"Reasonable force for an Imagi-Nation?" Topic

Hello,

I've been lately going around the creation of an 18th Century Imagi-Nation ( what-if-catalonia.blogspot.com ), so that have started collecting some information that should help me building such a fictitious State.

One of my main current concerns is giving an adequate, reasonable size to the armed forces of that Imagi-Nation, either in peace times or at war.

I guess that in peace times the size of an army would be drastically reduced, but can't imagine in which proportion it might be. So I'd like to ask for your oppinion on this subject: what Army size would be expectable for a country close to 750.000 inhabitants, in both situations -war and peace?

I am equally doubtful about expectable Navy size, for a country with some maritime pretentions: two or three dozens ships? which proportion of classes? -I mean, any 3-decked? Mostly 2-decked? …or frigates and brigantines instead? How much time was needed to build a new ship?

Think Bavaria or Wurtemburg from the Napoleonic period. Roughly 10-12 regiments.

For the Navy (even if landlocked) I suspect 2-3 SoL (100's?) 4-6 74s and a dozen or so Frigates

Didn't London have close to a million residents at that time period? Maybe you should boost your population. Find out populations of some of the postage stamp countries at that time. How big is your country going to be?

I guess you could figure out the average age of mortality then the percentage of different age groups then the percent of the populace of military age in the military. Is there conscription?

I used Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel as a sort of rough guide although I am probably a little heavy in cavalry.

link

ost-pommern.blogspot.com

Do a whole world ..I did/have
link

Table size can limit the size of your army too.

I am reading a fair bit on the seven years war at the moment so I am afraid I cannot recall which books this is from, but: 1 soldier to 100 population was considered normal for a continental power, 1:75 was doing well, and 1:30 or so was Prussia.

For ships: Does your alternate Catalonia have overseas possessions? If so, I would pro-rate the Spanish navy size based on population. If not, IIRC the Austrian possessions at the time included a fair hunk of coastline and no navy to speak of.

Lentulus has it right – about 1:100 was what most 18th century countries could manage. One thing about the Seven Years War, even the big battles were, by Napoleanic standards, not all that big

So – probably a standing army of about 8,000 – maybe 12 or so infantry battalions, mostly line with a guard or grenadier battalion or two and a light infantry battalion or two, plus four or five cavalry regiments, again maybe one or two guard/cuirassier regiment, two or three dragoons and one or two hussar regiments, plus a small artillery train and a few depot or garrison battalions

Prussia would have had more, but they were the rate exception – an army in search of a country

Mmmmmm…

The actual country I'm inspiring on is the Principality of Catalonia, with a slightly smaller area than Belgium or the Netherlands. I don't believe that my 750,000 inhabitants premise has to be revised, for it is based on latest History researchers estimations during the 1710-1720 period. By that time, Barcelona's population was 35,000 -about 1/10th of that of London, which was 350,000 by 1665-1666 according to my data.

In its desperate effort of 1713-1714, Catalonia mobilized up to 9-10 line infantry regiments, besides of a similar number of mountain fusiliers battalions, as well as an absolutely uncertain quantity of volunteer and militia units totalling from 5,000 to 10,000. As for regular units, their theoretical force was to be 1,000 men per regiment, although the average force has been recently estimated in about a half.

That would make a total force of 15,000 to 20,000 foot men in arms, that is a 1:50 to 1:37.5 ratio. According to Lentulus estimations, that would mean to be a quite militaristic society -unless we had in mind the exceptional circumstances of such a historic military effort. In the end, it would seem reasonable that, after the danger passed, a country the size of Catalonia would have reduced its mobilized army to the half.

As for the Navy, I was tempted to try and copy the Netherlands numbers for my what-if-nation, but by that time Holland already was a naval power, and my imagi-nation still has to be born; so that no comparison was realistic. I'm still quite doubtful in this matter.

I have lately compiled a list of the improvised Navy gathered by the Catalans during the 1713-1714 WSS final campaign ( link ), and it seems to have consisted of: 4 so-called "Navilis" (=Ships, literally) with some 30-40 guns each, 6 "Fragates", 9 "Brigantines" and about 50 "Tartanes de guerra". I guess these last to be no more than gunned Barks or small Transports.

It is likely that such a newly born country would have some maritime pretentions -albeit limited to the Western Mediterranean at first-, for it would be ruled by the industrial-trader free-commerce thalassocracy that provided the main war effort. It sounds reasonable too that a little force or maybe 2-3 big SoL was built, mainly to escort trade convoys to the Americas -if any chance was given to.

Am I any wrong?

"In its *desperate* effort of 1713-1714"

That would account for your ratios, I expect. Is your new nation peaceful or, like Prussia, strongly inclined to war?

For a continental power, a large fleet is a dangerous game -- all the fleets in the world cannot help you if your enemy can just walk to your capital.

What naval threats would exist for your state, and what weaknesses in its enemies could it exploit. If it is "Split off" from Spain at some definite point, did it get a distant colony or two in the bargain?

Lentulus, I couldn't tell you so far. The Imagi-nation itself is to be born yet -the explanation for this is that a gaming mate and I will be re-fighting the 1713-1714 campaign itself along with some random events. The final orientation of that what-if-society will largely depend on the campaign development and aftermath.

A militaristic state is a possible result, although I tend to believe that practical reasons (budget shortages after a 9 years war) would tend to drastical reduction of military expenses at a short term.

However, it becomes clear that such an Imagi-nation, enclosed between two major land powers such as France and Spain, would be forced to deploy a huge diplomatic effort, besides of building a really strong alliance with someone else (likely Britain), to prevent 'touristic walk-abouts' of neighbouring armies.

Same for naval threats. Although in gradual decline, Spain is still a major naval power -not to talk about France… If secured peace with at least one of these two, a likely rival for a Western Mediterranean supremacy might be Genoa/Savoy, and of course Tunisian/Algerian corsairs.

Your suggestion about eventual troubles of Spain in the Americas is quite inspiring. Actually there was a pro-Charles plot in Venezuela, and a better chance to 'pick up' something might be Florida, due to the advantage of having Britain as a potential ally in the nearby -but I'd learn more about this subject yet; I'm actually in the job!

I like the idea of a Catalan Imagi-Nation set in the early 18th century. The regular formations would be reduced to cadre strengths, while militia units would most likely be disbanded during peacetime. Still, it would seem reasonable to keep the border units up to strength, if only to control those who wish to avoid paying road tax and customs duties.

Piracy would pose a problem and there should be the periodic raids along the coasts, so you would have at least a coastal watch and heavier armed ships to protect your trade routes.

The entrepreneurial families would certainly have a representation in the New World. Our own Audencia de Caracas does not have a high military presence, but troops arriving from Spain would remain long enough to train the local militia and return home escorting the gold convoys.

Keep us further inspired.
Cheers,
Robert

A lot does depend on the size of the nation being developed.

For example hesse-casel was considered to have a decent sized army in 1781 with between 2,200 and 2,800 men. Limited on cavalry.

For a small-mid sized force. A battalion of jaegers operating in companies/detachments + a 2 regiment Brigade of Light cavalry and a two regiment brigade of Heavy cavalry.

A Brigade of Guard/grenadiers with 1 regiment each = the traditional brigades of garrison, fusilier and musketeer regiments.

navy for such mid-sized nations would be along the USA models of frigates and smaller.

For example hesse-casel was considered to have a decent sized army in 1781 with between 2,200 and 2,800 men…

With the other 20,000 being on loan to King Geore III to fight in the Colonies.

Your thoughts do make a good sense, gentlemen.

Starting from the actual, historic mobilization numbers to game my projected "Imagi-nation's birth" campaign, I had already dealt with a possible post-war reduction of the armed forces on the basis suggested by Timurilank --ie, thinning units down to their "skeletons". Although in fact I'd have into account the possibililty of some units becoming decimated after the war, so that a number of them will have to be re-formed or merged into another.

Thanks to your observations, I'm starting to imagine a post-war imagi-national army reduced to some 4 foot regiments of the line, 2 of them of naturals and the other 2 formed by other Catalan-Aragonese States naturals, or surviving foreigners (Germans, Hungarians, Italians); each one thinned to maybe 1/3rd of its theoretical force. Also, merging all the dragoon-cuirassiers(*) regiments into just two, at some half strength. It might be kept some 2-4 Mountain Fusiliers regiments at full strength instead, to have borders appropriately secured.

I was guessing about the role of Invalid regiments too -for it's expectable for such a military campaign to result in a significant number of disabled veterans. Were such units intended to provide some kind of pension/employment to men that had become too badly disabled for a fully civilian life? Might these Invalid units be used as a cheaper alternative to garrisoning forts and towns with regular troops?

Inversely to land forces, the gathered Navy should be applied some re-organization and investment; to either purchase usable hired frigates and brigantines, or to start a ship building plan. National authorities might be in charge of building some 2-4 two-deckers (no big ships of the line, then), while major cities such as Barcelona or Tarragona would be in charge of providing a small fleet of galleys -no more than one per major harbour, however. Although costly in terms of man power, galleys seemed to be still quite effective in coastal protection tasks, I figure.

Step by step, this imagi-nation is steadily growing in my mind, thanks to you all. Lots of thanks for your so valuable help!! …keep dropping your clever suggestions whenever you will!

(*) Quite a curious cavalryman category, actually fielded by the 1713-1714 Catalonian authorities. Most likely, it responded to a lack of heavy horses enough for the cuirassiers regiments, which where accordingly armed and used as dragoons.

For example hesse-casel was considered to have a decent sized army in 1781 with between 2,200 and 2,800 men…

With the other 20,000 being on loan to King Geore III to fight in the Colonies.

…And isn't there any Hesse-Kassel-like Imagi-nation willing to lend some of their surplus to a closer destination?

A lot of effort and thought into your campaign. The best of luck, Soldadets.

To me I love the development part of such a project. Though it will never be used or published, I am in the process of designing the background for an Osprey uniform style book for Victorian SciFi on Mars.

I find the project allows me enjoyment at several levels.

Enjoy your project.

As soon as Louis XIV dies, in the context of the War of the Quadruple Alliance, most of the pressure on newly independant Catalonia will me removed.

Though it will never be used or published, I am in the process of designing the background for an Osprey uniform style book for Victorian SciFi on Mars.

Even in pdf form? Or in the 'Files' of an appropriate Yahoo group? Or simply on your blog?

Wow a response to an old post. We are in the process of examiong several formats.

A big delay as we do not want to step on anybody's copyright toes. We have talked to a few miniature and publication manufacturers with mostly positive remarks.

I am not familiar with the styles that you have mentioned. I have put a few things on Magweb and Extra Crispy's Free rules website. But I am still mainly a paper kind of a guy.

A 8 1/2 x 11 format of 48 or so pages with a saddle stitch format.
A. Background only with color illustrations and uniform data.
B. Background data plus a campaign system woven into the rules. Then you have to decide what level of campaign. Skirmish/small unit or large scale Brigade/divisional?

C. Other options have been considered but rejected. Including a version that includes a rule set. Since we are trying to provide usefull information for establishing and enjoying and Mars VSF world this would narrow our appeal. So it was rejected.

We have many pages of unedited notes on background, terrain types/effects, races, armed forces weapons/ organizations, etc.

It has been a slow but enjoyable project. Reading different writer's visions plus examining the current products in regards to rules and castings. Super and a challenge.

Also with my open heart surgery in 2009 and an eye surgery last week, I have not been able to work on the many projects in my pipeline.