"Manufacturers Beware" Topic

In business, it is well understood that when one person takes the time to complain, it is a signal that many others feel the same way. And, yes, I have a complaint. But more than that, I've decided to stop using the services of a particular hobby manufacturer – unnamed because their product is fine and it is not my intent to harm good people.

However, the practice, that seems to be spreading, of Requiring customers to have an 'account' and a password to access that said account is a barrier to good customer relations. In my situation, I visited a manufacturer to place an order but one I hadn't used for a few years. Try as I might, and I tried a lot of ways, I could not get the system to recognize me – even using old e-mail addresses. This prevented me from being able to use the 'forgot your password' feature that is usually included. In the end, I was sufficiently put off to not only abandon this manufacturer but to send off an e-mail informing them I was a 'former' customer. This was not lightly done because I like this range of figures – but it also has lots of competition out there.

Then, trying to place another order with another manufacturer, I encountered additional difficulties (By the way, to those of you who live your sad lives to pounce on this as evidence of my ineptitude, chew it up and swallow it, etc. No one except other pathetic souls care about your opinions. I'm quite computer literate, thank you very much.). While I'm confident of overcoming the problems with the second manufacturer, I was pretty ticked off that I have to go through this rigamarole to simply place an order.

There is no good reason I need to have an 'account' as a customer, especially as an occasional one. Nor a password either. All I need provide is a place for the products to be shipped to and a reliable means by which you, the manufacturer can get paid. Plain and simple.

So, in future, when I have a choice as to which manufacturer I place an order with, the one that doesn't force me to jump through unneeded hoops to buy their products will win my trade.

Also, regarding a reliable means of payment, while of course I want secure servers, I only need a credit card to make a purchase. Why the bleeping hell do I need to bother with PayPal. Personally, I hate PayPal, they rip their customers off, in my opinion. I am well informed of how exchange rates work and the evidence suggests to me they skim a profit off of their cross currency transactions. If so, that is just plain wrong. But that aside, I still don't like them. Don't make me dance with PayPal if I have a credit card.

Thank you for your time and I hope you take this as a serious complaint and not as a rant. My dollars go where I want them to go. I hope you want a share of them.

The G.

"No one except other pathetic souls care about your opinions"

The same holds true here too, now stop complaining

Well the way around the sign into cart thing is to do the transaction via e-mail, however that makes processing the credit cards difficult.

Most of us small companies use paypal simply because its the easier alternative to the old standard payments of checks/MO.

Regular credit card processing requires a standard cart (which means you need to log in) and it requires an account that bills you monthly for there service even if you did not use it for 30 days. There is also account maintenance fees, set up fees, statement fees, and a huge chunk equal to what paypal takes out of each transaction is most cases anyway.

For me to sign up for regular CC processing would cost in the range of $75 USD with another $50 USD a month to maintain the account. Paypal is free until you use it and then its a flat rate plus percentage.

In most cases I'd need to do several thousand transactions a month to make it worth the time and effort of switching from paypal to someone else at a 1-2% cheaper percentage for processing.

I'm with you. Can the "account" nonsense. I don't mind re-entering my address if I have to (heck, Safari fills in the appropriate fields automatically). And I don't mind filling in my credit card info every once in a while. It's one thing to have an "account" with a utility company so I can access past bills, etc.. But with someone who's merely selling me the occasional toy… why the heck would I need that?

Amen, brother G. Amen.

Hold on, I kind of get what you are saying, but in the long run isn't setting up a new account for your purchase exactly the same (on the vast majority of sites) as making a purchase without an account? I mean you have to enter all the same info when setting up an account as you would to order something without an account: name, address, email, etc… The only difference is that you need to add a password, and confirm it. The account itself is just a time saver, should you happen to remember your password on your next visit. I must have half a dozen accounts to Old Glory website, I just can't ever seem to remember that password.

The problem, if there truly is one, is in the software package.

As for Paypal, that is just something you can tolerate or not. While I agree with you 100% that they exchange rates are often ridiculous they are also clearly the front runner among all companies currently providing this service to merchants. Stores w/o Paypal receive emails requesting it be added and if they fail to do so it is proven that they will loose sails. For many small businesses it is just not an option for them to add additional credit card services to their websites. So they pick one, and frankly for good or ill Paypal is the most widely used and the obvious choice (especially if you want to tap the US market).

On the flip side, Paypal is the only feasible way we can take credit card payments at the moment. We're just too small. I share some of your concerns about Paypal, but if I didn't take it, I'd only be able to accept checks and money orders, which I'm still happy to take.

Personally, I'm not a fan of credit cards, they increase the cost of goods and services on purchasers 5 to 10%. I always pay cash when possible.

Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com

"Well the way around the sign into cart thing is to do the transaction via e-mail, however that makes processing the credit cards difficult."

Not to mention that this violates every credit card issuers rules for security and you could have your account canceled and possibly fined for doing this.
Both credit card issuers and Paypal charge hefty fees for transactions. For credit cards a decent amount of sales need to be made to make it worthwhile. Most companies take Paypal to avoid having to pay these recurring fees for processing even if no transactions are made.

I understand the frustration, but the principle of the account is to provide a layer of protection to your private data, especially credit card data. It really boils down to the way these systems are applied – so I would suggest that while this particular system wasn't meeting your expectations, the underlying principle holds true.

If they want you to register to access the site, catalogue or ordering page then these guys will quickly go out of business. I've found the account process at places like the Warstore and Maelstrom Games to be very good examples of account systems for online retailers.

For many small business PayPal is the only viable route to process credit cards.

Of course PayPal make money on the deal, there is no such thing as a free lunch and one way or another you get hosed whatever method you pay by.

Creating an account and using PayPal to get some wargame stuff I want, I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist over it, there are more important issues in life like how many buttons are there on Perry Hussar.

On the flip side, Paypal is the only feasible way we can take credit card payments at the moment. We're just too small.

same here

I agree with the original posters comments ( apart from the 'pathetic losers' comment, not necessary ) .

I don't like the 'create account' websites having actually used some recently. I also think it represents an additional security risk.

If you're submitting card info via https: then doing it once is a small risk.
Having an account where the info is stored, I think represents a greater risk.

Needless to say, I have the same reservations about my amazon account!

As for card processing, Paypal really is the only way to go.

Paypal is an excellent way around the issue of Merchant Banking facilities, which are expensive, stringent can be difficult to get for Online business's. However I do understand your concern.

As for accounts, I dislike that as well, especially as in the UK you then need to register with the Data Protection people as well.

But don't get me started on websites that require you to have logged in before you can see prices or work out postage etc…

<<Personally, I hate PayPal, they rip their customers off, in my opinion. I am well informed of how exchange rates work and the evidence suggests to me they skim a profit off of their cross currency transactions.>>

And you don't think that your bank/credit card provider does exactly the same thing?

The foibles and perils of e-commerce and ordering are a fact of life. Living as I do in the outer spiral arm of the galaxy (i.e., Australia) where the vast majority of suppliers and manufacturers catering for our hobby have little or no presence, I'm willing to put up with the aggravation – it sure beats the alternatives (try using a cheque to pay for goods within the good ole US of A from outside said jurisdiction).

"By the way, to those of you who live your sad lives to pounce on this as evidence of my ineptitude, chew it up and swallow it, etc. No one except other pathetic souls care about your opinions. I'm quite computer literate, thank you very much."

A little paranoid, aren't we? Responding with such venom to an entirely imaginary attack? Makes you appear quite deranged, and it seriously undermines any credibility your arguments might have had. You come across less like a slightly annoyed fellow with a legitimate point to make and more like a ranting nutcase now.

Personally I will not buy anything if I can NOT pay with Paypall.

I can see no reason to set up an account just to view a sight,but as to buying then its a case of setting up the account as in the Uk the Money Laundering laws come into play.
Any site not using an account system is illegal.

Any site not using an account system is illegal.

how so? can you point me in the direction of the legislation please?

^^^^^^ I'd like to know as well ^^^^^^^^
Always thought it concerned a single transaction of a large amount (equivalent to 10000 euros iirc) for a single transaction payed by cash or personnel cheque. Been a few years since I've been in a position to need to know it, so has it changed????

I had an frustrating experience with an account a while back. I wanted to make a purchase for my job, while at work. I tried to create a new account, but the system would not let me. The delviery address was my place of work, the billing address was my home. It would automatically change both to the same. I needed next day shipping to my work, and it wouldn't accept the credit card if my billing address was not correct. Shipping to my home was not an option as I had to have the stuff at work the next morning.

So, I tried to use my account, but could not remember the password, used the e-mail reminder, and then found that I could not get to the e-mail account from work. Both IT guys were out, so I was toast.

The seller didn't accept Paypal, which I can access and could have used from work.

The seller lost about $1100, a decent sale for most hobby companies.

from HM revenue and Customs

Record keeping requirements
It's very important that you keep a record of all customer due diligence measures that you carry out, including customer identification documents that you've obtained. By keeping comprehensive records you'll be able to show that your business has complied with the Money Laundering Regulations. This is crucial to protect your business if there's an investigation into one of your customers.

The types of record you keep may include:

daily records of transactions
receipts
cheques
paying-in books
customer correspondence
You can keep your records in any of the following formats:

originals
photocopies
microfiche
scanned
computerised or electronic
You must keep your records for five years beginning on either:

the date a business relationship ends
the date a transaction is completed

**********************

You also have to confirm that your customer is who they say they are, so manufacturers should be checking date and place of birth, addresses etc, as well as keeping this info for 5 years

Yeah, the pathetic thing sure didn't help make your case or win you any friends.

although it probably doesn't apply at all to hobby stores

There is no good reason I need to have an 'account' as a customer, especially as an occasional one. Nor a password either.

Umm, in many cases it is a limitation of the more common forms of software. I can't turn off the requirement for an account (although I did turn off the options requiring you to enter your date of birth, shoe size and grandmother's maiden name!)

All I need provide is a place for the products to be shipped to and a reliable means by which you, the manufacturer can get paid. Plain and simple.

From a manufacturer's position, online shopping cart provides the place, linking to the Paypal cart system provides a reliable and simple means to getting paid. It is actually quite plain and simple, although we will take orders at the door, or by phone, or fax, or email…

Why the bleeping hell do I need to bother with PayPal

Are you aware that you don't need to have a Paypal account at all. There is an option to pay directly from your credit card.

No one except other pathetic souls care about your opinions.

John and Plynkes are correct. That was the first thing I thought as well. I love when people make comments like the above quote. It's just dripping with irony and hypocrisy!

I am well informed of how exchange rates work and the evidence suggests to me they skim a profit off of their cross currency transactions.

Of course they do! So does every bank doing exchange rates. No consumer gets the XE rate. My experience is that paypal adds on $.05 USD onto the rate. Not exactly a killer fee IMO.

BTW we've had this discussion many times before. I don't mind the account, especially if we can create wishlists, get notices of restocks of out of stock items, save our cart until ready to actually pay, and keep a purchase history. coolstuffinc.com and newegg.com are good at this.

I don't like setting up an account to see shipping costs. That turns me away right away.

I predict that tomorrow someone will start a rant about the lack of photos on manufacturers websites. It's that time again. :-)

Isn't paypal really rough on vendors as well, freezing their accounts etc for little provocation, and then making them wait months to access the cash.

I have used Paypal for years with no issues at all.

Being from the bottom of the world (New Zealand) and having to get all my figures form the UK or USA I agree about having to register to find out what the cost of figures are or how much postage will be. I got around this by sending an email requesting the information. Those who reply get my business those who push me into their "Automated system for my benefit" do not. What I want to see as a web customer is what you have to offer including an excellent photo of the product, not some listing with a "will be displayed later picture", the cost of the figures and the postage. a bonus is if they remove the VAT for overseas customer, which most don't. IF I'm brousing I don't want to have to put stuff in a shopping cart and then check out to see postage. The upshot is that I have a few figures makers I spend my money with as they give me, the customer, the service I want, the way I want it – after all its my money they are after so I get to choose who I spend it with

Geoff from QRF your site does exactly what I was talking about, I have to add the item I want to a shopping cart and check out to find out what the postage is to New Zealand. that is a pain. I a positive note – you do reply to emails request and very quickly and you do have photos of most of you stuff except the naval gun crews I am after. What I am getting at is the design of commercial websites – its not as easy as people think it is to get a good one, most if not all wargaming companies have poor sites, stuff is hard to find with to may clicks to locate a product and then the request/requirments to provide personal information to find out how much stuff will cost to get it to you. But don't fell bad Amazon do the same thing.

I have to add the item I want to a shopping cart and check out to find out what the postage is

It is a limitation of the software (although I gather there is a 'no need to register an account' option I may look at.

"I have to add the item I want to a shopping cart and check out to find out what the postage is"

As GeoffQRF said, most of the time this is built into the software with little ability to modify.

Privateer and I are in the same place, but I hate to say, not quite on the same page.

I deal with a number of companies overseas ( have to – nobody here wants to deal with my interests ) and I have dealt with companies that ask me to open an account. So far, I have had no problems – indeed, I even have had less than no problems, as one company has kept me up to date with stock issues and dispatch details through the account, and I'm grateful for that. Another company did have some major problems with my account, but they bent over backwards sorting out the system glitch that caused it, and if they still produced items I was interested in they would get my business still.

I do understand that postage calculations are difficult, but those companies without account setups also manage – Brigade for one has a PayPal based one that works like a charm and is very handy to adjust orders to suit my budget. And frankly, I find PayPal to be simple and easy to use,a dn have never been ripped off with Forex changes: I wish I could say the same with my Direct Debit card which I chnaged mu CCards for a short time ago, which runs a fee based on the country I am dealing with. I find using the Debit card through Pay Pal avoids that as I pay in my own currency and avoid one lot of fees.

None of this negates the fact that the starter of this thread has had problems and we shoudl appreciate and listen to his concerns. But taht doesn't give him the right to be quite so rude to everyone in the same missive.

Well "the limitation of the software" is not an excuses, it means it was poorly designed – like most of the software out there. Companies should say what they want to a software supplier not take what the saleman if pushing as the answer, because it usually is not. When buying software think like the end user, don't worry about the wizzy stuff, it just costs more anyway (and well all hail MICROSOFT). Geoff it is good to see that you do respond to ideas from your customer base and as I have side you are very quick to reply to requests for information which gets a big tick in my book

I agree about having to creat an account. If using Paypal you shouldn't need to creat an account. As Paypal is a means of trasnferring money to someone without having to have an account set up with that individual or entity.

I think Paypal is very easy means of transferring money for merchants. If there were something as easy to use I would be interested to hear.

Ensign
It only applies as follows:
The regulations apply to a number of different businesses, including:
most UK financial and credit businesses such as bureaux de change, cheque cashers or money transmitters
independent legal professionals
accountants, tax advisers, auditors and insolvency practitioners
estate agents
casinos
'High Value Dealers' – businesses that accept cash payments for goods worth 15,000 euros or more either in a single transaction or in installments
Trust or Company Service Providers

I was thinking of the 'High Value Dealers' part which has been updated. Can't imagine any hobby company being required to register.

Covert Walrus is correct, pay pal is good for what it does, for small business and I support its use. the payment is not the issue – its the requirement to provide personal information when make an inquire about something you may wish to purchase. the situation that we are being forced into is to provide a great deal of personal information to a company in order to ask a question. there has been no agreement to purchase at this stage only a question. this does not happen in a shop or via a phone or email request so why should it have to happen with a web request, I go back to poor design of the software and not understand a transaction from the end users perspective. The hole privacy and required to provide information is a personal bug bear of my so I can rant a but – sorry if it has offended anyone. But one last comment for tonight, as a customer making an inquiry (not a sale), do you know what is happening to the personal information you providing and are you positive it is safe.

If it were not for PayPal I probably would not be back into gaming. I find it works for the level of transaction I want to do, and it is well supported by the vendors I care about.

As far as accounts go, I really don't find it do be a big deal. YMMV (obviously, it does) but I deal with a small number of web merchants (3-4 maybe) on a regular basis so it is no great headache and not very intrusive.

"I'm quite computer literate, thank you very much"

Not as much as you think you are.

I've been in the the Network Banking field for over 20 years. meaning debit/credit cards, PointOfSales(POS) and ATM machines. The amount of regulation placed on business in order to do debit/credit card processing is staggering. The responsibilities placed on retail take a lot of man-power based on the size of the company. Its hard enough for the little guy to compete as it is. All it take is one breach of card information to put a little guy out of business. Just the regulations on notification of breach alone can cost a company millions depending on the size of their database. Take a larger institution like a bank for instance. They can have a database of two million cards. With one breach they would have to notify every single card holder in that database. Now times that by postage and you can see how expensive that can be. Now place that burden on a the little guy who may only have a few hundred or even a thousand cards and it can hurt him pretty bad. And thats only the beginning. Then comes the fines and not just by the Feds. Visa/Mastercard/Amex can fine as much as $10,000 a day for non-compliance.

Identity theft is a big problem. Not just for you but for the business that gets breached. So having a little inconvenience may me off, because I've been in those same shoes when I changed my email address, I won't blame the business for trying to protect me.

But of course "No one except other pathetic souls care about your opinions"

8|

Disclaimer:

The above is by no means a support note for PP. I do think they suck also.

8)

<qWell "the limitation of the software" is not an excuses

No, it means the software has no option and requires an account to function.

Companies should say what they want to a software supplier not take what the saleman if pushing as the answer, because it usually is not.

If we had that sort of money, we would have it bespoke designed. Like the vast majority of wargames companies, we don't. ;-)

Of course, as others have started to pick up on, having no registration necessary potentially opens the customer up to issues of identity and other fraud. It's an inconvenience, yes, but probably better than the alternative.

BTW we've had this discussion many times before. I don't mind the account, especially if we can create wishlists, get notices of restocks of out of stock items, save our cart until ready to actually pay, and keep a purchase history. coolstuffinc.com and newegg.com are good at this.

I agree with this. having an account login especially allows me to dump things into the shopping cart to be saved for later purchase. I especially do this with Amazon, where I have almost 400 books in my shopping cart, awaiting purchase (if I hear of an interesting book, I search for it on Amazon and put it in the cart to be saved). I don't find it too much a hassle because I used the same passwords for everything (which I realize is inherently unsafe, but I do use a "matrix" of combinations which is lengthy to explain right now).

Damon.

No PayPal, no Garrison. Simple as that. This month I've had orders from the US, Canada and Australia. I don't sell enough for credit card facilities to be affordable, sending a cheque would not really work from Australia, PayPal is the ONLY option for me – I'm stuck with it. One the other hand, you don't need an account with me.

The beauty part of Paypal is that every company I order from shouldn't need my contact info. However, they all still seem to want it. Paypal knows where I am.

Some things for the OP to keep in mind:

1. Most free shopping carts were programmed by people who don't actually use them in a practical setting, and who only consider the features merchants want, as opposed to the features that customers want. So, they're usually a mishmash of kitchen-sink functionality that tries to be everything to everybody, and frequently falling short of the mark.

2. Not everybody who starts a business is a programming guru, nor can they afford one. So, a lot of places are stuck with "off-the-peg" cart software, and have only a limited ability to change its behavior. They often can't do anything about it for want of knowledge or money.

3. Even the carts you pay for suffer from the above problems to a degree. Sometimes the code is cleaner and more professional, sometimes not. Again, the problem is trying to be everything to everybody and falling short of the mark.

4. In order to directly take credit cards yourself with a merchant account and gateway, you also have to shell out quite a bit of cash for security vetting/compliance in addition to the bank and gateway fees. The costs of such routinely exceed what little hobby businesses actually earn. The last time I broke out my calculator, you had to clear at least 100k USD in sales a year before taking credit cards directly starts looking affordable. I don't even sell anywhere near that much a year.

5. One of the reasons I like PayPal is exactly because customers don't need to maintain an account on my site, and I don't need to store any private customer data on my server. I like this because it means there's nothing worth hacking on my site, and if my site is ever hacked, my customers won't be compromised one iota. That gives me a peace of mind that you wouldn't believe.

6. There's more people who like PayPal than there are people who don't. When I first started, I only took credit cards through 2Checkout. Sales were good, but I was constantly getting requests to take PayPal. For technical reasons, I couldn't do both at the same time until 2004. At that point, I modified an off-the-peg shopping cart to serve downloads and enabled both the PayPal and 2Checkout modules. I was surprised to find that there was something like a 3:1 ratio of PayPal buyers versus credit card buyers. When I overhauled my site a couple years later, I dropped 2Checkout entirely and kept PayPal. Sales didn't drop one iota--they stayed the same and rose steadily, more so after I enabled the "Account Optional" feature in PayPal.

So, while I do understand the OP's overall message (unnecessarily ranty bits about pathetic people aside), the problem is that most of his complaints aren't addressable in a practical manner by a lot of small hobby businesses.

-Mel

Blimey…

Completely agree with the original poster about being forced to open an account. My life is complicated enough, with millions of passwords to remember. I have walked away from purchases rather than register.

And for PayPal, I understand the frustrations, but since it is convenient, I will use it despite my misgivings.

"I've been in the the Network Banking field for over 20 years. meaning debit/credit cards, PointOfSales(POS) and ATM machines…. The responsibilities placed on retail take a lot of man-power based on the size of the company. Its hard enough for the little guy to compete as it is. All it take is one breach of card information to put a little guy out of business. Just the regulations on notification of breach alone can cost a company millions depending on the size of their database…. Now times that by postage and you can see how expensive that can be. Now place that burden on a the little guy who may only have a few hundred or even a thousand cards and it can hurt him pretty bad. "

Those all seem to be reasons why small manufacturers would *not* want to force their customers to open accounts, not reasons why they would.

There is nothing more annoying than when you are shopping around with several diffferent online shops comparing prices & they make you create an account before they tell you what the shipping is going to be.

I don't mind having an account, as long as it is in the right place in the ordering process.

visit->make account->shop is intrusive, interruptive, and annoying.

visit->shop->cart->transform order into account is much less interruptive, as the shopper has already confirmed interest in what the site offers and will be typing a lot of that data in anyway.

As a customer as well as a software developer who writes retail businesses software that deals with card payment providers, I would 100%, hands-down, every-day-and-twice-on-sunday, rather trust my payment info with paypal than the random one-off webstore of a small hobby retailer.

I know what I'm getting into with Paypal, and I can keep a single account + shipping address with them. No need to add a bunch of personal/financial info into some extra sketchy website.

Of course, you all realize that you've been trolled right?

Trolled or not, it is still an issue that is important and I see it as boiling down to a few points that retails and customers should be aware of.

1. when making an inquiry only why should I have to give my personal information, I only want to know about the product I don't want to purchase yet.

2 when purchasing yes personal information is required to both supply the goods and protect the supplier and customer form the increasing misuse of Credit Card information.

3. what are the other uses of the information provided when setting up these accounts, who has access and what are the safeguards a retailer has in place to protect this information.

4. the use of Paypal or Credit Cards is not the issue. If you wish to purchase from a retailer then they, the retailer, and only they should define how they accept payment, if the customer does not agree they are free to go else where.

5. retailer should not force potential customer to provide personal information until there is a sale so if they have to make provision for inquires including pricing postage and any other request for information they need to do this.

6. Software/web designers, and I am pleased to see at least one is posting here, need to allow for options within the customer/retailer relationship. not everything is about the purchase, while that is the end goal it starts with an inquiry which should not be treated as an intent to purchase.

As I have already said this is a personal bug bear of mine, the requirement to provide personal information when making an inquiry.