"Calling Sultan Sam - 'Abteilungen'?" Topic

Dear Sam,

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I'm probably being a little cheeky in asking for help after crossing swords with you on another thread about Lasalle vs Black Powder, but here goes!

Above is a link to my favourite forum (apart from TMP!)'Befreiungskreige', which covers wargaming aspects of the 1813-1814 Campaigns in Europe. Within a thread which initially discusses problems with basing material, I have somehow started a discussion about the terms best used to describe Prussian sub Bde ad-hoc formations of a few Bn's and squadrons, which in any other god fearing army would be known as Brigades. This discussion has even involved putting a question to that sagacious fount of all knowledge, George Nafzinger, but to no avail.

I mentioned that you used the term 'Abteilungen' in Lasalle, in your very cogent summary of Prussian organisations, on page 113.

The question is, where did you learn about this, or did you coin the phrase yourself?

Kind Regards,

Sparker

While we're waiting for the good professor. 'Abteilung' is a perfectly good German word which means a 'section or division of' or 'department'. Abteilungen is its plural.

It's frequently seen in regard to WWI and II, and later, German army organisations, so there's no reason to suppose it wouldn't have existed before then in a similar context.

I work for a German owned company, or should that be Gesellschaft..?

See, for example, Bruce, Dickey, and Kiley:

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…contrasting the French corps system with the column or Abteilung.

Much easier to find than a fellow named Nafzinger.

Allen

The Prussians "divided" their big brigades, into "divisions."

Sometimes, but not always. (Comme d'habitude… c'est la guerre.)

I chose to use the German word because to use the English word ("division") would have been confusing.

Incidentally, I'm surprised that George didn't recognize the term, since it appeared on several of his Prussian/Allied OBs for the 1813-14 period. If you look at his Allied Leipzig OB, for example:

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…you'll see it appear for the Austrians, too, instead of the word "Army Corps."

In some of his books, such as the Dresden and Leipzig ones, he uses instead the English word "Detachment." But I assume he's referring to the same thing. Note the way some Prussian brigades are subdivided into "detachments" on this Nafziger OB for the Katzbach:

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By the way – just to confuse things a bit more – the Prussians also used the word "Brigade" to mean a military administrative district. In that sense it was possible to belong to the same "brigade" but to be 50 miles apart, led by different officers. At the outset of the 1813 campaign, for instance, the "West Prussian Brigade" comprised a broad variety of units, marching toward the theatre of war along various routes, and ending up in several different field units. Any sub-grouping of such units in the field could be an "Abteilung."

Some people claim that the word only came into military usage in the late 19th or early 20th centuries… Which might be true. I'm not sure. It's possible that the writers of the great Prussian "Staff History" series used a contemporary (for them) word, which has since been replicated. However, I've certainly seen "Abteilung" in German-language primary sources dealing with civilian topics from the 18th century. (The subdivision of a banking firm, for instance, with offices in more than one city.)

Gents,

The consensus so far seems to be that using the term Abteilung to describe several Bns under a command figure with a specific and discrete order is perfectly acceptable, equating to what its French opponents would call a Bde.

I think therefore, in Black Powder terms, I shall have French Brigadiers being given the lowest level of orders whilst their 'One-Up' Commander is the Dvisional Commander, whilst their Prussian opposite numbers shall be 'Abteilung' Commanders, with their One-ups being the Brigade Commander.
And I think I shall allow the Abteilung to be an all-arms formation, also…

Thanks guys, I think I have sufficient informed commentary to be able to justify this to 'pooh-poohing'…

"Never Pooh-pooh a Pooh-Pooh – BAAAH! Knew a chap who pooh-poohed a pooh-pooh once. In the end we had to disband the entire Regiment – BAAAH!"
Major-General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett Melchett, Flanders, 1917

Kind Regards,

Sparker