"CAV: Change In Ownership" Topic

Looks like Jon from Talon Games is the new CAVBoss. Here's the announcement on Reaper's forums.

link

Best,
JBR

Changing to a new scale???

Anything that breathes life back in to the CAV universe is a good change in my mind.

Any idea if you will be doing new work for them?

Thanks for the update!

HostileContact

Looks like it.

1/225th or some such. 8mm.

Best,
JBR

Hostile Contact,

Unknown as far as work as this point. I haven't been contacted, but wouldn't turn it down.

Talon's already put out Rapid Prototyped minis in the past, so I'm sure they already have a working relationship with someone. Jon also owns a 3D printer.

Best,
JBR

They should upscale them to 15mm or go all the way down to 1/285. A lot of guys would love to game with their models in 15mm--they make some of the best looking tanks and fliers. I also love the look of their mechs. 6mm would be more niche but better than "8mm."

Why try to invent another new scale? Reaper did that and failed horribly. It doesn't make sense.

Read the announcement, what an arrogant idiot!

My guess is going 15mm would be just the ticket. Good luck.

Weird. 8mm is fairly close to BT scale, and far enough from the current 12mm CAV that they won't be compatible. Seems like Talon is hoping that the shift to 8mm will generate more BT crossover sales and get some of the diehard CAV fanbase to rebuy their armies in the new scale. Not sure I'd bet on either of those generating enough money to matter, especially if the CAV guys balk at having their old figs made obsolete.

"In the upcoming months we will be shrinking down many of the current CAV figures to a smaller scale of 1/225th (8mm) from is current 12mm"

Why do people insist on making their point by working with a scale that others are not?

1/225th is close to 7-8mm or Z scale (railroad), but seriously, why?

Sigh…oh well, yet another line I have no interest in due size/scale…shame.

How much sense does it take to work with established scales/sizes? Up to 15mm or down to 6mm makes much more sense to me…but I am not the guy taking a miniatures game, changing everything, modifying the size/scale from a weird scale to and even odder scale/size…IMO, when someone does not learn from watching others put their hands in a fire and do it themselves because they think it will be a different result for them…that sort of behavior is referred to as insanity.

Reality check Jon, there are just some things you do not do YouTube link YouTube link You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched scales when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders – The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" – but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go choose a weird scale when success of miniatures game business is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha…urrk…thump!

"1/225th or some such. 8mm"

Well that bodes well for using them for Epic 40k!

I hope you weren't talking to me, Mr. Werewolf.

Sorry no,I meant the Talon games announcement!

1/225th or some such. 8mm.

Just what the SF mini world needs – more minis that won't fit with any other lines!

Doug

Sorry no,I meant the Talon games announcement!

Whew! Thanks for the clarification. No harm done. :-)

OK, I've cooled down a bit (but still not enough!) from doing yard work in 92 degrees, so some thoughts.

As for Battletech… I've only played a couple games of BT, so I'm no expert on the game or the minis. I played mostly Mechwarrior clix with my son, though I tried converting people to play CAV 1.0 with MW models to no avail. Could someone answer why BT players would be willing to use unofficial BT figures from CAV in their games? Is that possible? This is assuming the figures are close enough, and then I assume we are talking more about mechs and armor than infantry. And then more about mechs really IIRC BT isn't much about combined arms like CAV is.

Do EpicA players proxy a lot of their figures as well? BTW I just don't see CAV's designs fitting well with the 40K aesthetic.

That being said, I have always loved the look of CAV. JBR's work has been fantastic. I already use some of their models in 6mm games. The Spider is a favorite of mine. I never bought the mechs due to my large MW collection.

We are lucky that JBR is doing work for Rebel Minis. If Rebel Mike did more CAV-looking armor and mechs, he could clean up in 15mm and then 6mm. IIRC from our conversation at Cold Wars, that is the plan?

I'd just hate to see the CAV line continue floundering.

I already own a massive pile of CAV minis and won't be rebuying them for a new game. They will continue to be a race of giants for 6mm games and diminutive technologically advanced race in 15mm games. :P

I agree with Werewolf- this guy is pretty arrogant, and pretty naive.
You can't justify going to a largely unique scale by say that "so-called" 6mm is 8mm anyway. Who cares if it is not- they down-scaled the tanks and aircraft to begin with. So, their grasp of a consistent scale continues to elude them- N-Scale, 12mm, 8mm… heck may as well put stats on the Dana Murphy boutique mini and use her too! LOL

I hope it works out for 'em…

Just dawned on me, Talon is the company that brought us Cry HAVIC way back when. Weren't those figures another odd scale, about 30 or 32mm? I seem to recall them being much too big to work with 40K or Void, although the bigger powered armor guys and robots were scale-free enough to slop over into 28mm. Might be wrong, though, it's been a long time.

Any idea of how much the mechs would cost if they were 15mm scale? Going 8mm is probably a smart choice as it crosses with both BT and 6mm scale, so see a huge amount of miniatures to use now. They'll fit fine, the CAV walkers are supposed to be Battlemech huge any ways right?

This guy's attitude in regards to 6mm is enough to turn me off of the new minis. I'm all for decreasing the scale, but why not allow me to use my Micro Armor with your minis? I would love 6mm CAV stuff, especially if JBR did some of them.

In fact, I'd be willing to purchase very large quantities if they would fit with my GHQ and PFC stuff.

Well some 8-10mm can easily fit in with Epic scale… Dropships, some AFVs, etc. would be BIG … So that isn't a problem with me. I find both GHQ and GZG AFVs are too small for my Epic Armies … However GZG's Infantry is fine … IMO …

Well, the original non-True Scale aircraft and some tanks did fit with the GZG line; I run the 2-per pack Chieftains as heavys in my NAC force, the Lynxes are VTIOL armed transoprt for my NSL, and my NAC Dropwing uses Merlins ( They look like they can carry a full MBT ), so I will look upon this idea with favour for the moment.

oh well I have all the CAV minis I will ever need. so changing to some off the wall scale that will not sell, will not effect me at all. Its been a dead game for a long time. because they went from a fun set of easy to play rules to something that had to many add ons and nit picky rules, that was just not fun.

I think they'll end up fitting great with most stuff that is currently sold as "6mm" sci-fi. Some 6mm fans found him "arrogant," but he's right that a lot of 6mm offerings are closer to 8mm.

I don't think he's introducing a new scale at all. Same as how 15mm has scalecrept it's way up to 18mm. The manufacturers who call their stuff 18mm didn't "invent a new scale".

This also means that the non-True Scale vehicles won't need resizes/redoing. They're already a large 6mm/8mm.

I see only good news here.

As far as the new rules goes:

"-- Just to be more specific. If you purchased the CAV2 PDF you will get the C:SO PDF for free. The printed book will still have to be purchased."

Awesome. Free PDF for me.

Nathaniel, concur about the scale creep in 6mm – The old Ainsty "6mm" items, or their halftracks anyway, were over 70mm long, which I considered more likely to be 15mm models.

Anyway, the early aircraft and some of the CAVS would certainly work will 6mm nicely, it was only the infantry that was into the 10mm scale seriously.

Exactly. Some of the CAV are really big for 6mm walkers, the infantry are big, and the true scale vehicles are obviously very, very big. But everything else already was large 6mm.

So the way I see it having the CAVs shrunk a bit and having even more 6mm (sorry, I mean 8mm) infantry to choose from only seems like a win-win situation for anyone who's already into 6mm.

Also, it looks like the rescale down to 1/225 for the CAV will make them cheaper per walker.

The only people that should be put out by this are those who are already dedicatedly into 12mm/N-Scale Sci-fi. And outside of Heavy Gear players and CAV players who only used "True Scale" stuff, that's not the largest group of players around.

I've never played CAV or had any interest in gaming in smaller scales but the mechs would be great in 15mm scale because they would be easier to convert into usable 28mm 'dreadnoughts' and the like…

…8mm? Madness.

I could understand 6, 10, 12 or 15mm but 8mm?

Most 6mm these days is closer to 8mm. Heck, some 6mm is pushing 10mm for the infantry (SGJ's Ogre infantry, for example).

He shouldn't have called it 8mm. He just should have said that the CAVs will be reduced in size to match the vehicles in the line. The stuff is going to work fine with existing sci-fi 6mm. Calling it 8mm is just creating misconceptions.

I humbly disagree Nathaniel.
By down-scaling, you're making yourself more work. Adjusting model detail for prototyping machines is easier when you up-scale. Down-scaling requires rescultping on your CAD models to remove detail that won't come out at the smaller scales. It also alienates yourself from your present customer base- anyone remember DP9s switch to 1/144th scale and gnashing of teeth that ensued?
Rather, if you up-scale the vehicles to match the CAVs it would require less work, and makes your line more appealing to a broader majority of mecha-gamers (Clicky-Tech (My opinion is MORE people play Click-Tech than CBT) and Heavy Gear for instance). Plus, N-Scale works with 15mm at tabletop distance, so you have that broad customer base.

Quite frankly, why even bother changing anything? Rather, they should focus more on regulating the release schedule and stop changing the game rules (CAV 1st edition was fine, dammit. What is Strike Operations anyway- CAV 3rd edition? o.0).
And, why shun Mil-Net? Questor can tell you as well as I how important Mil-Net was to the CAV community, doing what Reaper should have been doing for that game. By the wording of this announcement, it seems to me they're turning their back on Mil-Net. That is a shame.

Let's face it- Ultimately, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, whatever- this is all discussion for a largely vaporware product. CAV's been dead for a while now. And, it'll continue to be so until we start seeing some quantifiably regular releases from Reaper for it.

As I said, the size of most the CAV models will work fine with 6,8 or 10mm. Combat Walkers/Mechs, Dropships, even most AFVs, again, would work IMO …

With all the positive sales in 15mm these days, IMO that is the scale he should be going after. Do the models in resin/metal mix and he would have a winner. Do them in 8mm scale and he probably will not get as many customers.

"By the wording of this announcement, it seems to me they're turning their back on Mil-Net. That is a shame"

""What about Mil-Net? I know many people have strong feelings about the work they have done for the game but at this point they are not a part of the game going forward. In the future who knows what may happen and we will evaluate their input for possible inclusion to the game at a later time""

I would say that they are not turning their back on Mil-Net but rather are ignoring the opinions, efforts, and support of Mil-Net…well yes they are turning their backs and showing a bare backside in concert with a raised middle finger or two.

Rather sad actually.

Taking a failed game, say what you like it failed, and failing to consider the reasons for the failure…good models with clean designs…but the scale/size was odd…so instead of learning from earlier mistakes Jon has decided to go with another odd size/scale…add a pinch of salt and pepper and you will have a big steaming pot of epic fail stew.

IMO, which I know has about as much value as an old candy wrapper on the bottom of your shoe, the appropriate scale would be 1/285th which gains in being Micro Armor, Battle Tech, and other related 1/285th-1/300th-and 6mm which seem to be interchangeable

OR

15mm which is quickly becoming a marketable venture direction…meaning that their is enough recent movement to show investors the potential for the 15mm market…it has shown significant growth and support in the last two years or so.

To do otherwise is pure folly, vanity, or other act of selfish ignorance…but again that is just my less than valuable opinion.

IMHO, anyone who thinks Battletech is still 1/285 scale, well I have this bridge…

Damon.

Agreed…original direction for battle tech miniatures :)

I thought the same thing about Mil-net. But it bears taking a look at the Reaper Forums. The Mil-net guys were given the option of completely taking over CAV's rule development. They declined citing other commitments taking up too much of their time to truly take the reigns of the game. If they don't feel hard done by in any way shape or form, who are we to feel it on their behalf?

It also alienates yourself from your present customer base- anyone remember DP9s switch to 1/144th scale and gnashing of teeth that ensued?

CAV's been dead for a while now

A dead game has an appreciable number of customers to worry about alienating? DP9 actually had Heavy Gear players in decent number when they made the scale switch.

As for 15mm sci-fi, I think it's big here on TMP but pretty small overall. There's lots of companies and offerings because it's easy to offer 15mm stuff on a low-capital investment/garage company basis. You can outsource sculpting and casting and sell an impressive line through a web site and one guy running the operation. Of all the miniatures sold worldwide, how big is 15mm sci-fi? 15mm sci-fi is no guarantee of sales/success outside of small operations that don't have many employees and whatnot.

It's amazing what people read into an announcement. It's been read into it that they're making some new strange scale, when it says right in it that the target size is the same as the crept-up-6mm. It's been read that mil-net got the shaft when those guy's have said it's all good. Also people have seemed to missed that reducing the scale was also about reducing the per-unit cost and price of the actual CAVs.

Let's be honest here: reaper is TERRIBLE at supporting game rules. Just awful. CAV is about a dead a game as it gets. And now we have a possible future source of stuff that will work fine with many existing 6mm sci-fi collections. Maybe this Jon fellow will do better than Reaper did. He seems atleast as passionate about CAV as the mil-net guys were/are.

Maybe I'll actually play the game and buy some CAVs. So far, it's been all vehicles for me to use with other rules.

Greetings all! Not going to hit all the high points made here but just touch on a few…as can be seen by the overall tone of the thread Im damned no matter which way I go so I made choices base on my experiences and with other gamers Ive visited with…

About the only true scale out there is micro armor and as a whole most mini lines are closer to 8mm…so thats what I went with. The Rogue Legion line of figures were already at that and a lot of CAVs are close enough to stay where they were. I could have called it heroic 6mm but left it where its at. Sorry if you find that arrogant etc but cost is a factor here. We have over 80 models already in the pipe and need to work with what we have.

As far as 15mm same problem otherway. 80 figs would have to be upsized and the cost in a metal figure for a lot of these would be a major pain. We already have $25 USD figs in 12mm so didnt go that way.

As far as MilNet if they want to stay involved all they have to do is call. Chrome pointed out they had their chance and couldnt pull the trigger.

Anyway Im here to answer any questions you may have..im not going to get into any forum bashing with the faceless masses but will do my best to listen to your questions and concerns!

Jon

Easiest way out of this scale predicament; Change the fluff, not the figs, and not relegate existing inventory and collections to the dustbin, nor take on the time and expense of retooling an entire product line.

Allow me to make my case.

N scale CAVs in the 'Reaperverse' (the term for 1.0 and 2.0 gaming) were 30 feet tall or so, and N Scale on the tabletop.

What might save Jon and hundreds of people and stores currently holding N Scale figs is to say that in the 'Talonverse' (C:SO, the pending version) the figures remain the same, but CAVs are larger in the fluff. Say about 45 to 50 feet tall. No skin off anybody's nose, nobody's collection in the trash, nobody playing N-Scale Dictators against 8mm Dictators (which would look silly…there's a 40% difference in scale between 1/160th and 1/225).

This will keep Jon from having to print 80 smaller reproductions of existing, paid-for models. The only thing that really gets lost in the mix is infantry, and they were just a couple SKUs.

The N-Scale vehicle re-dos would be 'Gallery Editions', while the smaller, two-to-a-pack vehicles would be the gameplay, in-scale versions.

This way, Jon gets to take CAV to a new scale, everyone's existing collections are intact, and no new molding or prototypes have to be made to shrink 80 models down to size. Just retcon them to have always been this big. Future models can be brought out at smaller sizes, to reflect advancements in technology and miniaturization.

Take it for what it's worth. It's an easy solution. Fluff is cheap (i.e. Templars changing planets…what's a few extra feet of CAV fluff height?) Figs are a bundle.

Best,
JBR

TalonJon…I think you will find the majority of the TMPers are not going to assault you here on the forum…other than what has been issued thus far.

A professional response to any situation is always welcome and appreciated.

So just by showing up and opening the floor is a good step forward and will hopefully result in some good communication from the faceless masses.

I suspect it is mostly in the wording and choice of terms that has driven the comments thus far.

But in the end it is your baby…you are fronting the money, resources, and effort to raise this baby.

**************

Your TMP comments regarding scale and creep has validity. After all the mechs are made up and as such can be whatever size you want…but most of us on the outside knew two things about CAV from before…great designs/miniatures and weird scale.

So, from one of the faceless masses, if you keep the designs then yay! That is good, as these were welcome designs. If you are swapping one weird scale/size for another, then not as good.

If the scale/size is actually keeping up with industry standard 6mm…then say that. IMO when you sugar coat, it usually tastes like poisoned honey.

After the fact and from the aether…but perhaps a "compatible with current 1/285th scale miniature lines" would have been less controversial? As, and maybe my math is off, but straight scale numbers…your proposed 1/225th is actually closer to 7mm rather than 8mm which is much closer to 1/200th…your suggestion of heroic 6mm would raise eyebrows but would be far more acceptable, again IMO which has little value, than 8mm because you have seen the market 6mm creep up in size?

Again it is your business and your choice to make…and as you have already committed to the size change, it is what it is…just a thought to reconsider the advertised "scale"…as it is just make believe and not real world scale models, then perhaps a more customer friendly title that would entice players into using your miniatures with their existing lines, terrain, etc.?

I for one appreciate your coming here to TMP and making time to respond :)

I am looking forward to seeing how this project develops.

*****************

JBR…great idea and good compromise.

As was voiced on the Reaper forums at this announcement- I'm cautiously optimistic.
I vested very heavily into CAV when it first came out back in '02 or so. I'm willing to bet cold hard cash that I have more Dictators than anyone, and I mean anyone. I was one of the very first Black Lightning members. I have an armored battalion of Despots & Malefactors with powered infantry and Kharl air support assets. Suffice it to say, I have an interest in this announcement as this game is very close and dear to my heart.

And when I'm staring at all these Despots, I don't think to myself how much I'd like for them to be smaller, or the associated CAVs to be smaller for them. Rather, I find myself wanting them to be larger, so I can send them up against Khurasan's Felids, Rebel Minis' Titan HAMRs or Critical Mass' Protolenes.
This is why I'm so excited about the Khurasan Siler MBTs. These are what I'd hoped the Despots would have been.

*shrugs* I guess that's beating a dead horse at this point. So, I'll leave it at that.

I do wish Talon and C:SO all the best. CAV does deserve a second chance. And who knows… maybe, I'd be able to use some of the new-scale CAVs as 15mm dreadnought-style combat robots.

Edit: I second 28mmMan's sentiments. Thank You, Jon for voicing your side of this. My comments, while crass, was spoken out of my interest for the game. I appreciate your taking that in professional stride.

In reference to JBR suggestion…a lot of that will happen. As there is an actual construction system in place, a lot of minis wont change figs but the fluff will reflect that they are a heavier class than many people consider them at this point.

Several models, mostly vehicles and aircraft started out as smaller figs and got replaced with larger versions so a lot of people already have those models. We are just going back to those.

And Im all for coming up with a name we can all agree on for 6mm with scale creep. I chose to say 8mm as that is what they are. Ive fought this battle over and over through the years when we started with heroic scale at reaper. Its truly damned one way or the other so I went with the truth.

As to the scale numbers 8mm=6'(72 in) so 1mm=9". 25mm in an inch so 25 x 9= 225.

6mm=72" so 1mm=12". 25 x 12= 300
7mm=72" so 1mm=10.29". 25 x 10.29= 257

If the figs you play with fit well with the current size of BT minis then the new CAV stuff will as well. We did the Rogue Legion stuff at this scale and have had great success with them.

TalonJon, you'll find TMP to be a fairly reasonable place. with a few exceptions. Napoleonics arguments and the scale of giant stompy robots games. People still bring up Heavy Gear switching from RAFM to smaller in house models. And that was how long ago?

Also remember that scale has been used to refer to figure height in total and the height to eyes in average sized humans.

Perhaps the best way to go is to get some pictures next to a mm ruler and show that. "Heroic 6mm" is kind of funny as well.

I think anyone getting themselves into a huff over the scale didn't understand that you intended the scale to be compatible with current 6mm sci-fi offerings. People saw 8mm and reacted without understanding what you meant about 6mm + scale creep.

I got into Reaper's Warlord when it first came out. Me and a friend of mine were organizing a club operating out of a local store that sold Reaper's stuff. Reaper told us that we'd be getting army books/expansions for our forces. While we played with the lists in the basic rulebook, there was lots of talk about not wanting to make major purposes incase things were going to be changed in the army book. And then the army books didn't come out in the timeline originally talked about. Our local gaming of Warlord stalled out and we took up Warmachine. It would have been better if Reaper didn't say boo about providing faction specific source books with new army lists and whatnot. They promised and then didn't deliver.

Uh-oh… This means I need to buy the 'True-scale' Aircraft. I need 15mm dropships, and the Cav fliers are great for that.

I am still a little confused on the scale change (regardless if it's really 6mm or 8mm), why isn't keeping at CAV at 10mm-ish an option?

-Will

CAV now is 12mm and we have models coming out that topped $25. USD We have to pare down that cost…going to "Heroic 6mm" ;-) is the direction needed IMO.

It's a good plan to lower the costs, but that was DP9's original intent as well. And now look at the price of those miniatures. Makes me wonder what they'd cost if they were still at the old scale today.

But then I am of the crowd that says smaller miniatures means bigger armies on the table.

Doesnt this game use playing cards in some fashion?

Yes it uses cards for initiative and for special actions that require a deployment of some type.

I'm going to go ahead and assume that Jon from Talon isn't a complete idiot. Some seemed to have forgot that he's been with Reaper for 20 years. I have to assume that some knowledge of the industry has soaked in by this time ;)

That said, I'm also "cautiously optimistic". I liked CAV. I'm a sucker for mecha games in a general and a game that doesn't take too long to play is always a plus (Though too simple might be an issue as well.) In fact while I found CAV first ed to be a little plain with some cool mechanics (I really liked defensive fire), 2nd Ed seemed to improve the situation some. I'll be interested to see what happens with new rules and I hope that Jon and company shoot for a balance of fun and interesting rules, while keeping the game playable in a reasonable amount of time. HINT: It's pretty close to that now.

On scale change: I get it, the models currently are expensive and huge. It makes sense to reduce them in size and I never really understood the move to an even larger scale later in the game. I earnestly hope that the miniatures are built to a scale that is "compatible" with other games and miniature lines. It sounds like that is the case but I'd like to say that I believe some miniature companies moves towards proprietary scales have often left them dead in the water. It's important for all minis manufacturers to embrace a popular scale to scoop up those gamers who might not be interested in their rules, but their miniatures. Again, Jon's been with Reaper for a long time and as a popular alternative for fantasy figs I'm sure he understands this.
Sure it sucks my older models may be too large, but frankly, they're too large to begin with lol, and I'd happily move to collecting smaller minis that are more portable, cheaper and easier to model and transport, if the rules are good and there's some support ongoing for the game. The sporadic nature of releases in models and rules for the game in the past has been a turn off for a lot of people, myself included.

CAV's been a good game in it's way. I'd hope to see more emphasis on the CAV themselves. Combined arms is ok, but for us mech-o-files, everything non mech is just target practice, so it would be nice to see a game where CAV dominate the battlefield but allow mixed armies to be competitive and so on. Effectively, I'd like to see my all CAV army face off against a combined army in a fun game.

Good luck Jon, I'm in training with the Army all summer but hope when I come out the other end a shiny new CAV game might be ready to play!

I thought the same thing about Mil-net. But it bears taking a look at the Reaper Forums. The Mil-net guys were given the option of completely taking over CAV's rule development. They declined citing other commitments taking up too much of their time to truly take the reigns of the game. If they don't feel hard done by in any way shape or form, who are we to feel it on their behalf?

A small clarification – our decision to not continue working on CAV had very little to do with "other commitments". We took off our fanboy hats and after looking very closely at the business side of things decided that it would be nearly impossible for CAV to be profitable for us under the conditions we were offered. That was about a year ago and we haven't official supported CAV since then.

Jon has a few things going for him that make producing miniatures easier, so maybe things will work better for him. I don't agree with some of the decisions that he is making, but it is his game and his prerogative. All I can do as a fan is vote with my wallet when the time comes.