"Salute and Historicon - Compare and Contrast" Topic

I've been to many Historicons, but never Salute. I am sure that some of you out there have been to both, and would like to hear your views on how they are alike and different. No need to say which is "better." I'm sure they both have their strengths.

I suppose that the main difference is that Salute is a one day show that largely has club demo games, whereas Historicon spans four days and largely has participation games. I would love to visit Salute one of these days. My sense is that the terrain quality and game/scenario innovation is a tad higher at Salute than it is at US conventions.

One's in a major city, and gets extensive news coverage, gets up to 4000 attendees, is professionally run, apparently gets celebrity participation, and is easily reached by people from out of the immediate area.

The other has none of this, but lasts four times longer.

LOL!

Then it must be true.

One is a big collection of dice rolling, with the added attraction of dealers and a three-ring circus featuring the BOD.

The other is a big collection of dealers, with the added attraction of occasional dice rolling and a slight chance of exhibition controversey.

"Salute is a one day show that largely has club demo games, "

Salute is indeed only a one-day show, but it is the biggest in the UK. It is not true that it has largely club demo games. many of the games are what we call party games (that's short for participation) – short turn-up-and-play games designed to attract the punters to the joys of wargaming. No laborious sign up sheets for 4-hour gaming slots like at US conventions. See here for this year's list:
link

I think the strength of Salute is its variety.

There are a shed-load of traders selling almost everything wargame related that you can think of.

There are loads of demonstration games, many by clubs, with an amazingly high standard of presentation as people have worked hard to put on something special.

There are loads of participation games. As Mike says, these are short turn-up-and-play type games. You wander up to the table, have a look at what is going on, then someone says "fancy a go" and your playing. Less formal than what I have heard of American conventions.

On top of all this you get re-enactors, radio control tanks and other 'odd' stuff.

dbf, I have not been to Salute, but another decent sized one day show in the UK.

Der Alte Fritz and Cerdic are pretty spot on from what I saw in England versus my Historicon visits.

Historicon is more about gaming spread over a 3-4 day period. These are games where you play the whole game (i.e. 3-4- more hours in length). At the British convention I attended some games you played out, some were demos (maybe play a turn or two), some were just displays. The Club sponsored games are generally spectacular, and you will occasionally find similar here, but a lot of American games are one man efforts.

My hosts explained that they "game" at their clubs, so the conventions were for shopping, visiting , demos, advertising their club we were actually playing a game during the convention, but not very seriously¡K¡KIMHO the British convention is very different than an American format. They are both fun, just slightly different emphasis.

I did do some shopping, and hauled a good pile of lead homeļ

That said Historicon is going to be the closest thing to Salute for miniatures shopping this side of the Atlantic.

I have been to many shows in the UK and the US, and almost every Historicon since the early 1990s.

In a word, I'd have to say that the key differnce overall is "Quality".

Many of the games at Salute are very well done with dedicated terrain, exceptional painting, etc. These types of games make up a much higher proportion of the games on display than at something like Historicon. I have seen very few games at a UK convention for example that consist of a bed sheet or piece of felt with scatter material and a few masking tape roads on it.

Most of the vendors are actual manufacturers in the UK and have a tendency to display their products well. You don't see alot of "garage sale" like stands full of old figures or dollar store stuff "suitable for gaming". Many have painted (well painted) examples of thier products on display.

This post isn't meant to say "evertything" at Historicon sucks (it doesn't) or "everything" at Salute is fanatastic, but I do feel the UK shows, particullary Salute vs Historicon, are of a higher quality of presentation.

Interestingly, I fell that is fairly reflective these days of the "industry" as well.

Just one man's view of course. Please take it with a pinch of salt.

You can fly to one but not the other.

It seems they are of similar size by attendance only H'con is spread over more days of course. Neither is really that big as far as "real" conventions go. Salute is only 4000? I had imagined it might be more. How much does Colours get then? I attended twice back in the nineties and thought it a nice show.

There are few (if any) display games at H'con. The concept of a "display" game seems to be a strange British custom – I couldn't understand it when I encountered them at Colours. I thought it was supposed to be a wargames convention – where is the gaming if it's just a pretty display?

There are quite a few really well put on games at H'con, but perhaps an equal number of poor efforts so perhaps the effect is lost or diminished(?) Or maybe there are just so many games that they get lost – and they are spread out among numerous room. I know the first time I attended H'con I missed whole sections just because it was all over the place.

The dealers at H'con that are actual manufacturers all have professional stands that I can recall.

Both are GREAT! When you are the wrong side of the Atlantic waiting to see if your flight will ever take off to get you to Salute because of a VOLCANO, you realise just how great.

Salute has the new releases, no question. Its a first class show.

But Historicon has the best speakers, lectures, how-to classes and is also a very nice show. Just different.

But Historicon is not "professionally" run.

Probably run by Southerners or something.

:)

I like the Salute style of gaming better.When I go to H'Con,I'm there primarily to shop,not sit at a gaming table for 3-4 hours while people argue over this or that.PLUS, there are a LOT or really badly presented games. AWFUL terrain,rough looking figures, etc.
I've seen pics of Salute and from what I can tell,the quality is much higher.I don't need to play an entire game,I lose interest after awhile and find my mind wandering as to what else I want to buy! .

Bob

Hi

I have been to Historicon 9 times and Salute 3 times. Sorry but hands down Salute is a far better convention. It is very
easy to get to and is in a first rate convention center. The staff knows how to run a large convention. The games are easy to play and have a much higher level of presentation.

Yes the convention is only 1 day but it a full day.

Bill

Well, its refreshingly nice to know that we still do something right in the UK.

I've never been to Historicon but am surprised to read that the quality of the games are often poor, somehow I expected more. Not all the games at Salute are amazing but generally at least a dozen are very inspiring. Some are set up and played others not but often that depends on how many people are involved in bringing the game to the show and if there are enough of them to play and talk to interested parties.

Salute must offer the best single opportunity for wargames shopping there is in my experience of going to 20 or so shows. Although often invited to I've never really wanted to sit down and play as there's so much to wander round and see.

Salute seems to be increasingly being used to launch new stuff and to have companies like the Perrys and Victrix use the show in this way adds to the excitement of the day.

As someone who has done both, I'd plump for Salute. The quality of the games is usually outstanding in terms of presentation of terrain and figures and the variety of traders is excellent. I like Historicon very much, but Salute just edges it out for me.

"Salute is only 4000? "

No, probably more like 6,000. The first 4,000 through the door get the free mini from Black Scorpion.

"I thought it was supposed to be a wargames convention – where is the gaming if it's just a pretty display? "

No, it's a wargames show not a convention. We don't really have conventions in the US sense here. The nearest equivalent in concept (wargamers getting together for 2 to 4 days continuous gaming) would be the Conference of Wargamers (COW) – but that only has about 50 participants!!

"But Historicon has the best speakers, lectures, how-to classes and is also a very nice show. "

None of that at Salute! Shopping, demos, party games, the bar and … er, that's about it.

I thought Salute had 10,000 through the door. I couldn't find any figures on the web site. Any South London War Swords here to give the count?

I spend more time at HMGS-E convnetions looking at the games than playing. If only "a dozen or so" games at Salute are inspiring then they are on par as there are at least that many at H'con. The computer moderated games consistently have great displays; there is typically a 6mm game from the late 1800's period of wars (museum quality terrain); there are usually Command Decision games that are well done; Phil Vitterio always puts on a good game visually; this last Fall In there was a very nice looking India vs Pakistan game (in 10mm?) – and so on.

Sadly there are a great many of us (myself included) who have never had a chance (and likely never will) to attend either show because of distance and/or a lack of funds.

So here is a great big "THANK YOU" to all of you who post photos and reports on the big conventions/shows so that those of us in the far corners of the world can at least get some of the flavor of them.

I, for one, would be delighted to attend either one.

"South London War Swords"

Who or what are they?

altfritz

The 'dozen or so' was my take on it given my own interests. Generally almost all the games look good and the average standard is high. Each year there are about a dozen games that make me think 'wow I want to do this', they are that stunning.

For example there are a good number of brilliant looking fantasy/
sci-fi games at Salute that aren't my thing at all and that don't inspire me but that others would find inspirational.

Piquetone's alter ego says:

One's in a major city,…..

Who cares? I'm in a hotel/convention center all day playing games.

….and gets extensive news coverage,…..

Who cares?

…..gets up to 4000 attendees,……

Who cares? 2500 attendees are plenty for me.

…..is professionally run, ……

Bob Giglio and his all volunteer unpaid staff do a great job. What exactly would justify the expense of professional convention planners? Give your head a shake. There are better things to waste money on. Like trying to follow your advice and move Historicon to Baltimore.

…..apparently gets celebrity participation,……

Who cares?

….and is easily reached by people from out of the immediate area.

Used to be, with air travel only. Otherwise the people who bring their armies, mats and terrain, in other words, the ones who put the games on the tables, generally have to drive. I drive 9+ hours from Canada.

With the move, Historicon is easily accessible by air.

The other has none of this, but lasts four times longer.

But that duration makes the long trip worthwhile. Apparently, we have different priorities when it comes to our wargaming experiences.

Ralph

"…..is professionally run, ……"

Just to clarify, Salute is not "professionally run" i.e it is not run by "professional convention planners".
It is, however, run extremely professionally by a large team of dedicated wargamers who put in many hours of hard labour to both set up, run and take down the show.

I take my hat off to them all. Well done (as ever) to the South London Warlords!

Just to clarify, Salute is not "professionally run" i.e it is not run by "professional convention planners".

And I didn't want to suggest that either. The "professional convention planner" comment was only one of the many (dumb) ideas, suggested by some, on the "Move Historicon Now!" threads here on TMP.

In my experience, your comment of, "….large team of dedicated wargamers who put in many hours of hard labour to both set up, run and take down the show." accurately describes those who make Historicon work, too.

Ralph

Glad that Mike clarified the term Professional in the context of Salute. Professional means only that a person gets paid to do what he does. It does not refer to quality, as a pro can do bad work. Both conventions are run by dedicated volunteers who do great work at Historicon and from reports also at Salute.

I have been to all Historicons and must say the quality of the presentation of participation games there is fantastic. I often say to my self, how can I keep up in this hobby when others do such magnificent terrain and figures. The creativity of the games is another feature that strikes me, people are doing games of almost every episode of human conflict (and other). Sure, there are some felt covered tables but the figure quality is always good and participants are having fun. And so many events. It is difficult to just see them all. So, please let's not say that gamers anywhere else in the world put the H'con gamemasters to shame when it comes to quality of presentation and variety of events.

One slight difference between the two Conventions is in the disposition of used items. At Historicon, there are hundreds of tables, over the 4 days, manned by the owners of the goods being sold. Can someone explain how this is done at Salute? I have heard the term Bring and Buy.

Can someone explain how this is done at Salute? I have heard the term Bring and Buy.

That's correct. You can bring your stuff along, but you don't set up a table and sell it yourself. You book it into the bring and buy stand run by the show organisers and they sell the stuff for you. They take a percentage of the sale price (typically 10%) for their efforts. You are free to wander around and enjoy the rest of the show.

….No need to say which is "better." I'm sure they both have their strengths…"

There may have been no need no on your end, but it looks like one worthy poster took an early opportunity on this thread to get some shots in.

;)

"the bring and buy stand run by the show organisers "

Actually, the BnB at Salute is run by another club (SELWG, as opposed to the Warlords).
Be prepared for long queues both to book your stuff in and then collect your takings and unsold stuff afterwards.
There have also been incidents of stuff going missing from BnBs (though not necessarily at Salute).

"As someone who has done both, I'd plump for Salute. The quality of the games is usually outstanding in terms of presentation of terrain and figures and the variety of traders is excellent."

So do you think the fact that alot of the figure manufacturers are from the UK has anything to do with it?

What about tournaments? In the US Hcon and other conventions are major venues for tournaments, FOW, FOG, DBX, WAB, etc.

Anything like that at the UK shows, or is that a separate club activity? Not weighing in on good or bad, just differences. I for one plan on attending Salute when the ash clears and the wife agrees!

From what I have seen a tournament often is a seperate event in the UK instead of an activity inside a larger event.

@Mike Snorbens
"Who or what are the Soulth London War Swords?"

Tongue in cheek, Mike. I used to live in the area. Actually I am in the spot as I type.

Plenty of bars at historicon.How is the parking at Salute?Probably costs as much to park as the show does.Good thing we opted out of Baltimore.Rob

"What about tournaments? "

Not at Salute.

"How is the parking at Salute?"

£15.00 GBP for the day. Machines are supposed to take credit cards but they don't work so coins are required.

LOL Rob. Baltimore? Was that really considered?

I've flown to Historicon… who says you can't?

"I've flown to Historicon… who says you can't?"
The people who want an international airport 2 feet from the convention site and a limousine to pick them up and drive them the 2 feet to the convention site.

It's actually a cheap flight, $49 USD from Florida (one way)

I've had the limo… Seems that you just need to know who to call (and it isn't the Ghostbusters)

I've never been to Historicon so I'd like to think that they both have their strengths and weaknesses. As Mike Snorbens said, many games at Salute – usually the majority – are participation games. They are or the sort that you can get several whole games in during one day so no one need commit more than a couple of hourse to playing.

There are usually the best part of a hundred games so there are always fifty or so to actually play in.

You never have to pay to play (not sure if that's the case or not at Historicon). The only contradictions to that rule are the occaisional timewasters (ie somehwere to amuse children for half an hour) like radio controlled tank battles and such like.

Parking is below average for a London location. That doesn't make it cheap, but it depends what you're comparing it to. Parking for one car (which might have three to five gamers in) is only going to cost maybe three quid each on that basis.

Other costs – just over a tenner to get in (depending when you bought your ticket) so what's that at the current exchange rate? Fifteen bucks or so? Don't know how much Historicon is. Free programme, figure set (if you're early)…

My difficulty is that, although I've been to the states 3 times in the last two years, I've not managed to get to a gaming convention. Can anyone provide the flip side to the prices, freebies and games numbers I indicated for Salute?

John T

PS – it's closer to 6000 all in all. Remember, 100 odd games with half a dozen bods per game from each of the clubs that come plus the entire membership of SELWG and the Warlords themselves – that adds up to the best part of 700 – 750 gamers, plus those that pay to come in.

Spartacon is the local convention in January. Last I knew it was $10 USD to get in for the day, and either $5-10 in the parking deck or free parking(more of a walk).

Freebies, no.

Games, between 8-14 a session I would guess. 3 sessions for the day.

It's local and very subject to bad weather. But it's a good one.