"Hittite Chariots" Topic

I took a look at Foundry, Newline Design and one other that I can't remember now and they all present the Hittite chariot crew as driver and spear holder. This all seemed a bit strange to me. If Hittite chariots charge Egyptian chariots they would be pin cushions long before they ever reached the Egyptians. If Drew's book "The Coming of the Greeks" is correct, the early Hittites hired Indo-Aryan mercenaries armed with light chariots and recurved bows. As time went on, the light chariot and recurved bow was introduced to the Hurrians, Assyrians, Babalonians, abd the Egyptians. Since the Hittites adopted the light chariots from these Indo-Aryan speakers, it would seem that they would also adopt the recurved bow. I took a look on the net and found a number of reliefs of Hittite chariots in which the bow was used.

1 picture

2 link

3 picture

4 picture

5 picture

6 picture With this one you can make out the lower part of the bow.

Some of these might be duplicates. But clearly the Hittites fought with recurved bows from their chariots much like others did. Their are some reliefs with the chariot warrior holding a spear however, the use of the spear maybe a secondary weapon. Below is a picture of an Egyptian chariot. On the sides of the chariot are two quivers. One for arrows and one for, presumably, for javelins.

7 picture

Now look again at relief number 2 and you will see the Hittite archer but attached to the chariot seems to be, by it's length, a spear rather than the shorter Egyptian javelin. This would seem to suggest that the primary weapon was the recurved bow but that the Hittites secondary weapon was the spear as opposed to the Egyptian javelin.

What do you think?

I think I have a lot of these:

picture

…and these:

picture

…and these:

picture

…which I use for Hurrian chariotry, and which can stand in as Hittites, as you describe.

Allen

I think that if such esteemed companies as Foundry and Newline do not portray the chariots with archers, than clearly the firsthand source material such as the contemporary reliefs must have it wrong.

Even Egyptian reliefs (Seti and the Qadeah ones) show Hittites with bows.

There was an article in Slingshot the best part of 10 years ago (around issue 204 IIRC) which covered a lot of the evidence for Hittites as chariot archers – just like all those who adopted the maryannu system.

No doubt spears/javelins were also used, however, the idea they did not use the bow is dead really.

I like Allen's solution. I use a variety of chariiots, including the square boxed ones made by the manufacturers Oldenbarnevelt indicated, but I put archers in the boxes.

BTW, the essay on chariot tactics by Nigel Stillman in the WAB Chariot Wars supplement is one of the more profound examples of horse hooey around. The fourth paragraph suggests the spear was adopted by Hittites et al as a countermeasure to enemy chariotry implying it is superior, rather than inferior, to archery in chariot warfare. This issue has been debated ad nauseum in Slingshot as well as other forums, but in my view the spear/javelin is a welcome addition for a close-in fight, but lack of a bow takes you out of the fight before you get to close quarters.

Go to Iron Wind and get their Hittite chariot; that has a bow equipped crewman. In the general's chariot, the general is carrying a bow!!! Also, the cabs are big enough to fit the crew without any problems.

Allen's solution works too

Ogdenlulimus, yours and Allen's suggestions are good.

Speaking of Nigel Stillman and his WAB Chariot wars, I have no idea why he sets up the Egyptian chariot order of battle with the infantry in the center and the chariots on the flanks. I've been told we don't have a good idea of the Egyptian battlefield tactical formations. However, at the battle of Megiddo, Thutmose and the chariots formed the center of the battle line. He sent troops to hold hills on either flank. Presumably these were infantry as chariots don't do well on hills and are not good defensive troops. The remainder of his infantry presumably formed up behind the chariots. I think that is the closest idea of Egyptian battlefield tactical formation. So, why did Stillman place the infantry in the center where presumably the Pharaoh would set up with his chariots?

Inguiring minds want to know.

The quality of line infantry is probably the heart of the issue. One may accept the premise that Greece invented reliable close order infantry tactics in the early iron age, that infantries in the LBA were not solid line fighters fighting in formation; thus, chariots were very hard to resist on open ground if your side lacked them or yours were driven off. One can accept the idea that archers massed together on foot could be a problem for chariots, but the problem remains of forcing them to stand when they are threatened by chariots (I expect they couldn't or wouldn't. Persia solved this problem later but that is a story for another thread). I believe Nigel Stillman is too taken with long standing gaming conventions to provide good historical analysis.

Interesting how 1-7 also have the axle in different locations.

The Armati rules have Hittite army chariots bow armed!!

I use Caesar miniatures for my Biblical games (or will be when I get started ), and unfortunately they don't have bow armed chariot warriors.
link

A little bit of converting with the Mittanian chariot warriors
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works a charm though!

Ryan

Concerning the Iron Wind figures, since they are Ral Partha figures are they 28s or true 25s?

Probably closer to true 25s, but they're very nice.

Hi

In the day, my first archeological goals were hittites, and subsequent gaming..they have bows, recurved bows.

My opinion in looking from the bow standpoint is that egyptian bows evolve from self bows to triangular bows and only become recurve when exposed to outsiders. I believe that the recurve is invented on the steppes.

Oh, and I scratch built my chariots!

Rocky

Show off.

An educational thread, thanks!

Any ideas on best picks in 15mm for Hittites? I know Essex and OG do 'em, but have not been able to find decent pix online. Opinions?

I've always been very happy with my Lancashire's Hittite chariots (mix and match from the other Bronze Age figs to give the chariotry figs needed) and even add runners if you accept the Egyptian references re: SUTI.

We have minimal first hand evidence for what the ANSE.KUR.RA.MES or SUS.KUSIG actually looked like.

The existence of the ranks of the GAL.SUS of the Right and the Left might imply their normal deployment on the flanks but we have little actual evidence.

There is no doubt that archery was a fundamental part of charioteer training, archery being one of the three core skills to be taught to charioteers by the UGULA.LI.SUS.

Cheers

Mike

Lots of new Hittite chariots listed here cuttingedgeminiatures.com
There are 2 and 3 crew types. Bow option will be possible by mixing crews giving lots of varients. Not available yet.

Scarab doing some too. A very exciting year to top up on those chariot forces.

Oldenbarnvelt, the links and pics you give for Hittite chariots are in fact from the Neo-Hittite period of the early iron age and hence a few hundred years after Kadesh, in the coventional chronology. This then shows the bow armed chariots, both 2 and three men chariots. The reason we have the 3 man spear armed chariots for Hittites at the time of Kadesh is purely on Egyptian sources of Ramesses II. However, the earlier images of Hittite Chariots of the time of Seti I show 2 man Hittite chariots with a bow. The fact that there are bow cases on the side of the chariot is evidence of the use of the bow at this time. In wargaming terms it is therefore upto the rules and the gamer as to whether the Hittite chariots have bow or spear. The Chariots I will be bringing out will have the option of either. There are no images of bow cases on Hittite chariots of the Empire period though of course the archers would have had quivers of their backs, similar to some earlier NKE chariot warriors and Syrian, Canaanite and Mitanni chariots.

Hi

In our Art of War rules, we allow both. My fault, my reading agrees with yours and follows on with the idea that Hittite armies might be better characterized as "Hittite led" as an empire, the army might have allied chariots from anyone in the area. But from a points standpoint, having both weapons costs more.

Rocky

At the risk of deviating this thread away from Hittites, I would go even further and question the idea that Mycenaean chariotry was spear armed – seems largely based on Homer. The one contemporary artistic impression I have seen which is always quoted as definitive evidence of a long thrusting spear, is the engraving of a chariot apparently running down an infantryman, with long pointy stick reaching forward.

Now, I have never been convinced that the straight line from charioteer to the horses' heads is a spear. To my mind it is as likely, if not more likely, to be the reins. The line seems to end at the horses' heads, not extend beyond. In which case the infantryman may be a soon-to-be-victim running away, or equally he could be interpreted as a friendly runner.

The only way I can see a spear ever being a valid primary weapon in chariot warfare is if you have some social driver – call it proto-chivalry if you like – which presumes a sporting set of rules recognised by both sides so that they joust in a manly manner, rather than just peppering the other chap's horses with arrows at a safe standoff distance.

If you are not convinced Mycenean Chariots were spear armed, go and have a look in Littauer & Crouwel : Bronze Age transport in the Aegean, which has loads of pictures of people fighting with spears from chariots.

The authors state that this can't be done, and then whenever a picture comes up showing it, they say "since we've shown this can't be done…", but the evidence speaks for itself.

Really? I realised I made a mistake above when I said only one image claimed for a spear is normally quoted – I was stupidly conflating the Mycenae shaft-gravestone (as described in my post above) with the Vaphaio seal. I accept that the latter certainly seems to show a spear or javelin.

All the other spear images I have seen are very very late in the period – LHIIIC – and look much more like the battlefield taxi for the heavy infantryman than a combat vehicle.

So, we have one probable spear image from the main Bronze Age period and area. By contrast, there are a host of chariot archery images, mainly from Cyprus/Rhodes – which yes can be argued as perhaps more influenced by Anatolia – but also some from the Aegean proper; but these get dismissed as "hunting" not "fighting".

In any case, I stress the issue is whether the spear is the PRIMARY weapon. No one doubts that charioteers often took along a spear – but was this for fighting when dismounted or immobilised, or was it your main armament?

At best, the evidence for spears to my mind barely balances the evidence for the bow. As I said before, if there was a Homeric code for fighting, then I accept the spear may well be plausible. If we are talking massed chariotry a la Megiddo/Kadesh, then I am much more sceptical.

Newline Designs now supply Hittite Chariots with a crew in helmets and also containing archers, please specify that you would like the chariot supplied with an archer not a spearman.