets with light green facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a Portugeuse design.

Bremen Light Infantry Batt: Red jackets with black facings and dark blue pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was black. The battalion wore shackos of a Portugeuse design.


Feldjägers (or Jägers): Green jackets with light gree facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was black. The Jägers wore shackos of a tapered [stovepipe] design.


5th Division, 5th Brigade – Major-General [sic] Vincke

Hameln Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with darl blue facings and either grey or white pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a tapered [stovepipe] design.

Giffhorn Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a tapered [stovepipe] design.

Hildesheim Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with light yellow [as opposed to dark yellow] facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a Portugeuse design.

Peine Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with light yellow facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shackos of a Portugeuse design.


Reserve, 4th Brigade – Colonel Best

Lüneburg Landwehr Batt: Red jackets with dark blue facings and grey pantaloons. All of the leather equipment was white. The battalion wore shacks of a tapered [stovepipe] design.

The above details are repeated for the Osterode, Verden and Münden Landwehr Battalions.

The following notes accompany the above report:

1. The uniforms were similar to the British cut uniforms of the period.

2. The green uniforms were cut in a similar fashion to those worn by the light battalions of the King's German Legion.

3. Only the officers of the Lüneburg Light Infantry Battalion wore unifrms without lace similar to the 2nd Light Battalion of the King's German Legion.

4. All of the shackos were black.


I do hope that the above helps. (Please forgive any typos.)John

John Franklin08 Jun 2010 9:12 a.m. PST

Sorry, I should have added that I am happy to contribute other material on the Hanoverians I have taken from the manuscript sources in Hannover, Osnabrück and Bremen, plus several other, smaller, municiple archives in Germany. John

John Franklin08 Jun 2010 12:42 p.m. PST

Once again,

I've just been checking my papers and can confirm that a copy of the reports by Captain Carl Müller is also contained in Hann.38 D Nr.180 (it being one of the many folders for information on the supply of army equipment). The original reference – Hann.41 XXI Nr.156 – relates to material sent to Lt. William Siborn, which this report was a part, after having received a request from Rowland, Lord Hill, in 1835. John

Sparker08 Jun 2010 8:17 p.m. PST

Wow, Thanks John for going to that trouble.

Kind Regards,

Sparker

von Winterfeldt08 Jun 2010 10:24 p.m. PST

Great information, thank you

Musketier09 Jun 2010 1:42 a.m. PST

Many thanks John for making all this information available!
I shall now have to revise my plans – and stand chastised for my meteorological flippancy!

archstanton7309 Jun 2010 2:22 a.m. PST

Thanks for the info!! I will use stovepipes as they seem to be most common--and then I can also use them in the Penninsular as british!!

SJDonovan09 Jun 2010 3:51 a.m. PST

This is an interesting thread guys. Have there been anymore sightings of the elusive white Belgic shako mentioned by Sparker – because I really fancy painting up a unit wearing those.

NigelM09 Jun 2010 4:25 a.m. PST

The white shako was worn by the Field Battalion Bennigsen in the Autumn Campaign 1813. They were tropical issue the body of the shako was white and as it was not a cover the shako plate was visible. They have been depicted as both stovepipe and belgic types possibly both were worn.

link

link

Renamed Verden by Waterloo so uniforms as described by John Franklin above.

SJDonovan09 Jun 2010 5:02 a.m. PST

Thanks Nigel (and cheers to Sparker for the original mention). I'm going to have to have a battalion of them.

Sparker09 Jun 2010 8:09 p.m. PST

Yes they will be a conversation piece – probably along the lines of 'Oi mate – yer forgot to topcoat that mob!"

John Franklin10 Jun 2010 1:32 a.m. PST

May I add a further point to the discussion about the Hanoverian troops (including those of the King's German Legion) at Waterloo. I have had several people contact me through the 1815 Limited website asking about the weapons of the KGL, especially the marksmen from the various Line Infantry Battalions, and I have been able to call on the assistance of my friend, Dr. De Witt Bailey, the most knowledgeable scholar on the matter that I know, and of course well-published on small arms (as well as cross checking the records in the archives in Hannover). De Witt confirms that each of the Line Battalions at Waterloo had received a quantity of the new 'browned' arms, or light infantry pattern musket in 1814. None of them received rifles. However, it is interesting to note the returns for the 2nd Light Infantry Battalion, albeit that they were taken after Waterloo, which show that the battalion was equipped with both muskets and rifles. Indeed, almost half of the men carried muskets of an unspecified design (although these would have certainly included the light infantry pattern). John

jammy four Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Jun 2010 7:44 a.m. PST

John

fascinating piece of detective work which must have taken
you years,and very much welcome as it varies in part from
many of the "poor" secondary sources i have seen ,
i wonder exactly what the new "browned " arms were, maybe
we will never know. a nightmare for re-supply i guess!!.
i wish someone had drawn some of these troops like the
brother Suhr did…………then you could be proved
right beyond compare. Still a contemporary letter is virtually a seal of confirmation of accuracy in description

appreciate your contribution
regards
Ged
gjm.figurines.co.uk

1815Guy14 Jun 2010 5:46 a.m. PST

If I am not mistaken, "Browned "arms is a finish to the barrel to stop it rusting.

As to the rifles, those Hanoverian guys will pinch anything you leave lying around…..

John Franklin14 Jun 2010 11:52 a.m. PST

I am not sure the Hanoverian troops were known for anything other than their courage and excellent behaviour. However, the 'browned' barrels were actually created in a number of ways. Initially they were painted, but in the end the best method was to create a 'rust-like' appearance by treating the metal with chemicals, although this had no detrimental effect on the performance of the weapons. John

John Franklin26 Aug 2010 10:03 a.m. PST

This piece of additional information I have recently obtained might be of use for those of you who are trying to clarify the issue of rifles to the King's German Legion:

Niedersächsisches Hauptstaatsarchiv Hannover; Hann. 38 D, Nr.180: Return of Arms of the 2nd Light Battalion, King's German Legion, dated Steierberg, 5th February 1816 (just prior to the disbandment of the KGL):

Rifles: 240
Muskets: 166

As stated previously, the muskets issued were almost all noted as being 'Browned Arms' or the new Light Infantry Pattern. John

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