"Free IvanDBA" Topic

Bill,

re:
TMP link

I saw that IvanDBA was DH'd for explaining what the BNP was in this thread.

I've read this thread an am a bit confused.. Politics over 10 years is discussible on TMP or not?

excuse me if its bad form to quote your faq back at you:

"Can I discuss politics here?
Recent politics are not allowed. [POLITICS RULE] Discussion of political events more than 10 years in the past is allowed."

I saw that IvanDBA was DH'd for stating the BNP was a hate group. their leader has convictions for Racial Hatred from 1998 ,has gone to Tripoli to Solicit funds in 1986 for his group, marched under and campaigned for office under Swastika banners when a National Front member from the 70s up until 1989 and at least 20 senior organizers have violence and racial hatred convictions including its Deputy leader.

These events go back further than 10 years.

Racial Hatred under UK law is a specific legal standard under the crime an disorder act 1998 and the Racial and Religious Hatred act 2006 and the public order act 1986 (s17-29) clearly and deliberately above commonplace interpersonal insulting, offensive, rude, disagreeable behaviour or reckless or even merely critical remarks, which is considered free speech.

Specifically it has to meet several tests:

1. outside and private dwelling or said privately with the intention to be heard publically

2.publication broadcast or performance intended to stir, incite or spread racial hatred. or posession of such material.

3. the same standards and circumstances apply to religious hatred.

4. lower standards apply to non-UK residents or non-UK citizens. Similar offences for organized singing and chanting at football matches also apply.

5. Case Law in the UK has decided that attacks meeting these standards on give groups on a nationality basis also meets these standards due to known accepted and understood geographical and cultural affiliations.

The prosecution guidelines for these offences detail judgements against offenders or associates based on previous offences, violence, effect on wider community safety

UK Law judges and holds groups to account not as organizations but through individual members and their aggregated conduct; this is to llow the freest possible expression and to encourage political diversity acknowledging that groups can and do reform themselves.

In the BNP's case their members continue to offend (in the indictable sense, not the interpersonal sense) up to this day and are only expelled when detected, prosecuted and convicted, has shown no such inclination

Indeed the BNP only recently removed racial exclusion criteria from its constitution when their funding was threatened under European treaty law,

The Swastika, like the johnny Reb in the US are not illegal, , but their inflammatory potential i recognized and controlled in various forms indirectly or specifically in the relevant jurisdictions.

the UK has a different Free Speech standard to the US having no overarching personal right, deferring rights to that not endorsed or proscribed by statute law.

It is this Clear, continued and persistent record which IvanDBA was explaining, if albeit succintly and without detailed background.

The fact is, in Modern England, "Nazi" carries its history of deeds with the mention of its name.

The same is undeniably true of the name "BNP" It's membership, whose leadership owns the organized conduct of its members.

I'm really happy to do my damndest to abide by and encourage others gently directly and by example to follow what rules you set, but its hard to shoot at your standard when the goalposts move.

I support wyeayeman actions in bringing up the issue in the first place but to be honest IvanDBA got no more than he was asking for.

He knew the rules, he and everyone else at that point had been given clear unmistakable warnings by the editor, to the effect "your point has been made now tone it down" he ignored the warnings and just ratcheted it up a couple of notches.

If you know the rules, know what you are doing without any shadow of a doubt breaks those rules and know what the punishment will be, well then you deserve what you get regardless of the rights or wrongs of your case.

This is no obscure personal attack that leaves everyone wondering why was he DH'd or something that wouldn't upset an 80 year old granny, this is clear cut, everyone knew what they were doing.

I think wyeayemanis is just yet another self righteous busy-body.
Exactly who are you/we/me to pontificate to others.

The likes of wyeayeman and others are just as bad as the BNP with their gang-up bully-boy tactics.

Ed was quite correct this has no place on TMP

People's Religious & Political are their own business – even if the stand in a election. That's why we have the luxury of living in a democratic society – with relatively free speech.

If Roland Hynd wants to waste his time & money standing for the BNP then that's up entirely up to him.

my point is that the politics classification is being drawn too broadly and without due sensitivity to UK readers here.
(For the Record I'man Aussie who's lived in the UK.. the earlier respondent in this thread is from..(checks profile) China? Marshall Islands)

and I think that was Ivans point too,

If say "X is nasty and I won't vte for him" thats a political statement based on a value judgement.

If I say "X has 10 parking convictions" that is just an expository statement of legal not political fact.

in this case the parking convictions were specific and continued offences against the laws I've detailed above.

It is like saying the sky is Blue and getting DH'd for it.

or trying to justify that "george Bush rides a bike" is political speech.

Its an issue of Criminal Conduct and the furtherance of those who seek to commit it.

Its inconsistent It just doesnt wash and won't do.. I'm not surprised UK/Brit TMPers are any or all of confused angry frustrated and upset over the editors actions.

The issue of the affiliation of a supplier would be an serious issue anywhere and justifiably raised concern.

My raising this issue is NOT a political one but a meta-TMP one concerning moderation.

While Bill is within his absolute right to act as he sees fit, I would hope he would do so without being deaf to the clear pleas of the UK posters in this thread who responded (without excessive rancour and I think Ivan DBA should be included in this.. mere incredulity is Free Speech in the US and UK) asking for him to allow the issue to be explored fully with more sensitivity and leeway from the editor to get at the local issues this was raising for the UK people affected.

I hope you appreciate I've tried to keep a level head in my posts and play the issue and not the man.

as to comparisons between the intentions and actions of wye and the Organization at issue by a earlier poster. It is fallacious beneath reproach and without merit.

(For the Record I'man Aussie who's lived in the UK.. the earlier respondent in this thread is from..(checks profile) China? Marshall Islands)

He should go back where he comes from then. ;)

Pat

For the record….

I was born in England 54 years ago, I am actually half english/half welsh (hope you don't hold that against me).
There is even a bit of Scottish and Irish in there as well if you go back far enough.

I currently live and work in Hong Kong along with many other expats wargamers (see here) hksw.org you can even see me here hksw.org/news.htm if you scroll down a tiny bit to the group photo

FWIW I always vote Labour and hate the BNP and I stand by what I said in this and any other posts….

I will refrain from replying to Sane Max becuase I was in the DH last week and don't want to go there again quite so soon, but he can take it as read my reply would be of the nature to get me there

I'd never heard of them before, but after reading up on the BNP it sounds like they are very active in British politics currently.

cheers BX, no worries, i'm trying to steer within beacons myself!

I read the original thread fairly compassionately for the UK locals and the reactions they were expressing at the revelations, with some background understanding of BNP of what appeared to me to be the normal grieving process of having that news revealed.. shock, grief, astonishment, a bit of denial and doubt, disbelief, flashes of anger and acceptance..

I can well imagine many people felt the news a "kick in the guts" as we say here and there's often a bit of rumpus and incredulity as people come to terms with it.

people's inhibitions drop in "sudden" circumstances like this and "stuff" gets said while adjusting to it.

I think its a misapprehension to reduce what transpired in the original thread to solely "political" discussion. people's accepted understanding of things got turned upside down with the bombshell news that got dropped.

UK folks were saying, almost begging in the original post "hang on, bill.. we need to digest this news together, we're hurtin."

I'm not really sure Bill recognized this. TLC and understanding was being asked for from Bill by several posters, not DHing. perhaps even comiseration would have been more appropriate,

Not another one!
I really haven't got room for all these free figures you know …

Too active by Far Oddball. I am in the 'Wyayeman done good' camp, and would rather suck the pus from a Tramp's feet than buy enything from Vendel ever again.

But Bill said 'No More Politics on here or else'.

Youse pays your money and youse takes your choice. IvanDBA slapped down his cash and said 'Cooler?'.

Pat

Bravo X wrote
"I was born in England 54 years ago, I am actually half english/half welsh (hope you don't hold that against me).
There is even a bit of Scottish and Irish in there as well if you go back far enough."

What a load of tosh! You were born in England – that currently makes you British – unless we all go our own ways in which case you will be English.

You've "always voted Labour" – so in some eyes you're complicit by association in your guilt of causing an illegal war and crimes against humanity – Congratulations your worse than a BNP member.
See what you've started! Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The BNP are a legal political party. Albeit with what I feel are very obnoxious undertones. But whether you like it or not they reflect a certain elements of our society and that's how democracy's work. If you don't like what they stand for then you don't vote for them.

cmon gloria.

I didnt raise the issue to get it trivialized or sidelined .. its about moderation.

Bob,

As you saw in the recent thread where I raised the issue of how TMP's unique business model affected its moderation policies, any serious discussion of changing the system is doomed to die in silence. This is a solely owned business enterprise as much as it is a hobby forum for the Editor, so setting standards other than "because I said so at this particular moment" directly effects his ability to control his business. Unreasonable? I'm not saying that – a man has the right to protect his livelihood, and TMP has been a pretty effective hobby platform. But will the inconsistency reach a point where it eventually effects his business anyway? That remains to be seen. At the moment, all the "criticism" is doing is skyrocketing his hits count and thus benefiting his primary business model anyway.

Ah, the bittersweet smell of irony.

ta CTW.. been enjoying your posts over at sam's

Sorry Bob! But what's the relevance of being half something or other?

But exactly where do you decide to stop when looking at individuals – their politics? their religion? their sexual preferences? where they buy their groceries? who they bank with? who runs their pension fund and who it's invested with?
Get my drift?

And who decides whether your or mine or Bravo X's opinion is the right one – it's very, very slippery slope singling individuals out for this sort of attention.

…how TMP's unique business model affected its moderation policies…

What is so unique about a website that is (largely) advertiser-supported?

…all the "criticism" is doing is skyrocketing his hits count and thus benefiting his primary business model anyway…

If you truly understood the TMP business model, you would know that TMP advertisers do not pay based on hits. There is no direct linkage.

I think it would be fair to let potential Jewish Ford buyers in the 1930s (and later) know that Henry Ford was a flaming anti-Semite.

We seem to have strayed a bit here. Information all of it accurate was posted that because of its political nature impigned upon the rules of TMP.

Some people on this thread and others seem to feel that this constituted a witch hunt that would lead to wargamers being judged on their political or religous affiliation or even what they do in bed. I think this is misplaced we were given the information we will react to it or not as we choose. Nor will any of this take place on TMP where the no politics rule is in force. Its a good rule in my opinion. In this case it was broken by people who wished to share information with other members here. That information was to my certain knowledge factual and not slander or libel. There were also other non UK members who asked for clarification as to the nature of the political party in question. So we are where we are. I sympathathise with those who felt the need to share information. I understand why Bill upheld the rules of TMP.

BravoX I believe Sanemax was making a joke based on BNP policy and not seeking to offend you.

Gloria congratulations on your elavation to post of Grand Detirminer of Other People's Identity. I hope you prosper. Its only fair though to let you know that not all people born in Britain are British or even English. If you keep in mind dual passport holders or even those born here who opt for a non British passport it might help with future adjudications.

I think it would be fair to let potential Jewish Ford buyers in the 1930s (and later) know that Henry Ford was a flaming anti-Semite.

So was Wagner. I refuse to listen to his operas on principle.

The principle that they're over long and overblown.

*rimshot*

wot hex said :)

@Gloria Smud
The relevance of my post was that it was focused on addressing Bob's statement that I was from "China" and therefore didn't understand UK 'sensitivities' and Sane Max's comment that I needed to go back to China.

When someone states they are half this or that the average person understands completely what they mean, it of course refers to be of mixed parentage, you seem to assert you are the exception in understanding that.

I mentioned it because if you were in the 'UK' and of Scottish, Welsh or Irish descent you may find that the 'English' similarly fail to understand the 'sensitivities' of others in the UK just as much as Bob is complaining about the Editor and also in case Bob or Sane Max may queries my 'ethnic' origins rather birthplace or passport status.

Oh – you seem to be confusing Citizenship ~(& passport) with where they were born.
BTW There's no such thing as half-welsh/half-english/half-scottish – and no passports with that on either – clever clogs! They could however be of of say Irish or Scottish descent. But how far do you want to go back

*whistling again* bobby's about to join Ivan in the hoosegow – and Bravo, and Gloria….

If you truly understood the TMP business model, you would know that TMP advertisers do not pay based on hits. There is no direct linkage.

But you do pay for exposure: the most times your TMP ad comes up the more expensive it is. Kind of a backdoor approach to: exposure = more hits = paying for hits….

I am still bemused by this idea that you should not allow someones avowed aims to affect your choice to do business with them.

For example, even though I like a bit of Glam Rock now and again, I will not be choosing to listen too or buying any Gary Glitter music again.

Someones's personally held beliefs may be for the privacy of their own heart. When they act upon them publically then they should do so in the knowledge that others may act adversely.

"BTW There's no such thing as half-welsh/half-english/half-scottish"
Perhaps you could point out who in this topic said that there was.

No confusion in my mind.

You did! You described yourself as …
And how do you know you are anyway – have you had a DNA test? You might be 25% Danish, or 90% Welsh or even part French, which would explain a few things ….

It's a very American thing to do this but my point is he would still be an American! Would it say Italian-American on his passport – no!

It's exactly this sort of stuff that stirs up racial tensions

Oh silly me just realised you want to be ….. "SPECIAL"!

Are you connected to Stafford Wargames in some way by chance?

Honest Gloria I wasn't, you said "What a load of tosh! You were born in England – that currently makes you British"

I was just pointing out that if you were not the Grand Detirminer of Other People's Identity you would not get to make that call. Should you resign you might find its more complex than that.

But let's not squabble there has been enough of that.

No I'm not – but I know Mr Hynd – so other than I live in Stafford – He knows I would never vote BNP – and he knows why – I don't like what they stand for – I've told him so – he has never tried to canvass my vote and he has never shown any problem whatsoever with any of that – his view is I am entitled to my opinions, etc.
My opinion is he is entitled to his even if they differ from mine.

Where I have a problem is when by openly and honestly stating he is a member of a legal political organisation runs the risk of having himself, his family, his home or even his business being verbally attacked and even worse physically attacked – for our overseas readers this risk is a matter of fact. The groups that are seriously anti-BNP are actually far worse than the BNP – they only want their views to be expressed if you disagree with them (BNP supporter or not) you run the risk of physical attack.

They are all as bad as each other in my opinion. I don't like extremists, bully boys, thugs and people making themselves out to be something they are not. What I do respect is honesty and integrity.

Well that certainly explains your 'so in some eyes' accusation and your statement "Congratulations your worse than a BNP member".

lotsa people fudge or omit locations on tmp.. my comment re origin was merely hoping to draw out a bit of info of what the other posters perspective was..

I located and id's myself so others could make as informed an opinion of what I had to say as poss.

didnt have a problem with BX's response at all… only reaction I had was wow HK wargamers? wonder what thats like?

Sticky wicket, all of this.

If one can prove that a given company is financially linked to a criminal organization, is that information valid to share with TMP in a thread?

If one can prove that a given company is financially linked to an extremist political or religious organization, is that information valid to share with TMP in a thread?

In both cases, let's do assume that the proof is present, accurate, and cannot be denied.

In the first case, it seems to me the duty is to first report the link to law enforcement, then contact the Editor and let him decide how to handle the case.

In the second case, it seems to me that the definition of what is "extreme" may in fact vary. But again, the proper method for handling this would be to contact the Editor, provide the relevant information, and let him choose how to handle it.

Note that in neither case do I think taking the information into the forum as the correct course of action.

As for the case currently under discussion, what has happened is that a private company has been linked to a political organization which appears to be extreme. However, the proof of said linkage really hasn't reached the state of "accurate" (though I'm inclined to trust it) and has already been misinterpreted by others here. (Some have assumed that all Vendel figs and purchases have been used to fund said group, when the owner is not the original sculptor and has only held the molds and rights for less than two years, and there's actually no proof that moneys from any purchases sold in this period have actually gone to said political group. The latter is an assumption, albeit a reasonable one.) This is a dangerous precedent to set.

While I think it would have been correct to alert the Editor to the link in private, I can understand the impulse to make the statement public, though I don't think this impulse was wise. However, I do think the continued discussion of the nature of the group goes outside the bounds of merely informing consumers that "X is linked to Y, here's proof of that link." The nature of Y can be determined easily enough with Google; no discussion of it is warranted on TMP, and does indeed violate the "no politics" rule. So it won't surprise me at all to see a mass jailing arise out of this.

(No, I'm not pressing the "!" button. But Bill will be on this like Zulus on a British outpost— and the Zulus are gonna win this one.)

@Bob
Well if you (or anyone else) are ever passing through HK you are always welcome to join us for a game, the club meets on the first and third Saturday of each month, no admission fee for guests, and we have beer!

WHAT IF the Moonies or the Church of Scientology bought Games Workshop…

I never made the assumption at all personally that any money was going to indefensible causes.

My choice would not to be trading with an open member of an organization like that. the man at issue was, without doubt.

having that info I can make my choice.
wythingummy for myself, has my thanks.
--
My issue in this thread is sensitive moderation.
--
People were obviously distressed and shocked by the news and upset; not so much politics was being discussed but digesting the revelation and shaking it down so to speak.
--
the issue would have run its course with minimal kerfuffle and gone to thread heaven, but for what I think was a misjudged intervention on Bill's part, ignoring what were measured reasonable pleas for a little space.
-
reread the thread. people were genuinely taken aback.
this wasnt the usual wargamers urinal contest for which Bill's governance is appropriate; it was genuinely shocked Poms.

shocked poms are not a pretty sight.. it happens eaither way whe they come down here for the Ashes;

win or lose they go home thinking: "now waitasec, are you sure?"

cheers BX, god bless.. crikey is that the time?
should we both be sleeping?

John you are a treasure!!!

Big oil bought games workshop, thats why all the plastic figures.. obvious!

now wheres my tinfoil?

oh and speaking of Scientology, which is restricted from civil service in Germany, or CPSU membership once prevented an FBI career perhaps, so membership with the organization in questionis incompatible with regulated home office jobs in the UK (Police, HM Prisons, etc)
just in case anyone had lingering doubts.

"WHAT IF the Moonies or the Church of Scientology bought Games Workshop…"

Dunno, what would that mean then?

Are you sure the scientologists don't already own GW ?

@WCL

if you start seeing space marines in sailor suits, then yes they've bought it ;)

Wig Cuddler, you just WANT to live in the DH, don't you?…