"Goodbye Warhammer Historical" Topic

Just received this announcement:

"Warhammer Ancient Battle version 2 will be available to pre-order directly from Warhammer Historical from the 30th of April. With the release of the book Games Workshop have decided at the highest levels that the best commercial decision for Warhammer Historical as a business to only sell directly to the customer. Therefore we will no longer be offering a discount to Trade customers"

Well, I guess I'll be moving all their books to the discount bin then!

Interesting. As it happened, I had just posted on the WAB Forum a lengthy tome which included:

'Whatever happy little hole others may choose to stick their heads into, a lot of the WAB community has been very dissatisfied for the past year. A lot of players have stopped playing WAB and moved on to other things. It's probably not possible to even approximate what that translates to in sales that were *not* made in 2009 and so far in 2010: not only through lost customers, but also as a result of letting the rulebook go out of print, not producing any further scheduled supplements, and so on. It's also probably not possible to determine what, if any, boost will be caused by the release of WAB 2.0. One thing is certain: by going to direct sales, it will receive no promotion from retailers in their shops. No-one that does not already know about WAB will wander by it on the game store shelves, pick it up, and be attracted by any visual goodness it may have. (Frankly, the pages look very "information light" to me.) When WHW was its own profit center, there was considerable excitement among distributors and retailers when there was a new release; who's going to be driving that train now?'

Allen

Are the Osprey books picking up the slack? If not what are ANcient gamers moving to?

(Mark – recently did the same thing with the WH books)

It is a shame, I love the WH books, to be honest – they are slick and beautiful to thumb through.

The rules aren't horrible either.

And it seems to me you lived your life
Like a candle in the wind…

<sniff>

I would imagine that many of those WAB players that have been "lost" will largely be aware of WAB 2 and out of curiosity will want to try out the new baby. The sctual books will be available at trade shows such as Salute or Games Day, where WH will have stalls. Or they can check out WAB2 in action at clubs and competitions. And then there will be demo games they can participate in to get a feel of the game. In short, WAB 2 will still be "out there". It won't be quite as easy to peruse the books as it was before, but it's hardly mission impossible to get one's hand on a WAB book.

WAB 2 will still be accessible, supplements will still be viewable and WAB itself, instead of stagnating, will become a living growing game again and will enjoy a bounce back over the next few months.

Old players will return to try out the new edition, new players will be attracted by the games that they see and by the WH stalls at functions. And these days most people are quite able to access the online store. So no, this isn't really goodbye Warhammer Historical.

The test will be if the new/returning players like the new product enough and stay.

"…trade shows where WH will have stalls"

"…the Wh stalls at functions"

Pray tell, where will these be found? The Forge World track record for providing WAB and other WHW players with product information is about as comforting as David Ortiz's batting average.

Allen

Erm, Salute and Games Day spring to mind Allen. :) That is all the personal experience that I know about so cannot speak for other wargaming trade fairs and competitions. Like I said though, these days most gamers are quite able to access the online store and the gamers themselves at the clubs and functions will help give hands on access.

To be honest I won't even be looking. I don't go to any shows where WH has ever shown a presence, I'm not going to buy it blind online. To the best of my knowledge playing v1 will not be a criminal offence so I may just do that from time to time.
What it really means to me is that my 28mm historical projects take another step back and I'll look to kickstart the stalled Warmaster projects.

"Erm, Salute and Games Day spring to mind Allen"

And what were the Forge World personnel able to disclose to interested WAB or Great War customers at the last Salute and Games Day? What presence do they have at non-UK events?

Allen

If one is into WAB then one will know to look at the store, sign up for the so called "newsletter" e-mails, ask questions of the staff and keep an eye out.

I am the first to agree that FW haven't exactly been falling over themselves to keep us informed regarding WAB 2 – their silence has been maddening – but perhaps that will marginally improve now that WAB 2 is actually out and they have something to promote?

I don't know what your experience at last Salute was, but mine was of a very communictive and open Warhammer Historical who answered my questions wihtout hesitation. If you talked to them, as I did, you would have been told that they did not intend to release any supplements until the rulebook was out and that the rulebook wasn't intended until "the end of the year" (so ok, they were a few months late with that). They said they intended to review allthe work beingdone, prioritise, get up to speed with WAB and get some of the supplements nearer to completion, so that when the rulebook came out they would be able to publish supplements at regular intervals without unnatural delays in between. Basically the intent was to delay things initially and then, once they started releasing things, they'd be able to do so hitting the ground running.

All last year people were complaining about how "nothing was happening" but all that time, I kept on remembering what WH had told me about a deliberate delay to get up to speed and treat WAb right once they did get going. So far, they have done precisely what they stated to me they would do last March – albeit a few months beyond their hoped for deadline.

So actually Allen, whether you believe them or not (clearly you don't and I accept you have good reason) they DID communicate, if you asked them to.

I must admit that I will buy it, if I see it because I just buy all ancients rules and wonder how good DBA would be it weredone with that level of production values :) Those WH books are quite well done.

I will, of course, never play the game.

"Erm, Salute and Games Day spring to mind"

And how does that help those of us who live in the states or across the pond?

I'll just keep playing version one I like it I see no need to change.

Let me know when Divine Wind is out…..

TheGhost

I must admit that I will buy it, if I see it because I just buy all ancients rules and wonder how good DBA would be it weredone with that level of production values :)

You are almost there if you have the Unofficial DBA Guide. It already is written in good old American English. Now you only have to imagine how much better it would be with pretty pictures!

"So actually Allen, whether you believe them or not (clearly you don't and I accept you have good reason) they DID communicate, if you asked them to."

Being here in the US I have not had any chance to ask them. They don't come to any of the local shows I attend nor to the three big HMGS East shows as far as I know. Nor have I seen any announcements on TMP, at least that I can recall until recently. I, and most of my fellow gamers, rely on the FLGS and local shows for things such as this. So, at least around here, it very much IS good bye Warhammer historical.

If one is into WAB then one will know to look at the store

Clearly the best way to market a new product: only to those who are already aware of it.

"Erm, Salute and Games Day spring to mind"

And how does that help those of us who live in the states or across the pond?

The US is too small a market, I guess. It's the one shaped like a boot, right?

Well, I'm mostly an RPG and WFB player.

Still, I have an interest in history. I've got a shelf of FOG and WMA books even though I've never played those games. I'd certainly do the same with WAB since it's similar to a system I already play and since (unlike those other two) I actually know people that play it.

But I doubt I'm going to mail order the book or trek to a Games Day (they only happen once a year) just to get it.

My friendly local game store will do fine -- I'll walk in there to buy something and I'll spend the money I came to spend. It just won't be on WAB stuff since they can't stock it.

Dunno … Got a feeling that GW is trying to squeeze as much money out of WAB as possible (no discount is more money in the pocket) until sales drop to a level they feel is "beneath them" and they quietly let it die.

Maybe they should do an ancients/medieval version of Black Powder.

"Dunno … Got a feeling that GW is trying to squeeze as much money out of WAB as possible (no discount is more money in the pocket) until sales drop to a level they feel is "beneath them" and they quietly let it die."

------> I heard this same comment ten years ago.

Whether or not Forge World sticks to their marketing plan is their own business. Whether or nor retailers want to carry it is their own business. Whether or not Forge World thinks that selling at discount to distributors is their own business… I don't have a horse in this race.
JJ

Well, I doubt I will be buying it then. Or much continuing to look for new supplements.

I tend to like browsing through games before buying them. Now it looks like I won't be able to do that. WH does not have a stall at my local convention. There is one game shop that carries WAB. I was hoping to be able to look through WAB 2.0 there if and when it came out.

Between this and the continuing lack of Over the Top for Great War (and why was it softcover? at that price…)

Sorry but I will be joining the former WAB players. I am not the only one I know personally.

I never understand why people get annoyed (well maybe I understand why retailers are annoyed) that GW decides to sell its products the way it wants to sell its products. I, for one, will buy WAB 2.0 from whoever will sell it.

But I also don't understand why GW would make this decision. Do they think they'll make more money with fewer trade channels? Is that really possible?

Can there be any other reason? I don't get it.

>"…trade shows where WH will have stalls"

"…the Wh stalls at functions"

Pray tell, where will these be found?
>

Just look behind the door marked "MEN."

------> I heard this same comment ten years ago.

Ten years ago, Jervis was cheerfully (in his copious spare time) shipping off copies of the rules and those supplements then available to distributors and retailers at favorable rates. Not sure why such a thing would have been said then.

Allen

I don't think it will die. I think a lot of companies are shifting to direct sales. It can be marketed on TMP and other places. There are getting to be fewer and fewer hobby stores that carry gaming stuff anyway.

Old Glory basically shifted to a direct only marketing scheme. It isn't quite spelled out like that but it is difficult for a store to compete with the manufacturer at 40% off. Not impossible to sell of course, but difficult.

So I'm not sure in this age of web access and sales that it would not be something that could survive. Most of the stuff I want I do not see in a store first. I see it on TMP first.

If you are in the US, there are Games Days here and you could go to one of those to pick up a copy if you can't order it direct from GW for some reason. Perhaps we will even see it being played at some of the Games Days. Given that Games Day targets an audience that is already into gaming seeing it there might actually increase the number of players getting into the game and the historical miniature hobby by giving the GW crowd a direct shot at it.

I remember the concern someone once expressed about the time WAB was pulled "in house" at GW and the fear that "higher ups" would take it "direct only" then or at some point in the future.

Direct Only offers from a manufacturer, at full price, is well…not something most Americans consider a reasonable offer. There are a few who don't mind of course and I guess those are the people GW wants to limit their market to.

I game at two clubs most weeks. At the first club there are a core of four or five WAB players and we go through spurts of WAB activity, then do other stuff for a while. In the last year, those spurts have 'recruited' two new players.

At the second club, there were no WAB players until this year, when I started cajoling people into playing my large-scale, big-spectacle games and showing how WAB could get all those >thirty-year-old 25s back onto the table for an ancients game that finished in an afternoon and could be enjoyed at the 'slightly above the trivial' level. We now have five new players, four of whom having bought the book and are building collections.

The only thing I've seen on TMP, the Yahoo! forae and the WAB forum this last twenty four hours has been publicity for the new WAB release.

Are we all SURE WAB is dying….?

I feel for those in the USA being "out of the loop" and all, but unfortunately not everything revolves around you. GW is a British business catering for a market that argueably is dominated by Britain. So in this case, we Brits get first priority and the better deal.

Considering America comes first (and is the centre of the universe) in so much else, don't begrudge us this one advantage eh?

Pictors,

The difference is Americans have a bad habit of not buying full price direct from a manufacturer. Russ from OG seems to understand this quite well. GW does not. I know quite a few people who simply go rabid when they learn of "GW Direct" stuff and just won't buy it. Now, GW stuff available from a local or online retailer? That's apparently OK.

Does GW offer Games Days in the US anymore? Does Forge World still attend if so? I thought they had stopped attending but I don't go anymore.

Edit: I have to admit there is something appealing about buying a "UK Only" product. Although buying from the UK and getting a "printed in China" product from a manufacturer who can easily distribute the product in the english speaking world better than any other miniatures/book manufacturer simply takes the cake.

Does GW offer Games Days in the US anymore? Does Forge World still attend if so? I thought they had stopped attending but I don't go anymore.

Almost all of the GW-only show presence in the US was canned after the 2009 season. Forge World stopped showing up after 2008, apparently.

I've never attended one, as even the closest was farther away than Britain is wide.

There is a Games Day in Baltimore on August 21st. As far as I can tell Forge World is attending. It is a listed event on the Forge World website.

I see people buy stuff direct from manufacturers at conventions all the time. Thoroughbred and Eureka are right behind me at all of the Lancaster shows and they seem to do quite well at the conventions selling direct to people.

"If you are in the US, there are Games Days here and you could go to one of those to pick up a copy if you can't order it direct from GW for some reason. Perhaps we will even see it being played at some of the Games Days."

See above. One in Baltimore in 2010, down from three (Baltimore, Toronto, and Chicago) in 2009, isn't exactly moving forward.

Allen

So does this mean that they will not be comming out with a new Pirates of the High Seas game?

I'd ask the author's opinion about that.

Allen

Won't make a lot of difference to our club – we are playing quite a lot of WAB – in fact a lot of new players. We have all the supplements between us and are happy with the current rules.

People don't HAVE to buy WAB 2.0 to keep playing WAB…

Mike

I don't play WAB, but I'm sorry to hear this. It sounds like a really dumb move by GW. I wonder if they imagine they are losing miniature sales (as opposed to rulebooks) from Warhammer Fantasy to WAB, and this is actually a nefarious plot to choce off WAB?!? I doubt they are that foolish or evil. But I don't have the imagination to figure out why they have decided to do this.

Just remember Hanlon's Razor. And Squats.

Allen

I would like to welcome my USA friends to the rest of the world where we have to buy 95% of our stuff by mail order.

WAB2 – I'm buying it.

Given GW's size as a business, surely they must be over the threshold for being able to zero-rate VAT on exports outside of the EU.

Thus, if they were to zero-rate VAT on WAB 2.0 or provide free postage in lieu of zero-rating, I would order a copy.

Otherwise, forget about it!

Good point Pictors I was refering to mail order or from a Mfg Storefront. Conventions are a different beast bringing out a different purchasing habit from the customer. Especially at HMGS-pEnn conventions where there are so many dealers. Being able to "feel it" or see it in "live" does make a difference. Also, it really is facinating to watch the vendor/customer interaction but that's for another topic.

Anyway, there are a lot of choices and many gamers I'm sure those not happy to order direct from the evil empire will find something else they like or suck it up and buy it anyway.

I don't see why retailers simply don't just buy it and mark it up 20% to put it on their shelves. I know I would buy it at 20% above retail from my local retailer just to save on the shipping and to get it as soon as possible.

It's a book, so, if I recall correctly, there is no VAT on it to begin with.

So… WHW has been represented at any of the HMGS shows since Rob Broom was fired last year?

Allen

"Thus, if they were to zero-rate VAT on WAB 2.0 or provide free postage in lieu of zero-rating, I would order a copy."

As Farstar points out, thereis no VAT on books. Forge World currently charges 15% to ship to non-UK addresses, including Canada!

link

I guess we will wait and see whether that stands for the WAB 2.0 release.

32 pounds plus 15% x 1.53 (today's rate) = $56.50. Plenty of people will find that reasonable, given other recent rule releases.

Allen

"So… WHW has been represented at any of the HMGS shows since Rob Broom was fired last year?"

It has been represented at every HMGS show that I attended in the last year.

I would like to welcome my USA friends to the rest of the world where we have to buy 95% of our stuff by mail order.

It's no different in the USA.

According to the Warhammer Historical sub-store, international shipping and handling would be 5 GBP, which is close enough to 15% for some items, but not for others:

link

"I would like to welcome my USA friends to the rest of the world where we have to buy 95% of our stuff by mail order.

It's no different in the USA."

….and there are others of us around the world neithr USA nor UK.. Australia and New Zew Zealand for starters…

Some stuff we buy mail order, other from the LGS although conventions like Cancon and MOAB in Oz see glassy eyed games fork over their largest slugs in one hit… most people I know (me included) spend stupid amounts at the shows whilst in some kind of "hobby spend frenzy". The rules inspire miniature collections and if there is less opportunity to get the rules then something else shiny comes along that is accessible and we buy that…
So, resrticting trade effectively only to mail order for seomthing mainstream really is limiting…