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"Single Volley -- Nap Rules" Topic


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quidveritas Inactive Member23 Apr 2010 1:25 p.m. PST

Are there any Napoleonic Rules out there that are scaled to 'real time'. Where each volley is resolved individually, turns are about one minute each, and the actual time needed to complete a maneuver is built into the rules?

I'm guessing scale would have to be 20:1 or less.

mjc

Connard Sage23 Apr 2010 1:27 p.m. PST
Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP23 Apr 2010 2:09 p.m. PST

The closest rules set I know at that level of detail is Chef de Batallion…

Garde de Paris23 Apr 2010 2:18 p.m. PST

That "picture is" truly "worth a thousand words!"

My shortest posting ever!

GdeP

Personal logo Dale Hurtt Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member23 Apr 2010 2:21 p.m. PST

Chef de Batallion is the only one I've ever played on that time scale, other than skirmish rules.

Note: CdB is NOT one volley per turn…

nsolomon99 Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2010 4:10 p.m. PST

You don't specify the scale – platoon, company, battalion. I think you'd have to be very careful with such a set of rules, they could easily become unplayable.

Allen5723 Apr 2010 6:10 p.m. PST

@Connard Sage,

Every time I think about stifling you you come up with something like this. BRAVO!

Defiant Inactive Member23 Apr 2010 7:17 p.m. PST

Every time I think about stifling you you come up with something like this. BRAVO!</q?

lol, I had the same argument going on for me long ago, I just could not bring myself to do it. ;-p

Whirlwind23 Apr 2010 10:06 p.m. PST

I suppose Bruce Quarrie's rules fit, since although each turn is supposed to be two and a half minutes, you are supposed to calculate the effect of each volley (as a proportion of the maximum) and the same for melee. IIRC didn't Newbury's rules work in the same sort of way?

Regards

Defiant Inactive Member24 Apr 2010 2:57 a.m. PST

aye, Bruce Quarrie's rules are pretty much what you are after. The turn is broken up into fractions of a turn that represent portions of time that it takes to perform certain tasks such as deliver a single volley. You decide what portions of the turn you wish to dedicate to movement and what portions to allot to firing of single volley's.

This system is complicated to understand to those not familiar with the concept but if understood the system plays very well. Many players, including me feel that Quarrie is one of the founding fathers of Napoleonics wargaming alongside the likes of Charles Grant and Featherstone amongst others. Only problem is that Quarrie's rules are very hard to find these days, I suggest you jump on Amazons or eBay…

or: link

Personally "I consider Quarrie's system, Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature" as my own personal Napoleonic wargaming bible. This is the book and system that got me hooked into detailed systems that drill down to this level of play.

Shane

malcolmmccallum24 Apr 2010 4:45 a.m. PST

and just to elevate Quarrie that extra little step toward mechanics that you wished you could play, it is simultaneous movement, without C&C restrictions.

Whirlwind24 Apr 2010 5:13 a.m. PST

without C&C restrictions

Well, it does have a C&C system of sorts. IIRC:

Half-a-move to write an order for the commander
Messenger moves at Lt Cav charge speed to subordinate commander
Half-a-move to read the order
Depending on the commander, 0-3 moves to begin carrying out the order.

But subordinate commanders do have latitude to do what they want 'within the spirit' of their orders, so probably not rules for the more aggressive players.

Regards

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP24 Apr 2010 12:37 p.m. PST

What is the name of Quarries' rule book?

Defiant Inactive Member24 Apr 2010 2:45 p.m. PST

1st edition Airfix Orange book 1974 auction

2nd edition Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature 1977 link

Napoleon's Campaigns in Miniature other editions link

All books by Quarrie : link

1968billsfan Supporting Member of TMP24 Apr 2010 4:34 p.m. PST

I love it.

I've always been into

Nation A decides to march to 50 yards, and then let off 5 volleys before charging in.

Nation B decides to stay steadfast, give 3 hardy cheers and save their fire untill the attackers get within 25 yards.

Normally "nation B" is the Brits and they get the advantage of a in-the-face volley and counter charge…. regardless of any other options.

What if Nation A lets off 5 volleys at 50 yards. There wouldn't be very many Nation B guys left.

quidveritas Inactive Member24 Apr 2010 4:41 p.m. PST

1968billsfan

This is exactly the kind of stuff my group has expressed an interest in. The game of 'chicken' as the two sides approach and all that goes with it.

We were messing around with some very rough stuff the other day. It actually moves along pretty quickly -- like way better than I thought it would. Of course we didn't have a lot of friction built into things at that point and no doubt once we get to looking at this (IF we get to looking at this) things may change a bit.

I just couldn't see re-inventing the wheel if someone else has done something with this.


mjc

Defiant Inactive Member24 Apr 2010 5:36 p.m. PST

Just remember,

With Quarrie's rules it is not a case of at a particular range one side lets off 5 volleys while the other guy cops it at 50yds… this is the thinking that caused a lot of players of this system grief and wrong thinking of how the system works.

As already stated, the system works on simultaneous movement and firing. So as side A fires, side B is continually advancing. This means that every 1/5 of the turn side B is getting closer as they suffer casualties etc. They start off at long range and close in by fractions of a turn. It is wrong to think that side B advances his entire move, sits 50yds from the enemy and they both issue 5 volleys at each other and wipe each other out.

The detail and complexity of this system was too hard for many players to bother with and so many later systems took all of that out in favour of much simpler mechanics, the problem with that is that the detail and micro tactics of the btln were lost to those who moved on. Not everyone wanted to understand this anyway but it is a very large part of this system and Quarrie wanted players to understand and appreciate the coordination involved in fire and movement.

I took a leaf out of his rules and designed my system along the exact same lines and detail including simultaneous movement and volleys. The main difference is that we use percentage dice instead of D6 etc and we use 1/4 turns instead on other fractions. But Quarrie's rules are definitely there for those that want to understand the micro management of btlns of fire and movement and the level of coordination that this level of play needs.

I strongly recommend his rules for those interested in this level of detail who otherwise might not know it exists.

Shane

Allan Mountford Inactive Member26 Apr 2010 5:05 a.m. PST

Most 1970's UK Napoleonic rules worked on battalion-level units, 1:20 or 1:33 figure scales and 30 to 150 seconds per move.

It wasn't difficult to follow, but it was slow to play.

- Allan

malcolmmccallum26 Apr 2010 6:21 a.m. PST

If you are interested in the game of chicken aspect, you might find some value in looking at the incomplete (and tentatively abandoned) rules that I was writing where the game focussed exactly on that, making the closing of battalions in battle like a wagering system where players would have to gauge the courage of their men and the courage of their opponents, with hidden dice results.

murat.ca/rules/toysoldiers.htm

Again, not a wholly successful attempt but you might find soem fun tinkering with them.

cturnitsa Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2010 1:07 p.m. PST

Not quite napoleonic, but an old TSR set of rules (Valley Forge by Dave Wesely) dealt with 1 minute turns. Things took a long time (in terms of "number of turns to complete"). If I recall, the reload time on certain artillery pieces was truly impressive. As was the time required for a large unit to perform certain maneuvers.

See link for reference that I am aware of.

Chuck
Convention Director
Guns of August 2010
odms-club.com/convention

Defiant Inactive Member26 Apr 2010 3:31 p.m. PST

Valley Forge is a great set of rules, I own them and do value them also even if designed for the prior periods.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Apr 2010 6:31 p.m. PST

Thanks for the details Shane – just found a copy on Ebay…

Defiant Inactive Member27 Apr 2010 6:49 p.m. PST

awesome mate, good luck with them, they will be invaluable to you if you like the detail. Even to those who don't the information inside is a capture of many varied topics hat almost every wargamer will have need of at some point in their wargaming projects. This book provides a solid foundation to work from for any Napoleonic venture undertaken.

Shane

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