"Malplaquet OOB" Topic

Has anyone got the Allied and French OOB in a word or pdf format I could get a copy of ?

link

I am afraid that it is not possible to do a decent Malplaquet OOB for either side as we have no sources that cover all the parts of the armies. We have some information for parts of the OOB for both sides but nothing that gives the overall picture.

You might find some material that claims to be the OOB of the battle but it will be of the armies at the start of the campaign. Between the time of the OOB and the battle there were many changes in the OOB so these 'at the start of the campaign' OOB are basically useless.

I kept quite because I wanted to see if a miracle would happen and someone actually had come up with the thing. Unfortunately, alincoln1981 is just about right, and the recent book on the battle out of Partizan Press hasn't helped nearly as much as I would have hoped. Here is what I have:

- Malplaquet by Maurice Sautai has a map which shows French INFANTRY location for the day of the battle by battalion, regiment and brigade, nothing on the horse.

- Anna Beek's map of the battle from the German Marburg Digital Archives (yes, free download) gives the exact position and IDs by name the Allied horse and Schulenburg's Allied infantry corps on the map. Further, the legend gives a command breakdown by name, brigadier and regiment, but you really have to understand how this schematic worked back then to use it. French – zip.

- Schulenburg's memoirs gives another detailed breakdown of his infantry assault force, and yes, it does differ from Anna Beek (the memoirs are downloadable from Google Books). French – zip.

- My friend Iain Stanford has done multiple spreadsheets on the Allies using Beek, Theatrum Europaeum and others. Nothing on the French.

Notice what's missing? The French and especially the French horse, for which I have long thrown in the towel. You find that and you will truly be my hero.

Good luck, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.grouply.com

The Nafziger collection has the British
PDF link

and the British right wing PDF link

I recently bought the partizan press " Malplaquet 1709 by Christopher Scott" hoping it would answer my French questions also, It has a excellent OOB and is highly recommended.

cheers
Matt

bluewillow/Matt:

I am afraid that the OOB that Chris has in his Malplaquet book is based on the early OOB's I mentioned earlier and wrong :(

Arthur Barbera, the noble Frenchman who has set up his own museum of the battle in Bavay, and who has spent thirty years researching on the battlefield itself and extensively amongst published and unpublished correspondence, is on the verge of publishing the results of his research in 300-400 page magnum opus. This will include the results of his work on the OOBs, where he believes he has substantially resolved the questions on the composition of the French Horse. Unfortunately this book requires a subscription of 500, at 63 Euros a time, for it to make it to the printers. I am assured it will contain large numbers of documents and a number of his unrivalled maps. I understand that as of last week, subscriptions stand at 417. I have not seen the manuscript yet, although I hope to some time in the not too distant future, so cannot comment authoritatively on its quality. But I am sure some of the experts on this board will have seen his work, produced in collaboration with Daniel Penant "L'affaire des Suisses a Malplaquet – Les Assauts sous le Prince d'Orange, le 11 Septembre 1709", and will probably get a picture for the likely end product. We can but hope – I am sure Arthur's work will add considerably to our knowledge of this battle, but I suppose complete resolution of these issues is out of the question.

Mollinary

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

YYYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS

alincoln beat me to it. I have Scott's book, as I noted above, and was very disappointed, though to be fair he does say up front that his OBs are a SWAG and that nobody knows for sure. However, there are IMHO a couple of definitive sources on at least some portion of the armies that fought there. Again, Schulenburg's memoirs gives the exact composition, deployment and command structure for his infantry corps, and since he was there as this formation's commander, what more could you ask for. Yet Scott's OB is quite different and he never makes any mention of consulting Schulenburg at all. The same thing with Maurice Sautai's work, which does stand as the official French military history of the battle. His schematic of French infantry deployment comes from two archival documents, one of which is an actual map of French dispositions drawn by Chevalier Naudin, Villar's engineer who was physically present at the battle. Again Scott does not agree nor does he mention if Sautai was consulted.

Overall I got the impression the research done for this book was quite . . . selective, so I too am waiting to see what Barbera's comes up with. From what I have been able to discern he has an excellent reputation.

PS. In my copy of Scott. the Table of Contents list both an Appendix and Bibliography, but both are missing from the book, simply not there. This didn't help.

PPS. Schulenburg specifies an official count made of Allied losses, provides a detailed breakdown, and comes up with 24,263. Somehow this didn't make it into Scott either.

I swear this battle will put me into therapy.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.grouply.com

@Mollinary – that book sounds interesting, will look for it and subscribe, so making 418…

@colonel bill – agree with everything you say, I also have his Oudenarde, they are not researched in any depth, however after saying that I would still recommend them as good introductions or for those that just need some details for a wargame, unfortunately I had gone much further by the time I got the book (the maps were so so)but it still made interesting reading.

@Mollinary – This is great news and I look forward to the book. Can you put a link to the place to subscribe?

@Graf Bretlach – I agree generally on the Scott books. The text is usually just a reworking of the standard accounts. But I thought the OOB's in the Oudernaarde book were excellent.

Mollinary: This is great news. Can you post a link to the place were we can subscribe to the book?

Graf bretlach: I agree generally. The text of Scott's book is usually just a reworking of the classic accounts. But with his Oudernarde book I was impressed by the OOB's.

Guys,

I'll see what I can do – it may be an address rather than a website. Sadly Arthur is away at present so I have not had the opportunity to discuss with him how best people might contact him. I should point out, as I realise I failed to do in my original post, that the book will be in French!

Regards

Mollinary.
By the way, as a piece of re-assurance, I have no commercial interest in this, I am just someone who has already subscribed keen to help Arthur get it published!

I understood it would be in French, thats not a problem.

Any books on this period should be encouraged and supported, including authors like Scott & Falkner.

thanks

There was a great set of posts that has data and a comment on the units too. I have consolidated the posts into one – see below. The posts got great feedback.

OK now to the information so far. These are the battalions of the first line shown on the map comprising Schulenburg's command attacking the Bois de Sars. They are listed from right to left facing the wood. The comments are my own from attempting to clarify the information.

Thugen – Listed in Sautai as Imperial. Have located Regt.Thungen in Imperial information I have, so assume it is that regt.
Baden – Listed in Sautai as Imperial. Also located in Imperial info.
Hessian Grenadiers – Listed in Sautai.
Erbefeld – Listed as Munster in Sautai
Cauagnac (Cavagnac?) – Unable to identify this battalion
Caris – Listed as Walloon in Sautai
Holstein battalion Heruilles
Wurtemburg – Not listed in Sautai, but my info. suggests there is an Imperial unit of this name. Could also be the Wurtemburg Guard Grenadiers listed in Sautai.
Wilke – Closest match in Sautai is the Hessian Battalion Wilckens
Saxon Guard – Listed in Sautai
Danish battalion Fynske. Google suggests Fuhnen is the early name for the Fyn Island.
Danish Guards(3) – Listed in Sautai.

2nd Line
Thungen – Presumably the 2nd battalion of the regiment listed in the 1st line. Sautai only list 1 battalion, however.
Lubeck (Palatinate) – Listed in Sautai
Isselbach (Palatinate) – Not listed in Sautai.
Wolfenbuttel (Wolfenbuttel) – Listed in Sautai as Erbprinz von Wulfenbuttel
Castel (Ansbach) – Listed in Sautai
Hermann (Wurtemburg) – Listed in Sautai as 'Hormans'
Exter (Hessian) – Listed in Sautai as Exeter. I think this is possibly the
Hesse-Kassel Regiment Exterde
Baumbach (Hessian) – Listed in Sautai
Furstenburg (Saxon ) – Listed in Sautai
Collr Pr. – Have not been able to identify this unit. The abbreviation 'Pr' may signify 'Prince'. The next two units are
Danish which may point to it being a Danish regiment.
Bielke (Danish) – Listed in Sautai
Oldenburg (Danish) – Not listed in Sautai, but present at Oudenarde.

3rd line
Bade (Imperial) – In Sautai but only 1 battalion listed. Possibly a second battalion
Dahlberg (Imperial) – InSautai
Taston (or Tastung) (Wurzburg) – Not in Sautai
Saxe-Meiningen (Palatinate) – In Sautai
Stolebasch (Palatinate) – In Sautai as Stultzbach
Beveren (Wolfenbuttel) – In Sautai
Feloh – Sautai list a regt Flohr (Mecklenburg-Schwerin). Bit of a stretch, but I have found nothing closer in name
Dolsuperche (Walloon) – In Sautai
Prinz Maximillian (Hesse-Kassel) 2 btns – Not in Sautai
Stuckradt (hessian) – In Sautai
Sternfels (Wurtemmburg) – In Sautai
Wackerbarth (Saxon) – In Sautai
Ogilvy (Saxon) – In Sautai
Boisset (Danish) – In Sautai as Boisact
Schwartzel (Danish) – In Sautai

Opps – just relaised that Mike's link is to the very same OOB. Thanks Mike !!

Just shows all 'non-points' systems are broken.

desmondo

Glad you found my postings on the LoA website of interest.

Chad

Chad – really good stuff.

I am now trying to read A.Becks map and OOB….I think my eyes are telling me to quit !!

Desmondo,

Here is the exact OB from page 423 of Schulenburg's memoirs, ie, Beilage XXIX, Schlachtordnumg bei unter Schulenburgs Befeylen stehenden 40 Bataillone in der Schlacht bei Malplaquet:

General der Infanterie Feldherr von der Schulenburg in Sachsischen Diensten

1stes Treffen

GenLt Graf von Wackerbarth (Saxon) and GenLt von Harrach (Austrian) Commanding

MGs von Canitz in Sachs Dienst, Fechenbach (Austrian), van der Beck (Dutch)

Thungen – Austrian
Baden – Austrian
Hessian Grenadiers – Hessen Kassel
Ernefeld – Munster
Savagnac – Ansbach
Carl Rex – Wallonen
Hermiles – Holstein Gottorp
Wurttemburg – Danish
Wilke – Hessen Kassel
1st Bn Garde – Saxon
2d Bn Garde – Saxon
Garde – Danish

2tes Treffen

GenLt von Friesheim in Holl. Diensten, Commanding

MGs Landsburg (Dutch), von Zobel, von Sacken (Hessian)

Thungen, 2d Bn – Austrian
Lubeck – Pfalzer
Iselbach – Pfalzer
Wolfenbuttel – Brunswick
Castell – Ansbach
Herrmann – Wurttemburg
Exter – Hessian
Baumbach – Hessian
Furstenburg – Saxon
Churprinz – Saxon
Bielke – Danish
Weissenfels – Saxon

3tes Treffen

GenLt von Bettendorf on Churpfalz Diensten, Commanding

MGs von Sternfels in Wurtemb Diensten, von Schwarzel in Danischen Diensten

Baden, 2d Bn – Austrian
Dalberg – Austrian
Deaston – Austrian
Sachsen-Meinungen – Pfalzer
Sulzbach – Pfalzer
Bevern – Brunswick
Flohs – Mecklenburg
Delsuperche – Wallonen
Maximilian – Hessen Kassel
Erbprinz von Hessen – Hessen Kassel
Stockerath – Hessen Kassel
Sternfels – Wurttemburg
Wackerbarth – Saxon
Ogilvy – Saxon
Boisset – Danish
Schwarzel – Danish

I REALLY wanted to put Malplaquet into my new Age of Honor expansion module for Age of Eagles (Napoleonic Fire & Fury), but this is about all you are sure of, I just found it too much to SWAG. BTW, Schulenburg's memoirs can be dowloaded free from Google books, go to:

link

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.grouply.com

Awesome – thank s a lot !

Does anyone have any information on the Command structure of the French cavalry ?

I have good info on the Infantry, and overall commanders, but cannot find the cavalry commanders (other than Marshal Boufflers)

Any help would be appreciated.

Desmondo

Might I suggest something easier, like peace in the Middle East or plugging the BP oil leak in the Gulf?

Seriously, Scott's book has one but its a SWAG from early in the campaign so likely incorrect. But, it might be as good as you are going to get right now. I've raised a white flag on this one and begged for mercy.

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.grouply.com

Maréchal Boufflers commanded the French army right wing.

A quick look in chandler gives

Général de la Vallière was overall cavalry & dragons commander

Maison du roi were under M. de Montesson

The chevalier de Luxembourg commanded the cavalry reserve

They are the big names, there would have been a ruck of Lt-généraux, Major- and brigadiers of horse & dragons, I'm sure someone will produce them, I hsve just started on this battle

I don't have Sautai yet (the google version isn't available at the moment)
Just started reading Lediard, Eugène & Schulenburg for details.

I expected Malplaquet, being a later battle would have loads of information, how wrong can you be? But slowly building up notes.

I have the following Imperial & Royal regiments present

Dragoner-Regiment Reising (1769 Nr. 6)
Obristlieutenant Johann Peter von Saint Amour

Kürassier-Regiment Mercy (1769 Nr. 33)
Obristlieutenant Theodor Franz Graf des Pilliers

Kürassier-Regiment Falkenstein (1769 Nr. 8)
Obristlieutenant Miscaut

forget where I got the info.

I can guess what a SWAG is, but what does it stand for?

SWAG – Scientific Wild Ass Guess.

By the way, Sautai indicates (quote), "The Maison du Roi was led by de Montesson; the cavalry was led by la Valliere, having under him on the right wing de Gaisson, de Magnac, de Bouzols and de Coigny."

Regards, Bill Gray
ageofeagles.grouply.com

Bill thanks, Chandler does seem quite reliable on this period, although his bataillon/canon allocations are a bit confusing, it is proving a good way to start building up an oob.

After spending some time looking for the Austrian regiments of Dalberg & Deaston, seems they are Würzburg regiments in imperial service.

Any news on the Arthur Barbera book?

For the french :
Chateauneuf (1btn) La Marck 2 btn, + brigade Perche (Perche, Foix, Santerre each 2btn) in Lanière forest and near Malplaquet, on september the 5th.
Betwween the forest and Grosse haye : 1st line Bourbonnais, Mortemart 2btn each. In rear, Piémont (3), Bourgone (2) and brigade Royal : royal(3), Royal Italien (1) and Boulonnois (1).
reserve in rear for this part : Navarre(3) Lorraine(2), Nice (1).
Blairon occupied by Lannoy (2), Alsace (4), Picardie (3), Royal Roussillon (2), Des Landes (1).
Then the Gardes françaises (4) and Gardes Suisses (2).
Betwween, a battery of 20 cannons supported by May (3), Brendle (3), Greder Suisse (2)
Betwween here to Sart forest : all irish brigade (Galmoy, O'Brien, o'Donnel, Dorrington and lee each 1 btn.)
After brigade Champagne : Champagne(3), Louvigny (2), Isenghien (1)and Brigade La reine : La reine(3),Béarn (3).
in second line, Koln guards and bavaria guards with on their left the Gendarmerie.
On the north side of sart forest : La Sarre(1), Royal La Marine and Boufflers (2 each), Charost and Sparre (2), And Le Roi, Saintonge 2btn each.
On the left Bretagne and Provence 2 btn each.
The general reserve on the rear was an infantry line including : Poitou, Guyenne et Chartres (2 each) Gondrin, Luxembourg et Greder Allemand (2).
A last brigade was on the left Tourville : Tourville, Perrin (2 each) and Croy (1).
The third line was composed of 250 squadrons of cavalry on all the front.
In France , the infanry was managed by brigade on this era : the name of each brigade takes name of the older regiment in each brigade . (the first of all is Picardie ).
So not easy to find the good regts when just the brigades names are given…
Source : My late friend , P . Fouré " les trophées de la Guerre de Succession d'Espagne".
Sorry for my bad english…
JLB