" Welsh spear and bow for the WotR" Topic

Any Welsh included in WotR ranges tend to look a bit Dark Age-ish or early medieval at best. Wouldn't the majority of the Welsh looked and been equipped just like the English by the 1450's on?

Perhaps just using some earlier period figures (1415-1450) would be appropriate to make them look a bit more backwards?

Thanks for any input. Trying to pin down who to use as my Welsh for Bosworth 1485.

Yes, they'd have looked more or less the same.

For a start, they'd have access to a lot of French stuff looted from the HYW, and moeny from that campaign too.

Thanks Stu. I was thinking of using some later period HYW archers as Welsh and Shire Militia just to mix up my choices a bit.

I struggled with this. DBA/M/MM still rate the Welsh spearmen as not having shields (either Pike (I) or Aux(X)). I use some "Dark Age" type figs with more chainmail, but I make them standard Medieval Spearmen SP(F) with the DBM/MM Fast rating. For the archers, I use less armored archers and mount them 3 to a base rather than 4.

I use a home grown DBA/M/MM clone. For the Welsh archers, I rate them as Bow(S)as opposed to Heavy Bow(S). They aren't penalized for terrain like Heavy Bow, they don't QK knights… but they move faster.

No one really knows for sure. The above differentiates them and adds variety… without making any wild changes in the outcomes of the battles.

Joe Collins

The DBM list covers a thousand eyars or so and is severely broken.

For example, Welsh knights in English service (i.e. when
not rebelling) count as Kn(O).

When following Glyndwr, they leave their best stuff at home and count as Kn(F).

Ax(X) is fine for the armies of the Princes, and perhaps many of the infantry of the WotR were unarmoured spear.

But many would have been HYW veterans, or the sons of such and so have access to decent armour. FoG gives Glyndwr Welsh (1400ish so a bit earlier) poor quality billmen as well as lots of medium spears.

Don't think there would have been any difference between Welsh and English bow at all – many would have been unarmoured levies with some veterans wearing the good stuff.

It is worth noting that not all of Wales is mountains, and that Welshmen are as capable of dressing as befits the occasion as anyone else i.e. taking armour off if the terrain is steep.

We use a solution similar to Joe Collins.

I've developed my own rule set which uses DB element concepts but without all the mad scientist aspects of DBMM.

In general elements can get a Defensive Bounus (of +1 when you lose for armor/morale) and/or an Offensive Bounus of +1 when you win (for weapon/skill) [Conversly you can get Def/Off penaly of -1].

So for Welsh Archers if you rate them as good but unarmored, they would get an Offensive Bonus only (and perhaps a Defensive Penalty).

Similar methods are used for the loose ordered Spear (they get an Defensive Penalty but get the +2 Spear Support modifier for a second rank).

This allows us to use consistent concepts to represent troops without resort to "X" categories or speical rules.

TomT

As I understand it, few Welsh archers actually originated in the mountains at all, but rather from the lowlands and border territories – those held by English lords, who needed a regular army (raised from the locals) to oppose their rival land grabbing lords. All of Wales was considered fair game for the Nobles to attain and they were always squabbling over the territory with their private retainers. These small armies were amongst the few standing forces in England at the time so it is no surprise that these "Welsh" forces became the go-to core of English forces in the Hundred Years War and the WOTR.

Ironically, in the mountains the longbow was a hinderence not an asset, so comparatively few welsh longbowmen developed there.

Which is all a long way to say, yes, the "welsh longbows" should be armoured and "looking English". Argueably, as regular and semi-regular veterans of many a conflict – both home and abroad – the "welsh longbows" should be better armoured than the mostly levy "English" bows! Welsh Longbows could look more English than the English!

As to the Welsh "spearmen" who have retained the spear in this period in lieu of the bill, should they be shieldless I would assume?

I thought WotR meant War of the Ring when I read the thread title, I got quite intrigued

Heh. I am doing that all the time, whenever WOTR is discussed. ;)