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"Tank main gun depression and hull-down" Topic


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Karsta31 May 2010 9:11 a.m. PST

I was tinkering with some Kallistra sloped hexes and started to think how hull-down works in real world and how should it be represented on tabletop. It seems that main gun depression is the most important feature when we are measuring ability to find hull-down positions (not prepared positions). I quickly threw together this chart that shows gun elevation ranges of some soviet, german and american tanks, both WW2 and modern: link

Sources are from internet so feel free to question any of the values. I hope it's accurate and comprehensive enough for purposes of this thread. It looks like german WW2 tanks had on average almost twice the maximum depression of soviet ones and american designs had even more. Situation is pretty much the same between modern western and russian tanks.

How much real advantage that extra 3 to 5 degrees of depression gives? Is that something that in your opinion should be represented in wargame rules?

If you had to choose some value of main gun depression as a limit between "good" and "poor" ability of finding hull-down positions, what would it be? Are there any other vehicle features that effect this hull-down ability (of course crew quality is a major factor)?

Can you think of any at least somewhat probable situations where gun elevation becomes the limiting factor?

Do you know any rulesets that handle hull-down exceptionally well? I'm also interested in how you handle these things when using sloped hills as opposed to usual stepped hills.

Thanks in advance!

Top Gun Ace31 May 2010 9:20 a.m. PST

If I recall correctly, this was a big issue in the Arab-Israeli Wars, since the Russian tanks couldn't depress their guns much.

If on a hill, you need to get onto the front slope, and to be exposed to fire on the target.

5% depression vs. 10% means that you'll only be able to fire at a target at twice the range of the one that can do so at 10%. After that, there is a blind zone where no firing can occur, unless you move out onto the front of the slope, assuming you can do that.

For a 10% ability to depress, you can fire down 1" of height for each 10" of range. For a 5% capability that is reduced to 1" of height difference for each 20" of range.

aecurtis Fezian31 May 2010 9:25 a.m. PST

How much was this a concern in the second world war?

Also, increased depression usually corresponds to a taller turret, and so a higher profile when not in defilade.

"5% depression vs. 10% means that you'll only be able to fire at a target at twice the range of the one that can do so at 10%. After that, there is a blind zone where no firing can occur, unless you move out onto the front of the slope, assuming you can do that."

Mmmph. That's not quite how the mechanics work. But never mind. For my purposes, the answer to:

"Is that something that in your opinion should be represented in wargame rules?"

…is a definite "No!". I don't play at that level.

Allen

Martin Rapier31 May 2010 10:52 a.m. PST

"Are there any other vehicle features that effect this hull-down ability (of course crew quality is a major factor)?"

In this sort of the thing, I think crew quality is the single biggest factor.

You have have the best most wizzy, heavily armed and armoured tank in the world, but put a crap crew in it and it is just another target. Rather like that skylined Tiger II in the Sandomierz bridghead which lasted about ten seconds once the Russians started shooting at it.

So, the big question isn't whether the gun can depress an extra three degrees, but whether the crew is trained and able to take advantage of cover to minimise their exposure. Depending on the level of game you play, this might be represented by some sort defensive bonus, saving throw or whatever (or maybe even a 'find hull down position' dice throw, as in the expansion to AHGCs Tobruk).

Mobius31 May 2010 11:06 a.m. PST

Yes, we have gun depression in Panzer War. It is a little more complicated than just roll a die. There are two ways to use it. If you use a flat table with contour lines there is one way to figure it. If you play on a sand table or terrain board there is another way. In which case you have to use a slope measuring device.

The basic principle is there is dead space in front of the tank based on its hill hull down factor and its ability to depress the gun. So if your tank didn't have a good gun depression it may have a dead space of 400 meter for a particular hull down. If it had a good gun depression it would have only a 200 meter dead space for the same hull down position. Tanks can adjust their hull down so a tank with a poor gun depression could go to a lesser hull down to lessen the dead space.

donlowry31 May 2010 11:41 a.m. PST

Just find a small rise of ground to get behind. No need to depress your gun at all since you're not ON the rise, you're behind it.

Wartopia31 May 2010 3:56 p.m. PST

I've only played tank simulators and it seems that we tabletop wargamers put too much emphasis on "hills". How often have you seen an opponent plop his MBT on top of a hill and declare it "hull down"?

But in the simulators and online games I've played (at least those that attempt to model tanks with some degree of accuracy) gentle, rolling terrain often provides good hull down positions. Steep hills provide few opportunities for decent hull down positions.

So it really does go to crew skill + terrain with elevation/depression being secondary.

A good crew can make a tank "disappear" in gently rolling "open" terrain. A bad crew on a steep hill is nothing but a target (which explains why they chose a steep hill…they're a bad crew either on the leading edge of the hill or hopelessly sky-lined and with huge dead space infront of their position).

Karsta31 May 2010 7:34 p.m. PST

Thanks for replies everyone.

Yeah, I guess I tend to put too much emphasis on technical aspects when in reality skill of the crew is the deciding factor.

Also good points donlowry and Wartopia: you don't necessary need a hill for hull-down and it's easy to become sky-lined when on top of one.

Thanks Mobius for reminding me of Panzer War. Perhaps a bit too detailed game for my taste, but it's usually easier to simplify detailed rules than to increase the amount of detail of simple rules. One thing though: couldn't find the chart rule 9.19.1 is referring to.

Fred Cartwright01 Jun 2010 2:18 a.m. PST

Just find a small rise of ground to get behind. No need to depress your gun at all since you're not ON the rise, you're behind it.

The problem with that is you have to find a rise of exactly the right height to put you hull down. Talking to a tanker friend of mine that's not so easy. Usually you end up on the rear slope of the small rise so you need to depress the gun to get it to bear.

Ditto Tango 2 101 Jun 2010 8:37 a.m. PST

[Edit] a common term we used to use for a fully exposed tank was (semi-vulgar term for breasts starting with the letter 'T')-Up, but this is bleeped on TMP, so I'm changing it to "exposed"

Forgive my blathering, but hull down is an important subject to my mind. grin Of course, I spent most of my military career trying to achieve such positions!

Just find a small rise of ground to get behind. No need to depress your gun at all since you're not ON the rise, you're behind it.

There is very rarely any such small rise of ground on a relatively horizontal surface. In fact, the only time you can rely on such a thing is if you have a dozer come and plough a hull down position for you. Indeed, I have seen officer cadets fail an evaluation in the armour school when they did actually find such a rise and got behind it; there's no avenue to back down away off the fire position, you are always exposed!

There's much, much more to fighting a tank than getting behind covering ground. You have to be able to move off your position which means, ideally, to be able to back out of sight, jockey left or right and come up into another fire position. The enemy sees you disappearing to re-appear suddenly, left or right (I won't get into what role the turret down position plays in such manoeuvring).

I commanded a Leopard I and I recall how many times a seemingly good position was just a little too steep for me to bring my gun low enough to cover the ground in front of me. Being able to pick a fire position is an art. A trained crew commander is always scanning the ground not only for enemy, but for his next position if he is advancing to contact.

If I were into super detail (which I am not), I would roll for each tank where the player indicates it is taking a hull down position to see whether or not the position is successful, ie, provides cover to the hull, allows the gun to depress enough to cover the area designated, is the bore clear of the ground in front of it. The more experienced the crew, the better the chance. Depression limits of the main armament would also figure into the roll. A failure at the roll means the tank has come too far forward or is forced to move forward (to lower the gun) and is completely exposed.

I've been on many exercises where I watch the main force take hull downs against my position – the less experienced commanders and gunners (it is the gunner that guides the driver and tells him to "HALT!" when the gunner can see the desired terrain through his sight) really frequently screw up. They either do not have the gun clear, or they've come too far forward and are completely exposed

To make it simpler, I might simply indicate that some tanks, with very low depression limits, cannot assume a hull down, but this, as Allen mentioned, depends on the range at which you are firing.

Hull down is relative Remember too, that that hull down is always relative. One of the best wargame examples I've seen of explaining this was in Frank Chadwick's first edition of Command Decision, I think (it's been nearly 25 years since I read it, so I could be mistaken). When you assume a hull down, you usually come up the gentle side of a slope and you stop when the gunner can see targets. This means that you will not see stuff in the ground that is much lower than you unless you move forward some, in which case, you become fully exposed to the enemy on elevations equivalent to yours, but then are hull down to the enemy in lower ground.

In this picture of one of my wargaming tables:

picture

There is a long hill on the side of the table labelled "Soviets" and a "Church Hill" (I like the model train church I have and almost all the games I put on have a "Church Hill" grin). Say a side is approaching from the Soviet side and takes up hull down positions on the long hill. I make my players specify "hull down to what?" In this case, it will initially be "to the top of church hill", in which case any enemy in the flat, low ground between Church Hill and the long hill will not be seen by tanks set up in such a hull down position.

Rolling Terrain As Wartopia and some others have indicated, there are terrain features and lay of the land that are very difficult to represent on a flat table with hills that we typically use for wargaming purposes. Yet this sort of configuration of real geography is vitally important in how tanks (and infantry) move themselves on the battlefield..

Because of that difficulty, for all intents and purposes, I tend to use small hill models that are sometimes so inconsequential that they are pretty much the "a small rise of ground to get behind" that donlowry mentions. grin You could always use what the Crossfire Hit the Dirt scenario book calls "ridges", and use a piece of string or some more aesthetically pleasing equivalent, to indicate many different places where the sloping ground changes from going up to down, behind which hull downs can be taken.

Models on Hills Remember what I said about the difficulty sometimes in successfully achieving a hull down? In this picture from the same game of the table picture above, a bunch of IS-2s are in a "hull down" position on the long hill, against Church Hill (on which there is a Panther or two) out of view, to the far right:

picture

Anyone can look at that and laugh at the ridiculousness of the appearance of these 1:72 scale tanks practically pointing at the sky! laugh But this is (yet another) model to terrain scale relationship limitation of terrain modeling and 1:72 wargaming. If I were to make a hill gentle enough to put the IS-2s on a really gentle slop, I'd have one hill that would probably be wider than my 5 foot wide ping pong table.

So that's another thing to keep in mind.
--
Tim

donlowry01 Jun 2010 2:43 p.m. PST

there are terrain features and lay of the land that are very difficult to represent on a flat table with hills that we typically use for wargaming purposes.

One solution to that is to cover the table with a cloth, and put things under the cloth to forms whatever size hills you want, including "rolling terrain."

BTW, I'm no expert here. Just a dumb wargamer, willing to learn from those of you who have actually served in the 1:1-scale monsters. To paraphrase Will Rogers, "all I know is what I read in books."

Gordon of TFP Games01 Jun 2010 2:45 p.m. PST

The WRG 1920-1950 1988 ed and 1950-2000 2nd ed both cover this. Basically the Soviets can HD on nice easy low slopes but can't on steeper ones. On a hill nobody can.

Yes it is a factor that should be covered as it is a vital technical limitation of modern soviet designs.

G

Moko5401 Jun 2010 8:39 p.m. PST

Just a few points to toss in the mix.

(1) Turret internal size and gun breach length within the turret is also a factor that effects gun depression. IE the gun may be able to be depressed that far BUT not if the gun is fired. (The internal capacity is a major problem suffered by Soviet tanks).

(2) Some tanks were designed with hull down positioning in mind (M-10/36 for example being open topped)

(3) It is the reason some tanks have very thick gun mantle armor.

(4) Crew training is a major factor in obtaining a hull down position, the 73 Yom Kippur War is a good example of this. Yes, hull down is a relative position to the target being engaged, and the IDF tankers were experts at identifying those types of positions relative to the enemy they wished to engage with fire.

Mobius01 Jun 2010 9:57 p.m. PST

Ditto Bird, while I agree the picture looks ridiculous it may not really be. It depends on the scale. If the linear ground scale is not the same as the vertical scale it could be perfectly fine. Our 6mm ground scale is 1:2000 scale but our vertical scale is 1:1 to the model scale. Thus a 1:285 vehicle is loaded 7 to 1 in the horizontal. That would make even a steep hill a very gental hill if the linear was stretched out to 1:1 scale.

UshCha07 Jun 2010 11:29 p.m. PST

As always the key is how much detail you need to make your model simulate the aspects you want to.

Clearly to get to very fine detail you need very fine maps which may not be practical or you can rely on random. Neither is ideal, The ultimate random is Spearhead which does most of its hill random, definitely not me.

Maneouver Group like most has stereo typed it to a standard. This is good enough for us as our objectives are about command and control and out thinking the opponent, so if the kit is a bit more identical that is an acceptable price. We have (horror of horrors) combined a dead ground rule and hull down on hills. This is easy for us as our hills have defined edged but many "real" not cardboard hills have such things. The dead ground for any element taking cover is 60m per contour (6 to 8 ft high) from the base of the hill. This is a bit of a stretch but remember the features are out of scale and it is an acceptable indication. It means anybodey taking cover on a crest line 6 countours up cannot see (or be seen), by anything closer than about 500m. To shoot at targets in the Dead griound of the hill you have to be in the dead ground and hence full exposed,

To make things simple we use the same value for shooting up hill. It is sufficient to get the feel but it is a bit more approximate and does not apply to high elevation guns like AA guns.

We make some allowance for un modelled terrain in that only 1/3 of the hills on "flat terrain" hit the hull. This is a twisting of the apparently faily standard result that only about 1/3 of tank hits are below 1 m up. This being so what about Dingos in WWII, Wiesels etc. Is the ground sufficently Rolling that these always dodge most of the rounds?

I guess my last question is how much does Hull down save. Currently we use 1/3 of hits. Again it is critically dependent on hull /turret size and shape but what is a good approximation?

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