"Goodbye Warhammer Historical" Topic

According to the Warhammer Historical sub-store, international shipping and handling would be 5 GBP

For a large heavy book (which WAB 2 looks like) the actual postage charge for airmail to the US probably isn't much less than that.

Whatever you think about GW I'm sure we all agree they like selling things and making money. I very much doubt that this argument wasn't had in Nottingham and the direct only ploy chosen for a reason which makes (or appears to make) commercial sense. Perhaps someone ought to ask them?

WAB 2.0 would have cost a good deal to produce, it's a premium item, the idea that GW are trying in some sense to run WAB into the ground is absurd. If they wanted to do that they could have just let stocks of 1.5 run dry and left it at that.

To be honest I find statements that people are "rabid" about the new policy and dropping the game out of some sort of principle to be demented. If you enjoy WAB why would you suddenly stop playing it becuase you disagree with a marketing decision made by the company that makes it? This is like when Mongoose announced pre-paints for Starship Troopers and suddenly people were yelling they were dropping the game becuase of it. That's an infantile attitude.

There certainly didn't seem to be any shortage of folk on TMP buying Black Powder and Lasalle sight unseen and direct.

If the new policy doesn't work I'm sure GW will try something else. They're a business, that's what businesses do when things don't work. All we can do is wait and see, buy WAB 2.0 if you like, carry on with v.1 if you don't.

For me the big question is – how different is WAB 2.0 and, is it better? If the answer is very, and, yes, then I'll buy a copy.

To be honest I find statements that people are "rabid" about the new policy and dropping the game out of some sort of principle to be demented. If you enjoy WAB why would you suddenly stop playing it becuase you disagree with a marketing decision made by the company that makes it? This is like when Mongoose announced pre-paints for Starship Troopers and suddenly people were yelling they were dropping the game becuase of it. That's an infantile attitude.

I gather that there has already been some attrition in WAB circles, owing to the very long wait for WAB 2.0 and the lack of new supplements. Moreover, the move to direct sales only is likely to reduce the influx of new WAB players, whether WAB 1.5 or WAB 2.0.

With attrition among existing players and a reduced influx of new players, what are the longer-term prospects for WAB outside of "Blighty"…?

In that light, some current WAB players may well reconsider playing a game for which they expect the number of local opponents to eventually decrease…

Allen wrote:

"So… WHW has been represented at any of the HMGS shows since Rob Broom was fired last year?"

Scott from Pictors wrote:

"It has been represented at every HMGS show that I attended in the last year."

Huh?! The ONLY representation from WH has ONLY been Rob Broom and no other person, official or unofficial. If you mean vendors selling WAB books well then sure. Other vendors do attend and have their stuff to sell. Did you mean selling books?

"The ONLY representation from WH has ONLY been Rob Broom and no other person, official or unofficial."

That was what I thought. Thanks!

Allen

The very fact that we are discussing this on the world wide web forums makes it clear that so long as they keep only half an eye on the internet chatter, most overseas WAB players (and those that don't play WAB to boot) will be well aware of WAB2 developments as they happen. There are going to be plenty of online reviews out there and word of mouth will spread very easily. In fact argueably, thanks to things like blogs, facebook and twitter, "the word" is going to spread far faster and easier than it did the first time with the original WAB.

Admitedly, FW/WH itself hasn't been great at broadcasting the news about WAB2 – but then they haven't actually had WAB 2 to promote until now. It is notable that now that they have, a few newsflash e-mails and adverts in online forums such as TMP have been enough to get the word out and buzzing. Just look at all the chatter! Why waste God knows how much on advertising when we the online world wide public can do it for them? Why spend a fortune distribuiting physical copies to shops everywhere around the world when most people interested in WAB can readily find it with one or two stops online? And they do still answer questions, if you bother to contact them and ask them.

Like it or not, for better or for worst, times have changed guys.

Mail ordering from overseas is not beyond most of you, indeed I would rather suspect that most of you have done it in your time for some figure or publication or piece of scenery not available locally. WAB will be no different.

So personally, I think some here might be over reacting about the direct sales.

In my neck of the woods a lot of gaming is done at the LGS's in the area, and store owners will give little or no support to a product they can't sell (or at least can't sell and make any money off it). If there are multiple requests for table reservations on a weekend, odds are good the one for the game system being sold in the store will win out over the one that is not. This will have a limiting effect on growth of the game in some areas of the US if not elsewhere.

It seems to me that GW are mainly looking at the local (UK) market in making this decision, which is their prerogative.

I'll probably pick up a copy of WAB2 sooner or later since I'm hooked in with the local gamers. It's not a priority though.

I'd already moved on to Impetus and Crusader rules and have no intention of going back. Thanks for the excellent lists in WSS by the way Allen!

Thank you!

Allen

I have been playing GW games long enough to remember the pre-internet days when the ONLY way for our local players to get most GW toys was mail order from the UK. By actual mail with international money orders.

I bought my copy of WAB from the first copies sent to GW US, there were maybe about a dozen of them. Again I was on a first name basis with the Mail Order Trolls.

Having to mail order WAB 2.0 is not what bothers me, per se. It is rather the steady corrosion of support for GW Specialist Games and WH Historical that I don't like.

WAB 1.5 still works fine for me, and I have the army books from the current selection that I want. I have the figures too.

Gaming is a 99% Mail Order hobby for me any way. But I do like the chance to look at physical gaming products before purchase when possible.

This has led to some buys (WECW) and some non-buys Black Powder and WH Great War. The latter due to excessive white space, high price, and soft cover. BP didn't look to do the Periods I am interested in better than what I am currently using.

Very disappointing!

But then again, not the first time I've been disappointed from GW news.

Rabbit

In that light, some current WAB players may well reconsider playing a game for which they expect the number of local opponents to eventually decrease…

Well, OK, but by stopping playing on the supposition that possibly less people might play in the future seems a bit self-fulfilling, no?

As to the whole "lack of support from GW for WAB in 2009" or whenever – so what? The rules are out there, the supplements, the figures. What do you need, a license from GW saying you can play? DBA has absolutely zero "support" other than the rulebook existing and yet it probably rivals WAB for populaity in ancients gaming.

GW canned Warhammer Historial as was and gave it to FW. You can certainly argue that this was unfair on Rob Broom and others. But with a big hardback glossy new version of the rules to bring out it's not surprising not much else happened last year.

Anyway, not trying to start a flame war with anyone or appear like a rabid GW fanboy just my 2p worth. I just think people are getting their knickers in a twist over nothing. When the rumoured DBA 3.0 appears you might see me doing the same of course…

WAB @ LGS: I do a lot of my gaming at the local game store. That's where I've previously bought many of my WAB supplements. The comparison I made elsewhere… Bringing in a game that he can not sell will seem a bit like bringing food from somewhere else into a restaurant. I want my LGS to do well and stay open. In order to do my part, I like to buy as much as I can through them.

WAB @ HMGS: As far as I recall, all WAB support at HMGS shows are through independent retailers doing the selling (who are now cut off) and third party "volunteers" running independent games or tournaments, just like most other games. I don't remember seeing any WAB or WHW trade stands, etc.

As to the whole "lack of support from GW for WAB in 2009" or whenever – so what? The rules are out there, the supplements, the figures. What do you need, a license from GW saying you can play? DBA has absolutely zero "support" other than the rulebook existing and yet it probably rivals WAB for populaity in ancients gaming.

The only problem with WAB, for me, is the lack of army lists. DBA has a fairly complete set of lists. WAB is missing major chunks of popular periods of history.

Regarding the lack of Army lists… it wil be interesting to see what happens regarding Supplements now that the rulebook is out. The delay these last two years was largely due to concentrating on WAB 2. Now it's here, supplements such as the Successors that have been put on the back burner (and revised for the new edition) will begin to be published.

I am curious to see what the new approach and publishing rate will be like.

I like/liked WAB. It's certainly a pity that things dried up the way that they did.

I have no opinion on 2.0 (it might be "the best thing ever", or it might be complete pants), so I'll wait and see. The "direct sales only" thing is a bit off-putting, as this new edition is something I'd prefer to find out a bit more about rather than buying sight unseen.

The lack of lists hasn't really bothered me as, fortunately, all of my areas of interest were covered either by the main rulebook or "Fall of the West", "Age of Arthur" and "Shieldwall". "Siege and Conquest" was good too, as was Warhammer ECW.

If there's a way to continue to use older supplements, then that's good. I can see how it would be a problem for and off tournament gamers, though.

Well, OK, but by stopping playing on the supposition that possibly less people might play in the future seems a bit self-fulfilling, no?

Not entirely – if there are few current local WAB players to start with, and if few people are likely to become new WAB players, then it's really a question of timing – switch to something more popular (and "sustainable") now, or endure the slow attrition to the point of eventually having no choice but to be a solo player.

Mail ordering from overseas is not beyond most of you, indeed I would rather suspect that most of you have done it in your time for some figure or publication or piece of scenery not available locally. WAB will be no different.

It's not so much about current players, as the slightly higher barrier to entry by potential new players…

"It's not so much about current players, as the slightly higher barrier to entry by potential new players…"

There's that, and the loss of goodwill by FLGS owners who heretofore could justify allocating gaming space at their stores on the notion, however shaky, that doing so could lead to sales. Loss of those playing venues, in turn, limits the opportunities to attract new players even more than just losing the shelf space at that store.

None of this is a death sentence, just further handicapping of a system which has been completely outmanoeuvred the last few years by competitors…

Any game store owner that prohibits ANY miniatures game from being played in his store (even if he doesn't carry it) is doomed to complete failure, in my opinion. Having tables full of players will do more to draw others in to the store than any amount of dusty product on the walls. Plus, even if you can't sell the rules, you can sell figures to be USED with the rules, right? Seems stopping games of WAB just because they can't stock the book would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces. 'Course, that isn't unusual with game FLGS owners in my experience…

Plus, even if you can't sell the rules, you can sell figures to be USED with the rules, right?

You would think……

I had been thinking about putting on a few games using a certain system at a local store, so I started to make a few enquiries with the staff. The conversation went a bit like this:

Me – Howya, I've been thinking about running a few games of Really Shiny Gaming System here. What's the chance of getting a table?

Dude – No problem, when were you thinking about doing that?

Me – (Gives date)

Dude – Shouldn't be a problem then.

Me – Right, good stuff. Can you order/ get hold of Perfect Miniatures? They're mainly what I use for the game I'd be putting on, and it'd be good to be able to point prospective gamers towards yourself as a way of sourcing the figs locally. And I'd buy a few myself, of course.

Dude – Lemme check. (plays with computer) Uh, no – we don't stock those.

Me – I know you don't stock them, but can you get them?

Dude – Nope. Our distributor doesn't carry them.

Me – Oh, okay – fair enough. What about…Not As Perfect Miniatures?

Dude – Nope.

Me – Alrighty. Uhmmmmm – Not as Perfect But Still Quite Good Miniatures?

Dude – Sorry.

Me – Fairly Decent Miniatures?

Dude – Nuh-uh.

Me – Ehmmmm…….Totally Ropey Miniatures?

Dude – They changed their terms and we can't get them anymore.

Me – Riiiiiiiight. So, I should probably just point people to the internet then?

Dude – I guess so. Oh – you know there'll be a charge for the table, right? Hey, where'd he go?

[Sound of Jeep engine accelerating, leaves swirl around parking lot – fade to black]