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DontFearDareaper Fezian15 Apr 2010 12:08 p.m. PST

link

Some Native Americans unhappy about a new wargame called King Phillips War.

Dave

Grumpy Monkey15 Apr 2010 12:13 p.m. PST

my favorite line

"MultiManPublishing, which specializes in games that simulate violent combat, plans to distribute the game as soon as it gets enough orders to justify it."

as opposed to non-violent combat…


Go home hippies

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian15 Apr 2010 12:14 p.m. PST

"former major league pitcher Curt Schilling" is a board wargamer?

DontFearDareaper Fezian15 Apr 2010 12:21 p.m. PST

According to Wikepedia, Curt Schilling is a big ASL fan and into several MMORPG's.

Dave

mjkerner Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 12:21 p.m. PST

"former major league pitcher Curt Schilling" is a board wargamer?


Yep, you bet. Big time into boardgames, especially Advanced Squad Leader.

SECURITY MINISTER CRITTER15 Apr 2010 12:28 p.m. PST

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quidveritas15 Apr 2010 12:38 p.m. PST

Oh yeah, Schilling is an avid Squad Leader Player.

mjc

ComradeCommissar15 Apr 2010 12:50 p.m. PST

In other news:

Germans, Japanese unhappy about Axis and Allies, insist other nations were part of Axis.

Mouse-vs.-Trap board game rankles mice, say it glorifies inhumane treatment.

Hungry hippos unhappy about board game depiction.

M1Fanboy15 Apr 2010 1:03 p.m. PST

Man, people are just LOOKING for reasons to pee in each other's cereal these days…Wait till they see titles like HPS's "Defending the Reich" (Firebombing raids over Germany 1942-1944), or Downtown (US air war over NVN), or perhaps any of the Arab-Israeli games, geez…It's why I tend to be careful about to whom I mention my hobbies.

Lucius15 Apr 2010 1:05 p.m. PST

From the Ms. Jennings bio:

"In 2007, she received Eve Ensler's "Vagina Warrior" Award presented by Rhode Island College for her outstanding advocacy against violence and sexual assault against Native American women."

I swear, northeastern academics are beyond parody, at this point.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 1:06 p.m. PST

I've been after those "Mouse trap" bastards for yeeeeeeaaars.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 1:07 p.m. PST

Generic headline:

Obscure special interest group sees opportunity to gain free publicity by criticizing equally obscure small business or hobby.

Another Account Deleted15 Apr 2010 1:12 p.m. PST

Too Funny ExtraCrispy…


I guess these people don't have anything else to protest about. I can't wait until the next game about the Spanish Civil War comes out and they complain about Communists/Anarchists being killed.. LOL

The great thing is that it will be a popular seller now. :)

SBminisguy15 Apr 2010 1:14 p.m. PST

I think, like, History should be eradicated since, like, someone might be, ya know, upset or something about something that happened like, almost 500 years ago. So if there's no history, then there's no reason to be upset and we can all, like, ya know, live in the moment. Fer sure!!

RudyNelson15 Apr 2010 1:14 p.m. PST

Old news editor. It has been known for a long time that Schilling he loves boardgames.

SBminisguy15 Apr 2010 1:17 p.m. PST

Wait, maybe if there was a boardgame celebrating Che and Fidel called Viva La Revolucion it would be awarded glowing reviews by these academics!

D6 Junkie15 Apr 2010 1:19 p.m. PST

I wonder if they thought the game was going to be
a video game?
But hey, all the hype should increase sales.

Sundance15 Apr 2010 1:20 p.m. PST

Schilling put up a lot of the money for MMP to buy ASL from AH when they were going under.

Who asked this joker15 Apr 2010 1:23 p.m. PST

I knew Schilling was an MMORPG player but I had no idea he was a wargamer as well. Good on him!

As for the Native Americans, it can't hurt to get their input. In fact it just might help.

Grunt186115 Apr 2010 1:25 p.m. PST

Curt Schilling is majority owner of Multi-Man.

Mulopwepaul15 Apr 2010 1:27 p.m. PST

Curt Schilling effectively IS ASL for the moment…

Blackhawk115 Apr 2010 1:28 p.m. PST

Schilling is a massive gamer- he is very well known within the WOW community although he keeps his toons secret.

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 1:31 p.m. PST

Wait until those tribal people discover that Brigade and Conquest make figures for the war. Phil Barker gives army list for DBR.

It was a very bloody war. Atrocities, as we would call them today, were committed by both sides. I suspect what the tribal people fear most is that others will discover that the Euros won the war, and conquered the eastern North America area, because the natives did NOT unite to defend their lands, but instead fought each other for short term gain. This is how they won. The colonists formed raiding parties of friendly Native Americans and volunteer militia. The Euros are always able to divide and conquer -- all over the world.

I wonder who provided the false info on the demise of KP. He was shot trying to get away from one of those mixed raiding parties. It might even have been a native who did it. Maybe he was beheaded post mortem. Does that deserve a paragraph to itself?

What we do not see in the article, is any specific complaints about the game. Is it just the fact that it ""It's just a way to have fun reliving a tragedy." If this is now a negative personality trait, then we had all best retire from the hobby of having fun reliving tragedy. Maybe I will make a tee shirt
MY HOBBY IS HAVING FUN BY RELIVING TRAGEDY

Perhaps we should all move to fantasy gaming, having fun making up tragedy.

SBminisguy15 Apr 2010 1:32 p.m. PST

Wait…I think I'm offended by the way my Pictish ancestors were treated by the Romans. I demand that Warlord Games and all makers of so-called games that trivialize the horrors my ancestors went through -- war, slavery, their unique culture and way of life destroyed -- immediately denounce their Roman miniatures lines as imperialistic warmongers, and make every figure that leaves the mold take a Sensitivity class. Furthermore, all Pictish (and even Celtic!) miniatures will be re-sculpted with smiley faces, be fully clothed and bear no weapons except placards reading, "Romans Unfair to Picts," and "Picts are People Too!"

M1Fanboy15 Apr 2010 1:32 p.m. PST

I wrote this on the msg board, I expect to be flamed but hey, some need to learn there is no free lunch, borrowed from Parzival:

Obscure special interest group sees opportunity to gain free publicity by criticizing equally obscure small business or hobby. Really, the hand wringing is amazing. Most of these games come with detailed historical notes and pretty hefty bibliographies to describe the event the game is about. I've been a wargamer for 20+ years. You really do understand how differing cultures approach military science. And trust me, EVERYBODY has an approach.

Sure, you might miss some of the "softer" factors that lead up to the conflict, it's why smart gamers read up on the periods they play. My wife groans when we go to a bookstore, because invariably, I'm walking out of there with a military history or three. You can't be in this hobby and NOT be well read.

Which means this; We tend as a group, to be very politically incorrect, but also, very inquisitive. Wanna know how much work I put into one miniatures army (Dutch in 1940 for those interested)? Hundreds of hours doing the research to find period photos as well as museum exhibits of the Dutch Marine garrison in Rotterdam in 1940. I had to speak to several museum officials in the Netherlands, and I don't speak Dutch…happily, their English was better. This is TYPICAL for the hobby..good designers, good authors, put the time and effort in. Especially on the board game side where printing costs are escalating. Crap games don't sell, and trust me…people will see right through a crap game.

So folks, while what we do may not be your cup of tea, why don't you try something that used to be in fashion? You have your fun, I'll have mine and we'll leave each other alone? I don't tell you how to have fun, try to do the same, kapice?

mrwigglesworth15 Apr 2010 1:44 p.m. PST

"Some Native Americans unhappy about a new wargame called King Phillips War"

This is America and they have the right to be unhappy.
Just as MultiMan Publishing has the right to make the game.
After all everybody is unhappy about something is that news?

aecurtis Fezian15 Apr 2010 1:48 p.m. PST

My home town in Maine (Buxton, originally Narragansett #1) was originally a land grant to a number of soldiers who fought in King Philip's War. Almost a century later, the family farm in that town was a grant to an ancestor for his service in the American Revolution.

I'm confused: exactly which violent episode in colonial history should I *not* be commemmorating? The part where we defended ourselves against terrorist attacks, or the part where we fought to gain our independence?

And how about those family members who lost their lives to shrieking savages in attacks and massacres during the war? How about those slaughtered or carried off into captivity in Deerfield, Massachusetts, in Queen Anne's War? (We had folk there, too.) Or the victims of the burned-out communities in what would become Maine right up through 1781 (the last recorded Indian raid, in Bethel)? Do any of them get a vote?

Here's an account of a raid on what is now Cape Elizabeth, Maine, during King Philip's War, *after* the attacks on Massachusetts settlements had ended:

PDF link

Smallpox had wiped out most Indians in New England before ever the Pilgrim Fathers set foot on the land. The Pequots, Narrangansetts, and Niantics were spared that. Yes, they suffered from the war. Now they're getting their revenge, scalping the whiteyes at Foxwoods. Let it go.

Allen

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 2:00 p.m. PST

I am personally offended by the way the Minnesota NFL team and countless movies portrays my ancestors as blood thirsty bands of roving savage barbarians terrifying helpless villages. They were of course simply just harmless farmers and homesteaders who were grossly misunderstood innocents. While I am at it I think I may seek reperations from Italy for the way the Romans enslaved and slaughtered my earlier ancestors for 600 years.
Russ Dunaway

SBminisguy15 Apr 2010 2:00 p.m. PST

M1Fanboy, here's my thumbs up Yahoo reply:

Yep. Historical Wargame designers are part historian, part educator. They put an amazing amount of research and work into their games to make them as factual as possible. What happened, happened, and that's what they will try to represent in the game (or simulation, or whatever you wish to call it). I would bet that there's a truly staggering bibliography to back up the game, and if they actually spoke with the designers they'd be astounded at much they knew about both sides of the conflict -- and the folks complaining would probably also be shocked to find out that some tribes allied with the Colonists against other tribes, flipped sides, went back, etc. There was no "Native American" identity 450 years ago, it was tribal. As a Scottish-American I have my own family history of ancient tribalism, the Clans system, that saw Scots ally with the English against other Scots because of tribal/Clan hatreds. What's more, it was all about tribal survival against "the Other." Look at history -- a lot of inconvenient truths, like there were Native Americans who fought FOR General Custer against other Native Americans, or that most Africans subjected to slavery, who were enslaved in Africa as opposed to being born into slavery, were enslaved by other African tribes and sold as chattel. History is messy because, well, human nature is messy.

RudyNelson15 Apr 2010 2:06 p.m. PST

One sad thing is that what is acceptable today may not be next week. Just look at how many colleges and high schools have had to change their team mascot names.

So even is you are trying to be politically corrsct, what may be OK when you were playtesting and getting drafts finalized, may not be acceptable by a VERY FEW when it finally makes it to press and marketing.

I am sure if I showed some native nations my 15mm precolumbian native tribes, some would say fine and others would want minor changes. Sometimes the native 'experts' that I have consulted on varuious projects, may not be able to give definative answers.


Best just to move forward and ignore the critics.

CmdrKiley15 Apr 2010 2:21 p.m. PST

A wargame trivializing war? Obviously they have no experience, and probably no interest whatso ever, with historical wargaming.

They make this sound like this guy is trying to make the boardgame equivalent of Custer's Revenge or something.

wminsing15 Apr 2010 2:30 p.m. PST

This doesn't surprise me. I have been told, to my face, that my hobby celebrates crimes against humanity and so I am a sick, sick person. More people running around out there with that opinion then I care to think about.

-Will

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 2:45 p.m. PST

I bet the tribes with the casinos in the area could care less- they are the tribes that sided with the pilgrims.

McKinstry Fezian15 Apr 2010 2:45 p.m. PST

This does not bode well well for my forthcoming Sand Creek/Wounded Knee frontier series of single player games.

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 2:49 p.m. PST

KPW was the bloodiest war on american soil when casualties / population is taken into account.

CmdrKiley15 Apr 2010 2:50 p.m. PST

and I'll bet they don't let their kids play dodge ball but will give them a participation award for anything else they let them play.

Korvessa15 Apr 2010 3:10 p.m. PST

I am personally offended by the way the Minnesota NFL team

Not as bad as how the NBA portrays my Irish roots. That mascot looks rediculous.

thosmoss15 Apr 2010 3:11 p.m. PST

MMP couldn't pay for better advertising.

morrigan15 Apr 2010 3:26 p.m. PST

"Some Native Americans unhappy about a new wargame called King Phillips War"

I'm trying to give a **** but it's not going too well…….

aecurtis Fezian15 Apr 2010 3:35 p.m. PST

"I bet the tribes with the casinos in the area could care less- they are the tribes that sided with the pilgrims."

Well: see above. It's… complicated. Foxwoods is owned by the Pequots, who had been mostly wiped out by the colonists in the Pequot War; the Narragansetts sided with the colonists in that one. A few Pequots assisted the colonists in King Philips' War; but the Narragansetts aided the Wampanoag. The Narragansetts and Wampanoag are both working on casinos of their own, but don't have them approved yet.

Some Mohegans (or Mohicans, but they're *not* J.F. Cooper's Mohicans, who are Mahicans) allied with the colonists, like the Pequots; they have *two* casinos, Mohican Sun and now Pocono Downs--so yep, they came out all right.

The Nipmucs (who mostly had been converted as "Praying Indians") and Podunk came out badly from the war. The Nipmuc were dispossessed, relocated, and most of them simply starved during the war. So much for becoming Christian! The federal government doesn't recognize the Nipmucs as a nation, and the Podunk eventually merged with the Schaghticoke, who have just recently been recognized.

So yes, the tribes that currently have casinos were to some degree allied with the colonists during King Philip's War, but the Pequots had had their own war (to their detriment), and some of the howling red savages who murdered and scalped across Massachusetts are likely to get their own. Plus the tribes of the Wabenaki confederacy that terrorized Maine at the time keep asking for one; in 2003, the sensible citizens of the state voted down one that the Penobscot and Passamaquoddy wanted to build in Sanford.

By the way, I have a pair of conch shells which family tradition held were used back then to call the men in from the fields to the blockhouses when the Indians attacked.

Allen

Mulopwepaul15 Apr 2010 5:27 p.m. PST

Isn't this like the Japanese getting upset about World War II games? When one takes one's best shot, and it blows up in one's face…move on.

Astonishing cheek, trying to make a war they started, and then spectacularly lost, their exclusive property.

DalyDR15 Apr 2010 6:15 p.m. PST

The band Aerosmith had their first performance at Nipmuc Regional High School in Massachusetts, in 1970.

Just felt like throwing that bit of information into the mix…


Dave

aecurtis Fezian15 Apr 2010 6:43 p.m. PST

Man, Steven Tyler did a horrible job with "God Bless America" at Fenway the other night.

Allen

vtsaogames15 Apr 2010 6:50 p.m. PST

Someone always gets their knickers in a twist about something. Back in the day Junta got a rave review in New York magazine. (Thank you, Barbara Costikyan. I wonder if her son Greg Costikyan "Creature That Ate Sheboygan" had anything to do with that.)

In short order a letter arrived at the Compleat Strategist from a woman who certainly had never seen the game accusing me of being a fascist and asked if I would next make a game of the holocaust with melting baby dolls. Left wing me a fascist? Harumph.

Brent2751115 Apr 2010 7:49 p.m. PST

Sounds like some people need a little more fiber in their diet.

Personal logo Doctor X Supporting Member of TMP15 Apr 2010 8:18 p.m. PST

I think the obvious in hiding in plain view.

This woman is a Vagina Warrior…she is complaining about wargaming….

Warrior…wargaming….hello?

This is clearly a sign that she is a gamer hired to Schill (bad pun intended) for MMP.

I figured all that out right away and I only had six years of high school.

mandt215 Apr 2010 8:54 p.m. PST

I have a new design coming out myself. I'm going to call it "Osama's War." One player plays the Americans, and the other al Qaeda. The American player smart bombs Arab buildings, and the al Qaeda player flies airliners into American buildings. The player who has knocked down the most buildings wins. Day care centers and orphanages count double. After that my next game will be titled "The Holocaust." I don't know why anyone would be offended by war and death being the subject of a game.

Aw shucks. I'm being a smartass. I game the very same subject with Conquest minis (Isn't Eric Native American?). I think wargamers are often misunderstood. In fact, I think wargamers are misunderstood by anyone who is not a wargamer. There are people who think anything that can be described as a "wargame" is offensive. I am certain that there are subjects that even most of us would find offensive. It just depends on your point of view, and how close to home a game topic hits.

Lee Brilleaux Fezian15 Apr 2010 9:24 p.m. PST

This is very much a case of "Whose ox is gored?"

A boardgame company works on what we – the wargaming fraternity – knows will actually be the sort of complex exercise in geekery that 500 people will buy. The designer hopes it is well researched and has some educational value. Good for him. Been there myself. I'm sure he's done an honest, fair-minded job.

Then – to everyone's surprise – some Native Americans get what must surely be the wrong end of the stick and assume it's some sort of family game in which uncle Bert gets to wipe out the Wampanoag to general chuckling. Or maybe a first person shooter game. Nobody knows about these odd historical simulation games. NA groups are notoriously thin skinned about the whole 'getting shafted for hundreds of years' thing. You'd have to be an idiot not to understand why.

Enter the idiots, in the form of (at least some of) the TMP readership.

Sure, we can all say "Get over it", but that's always a slippery slope. Most of us aren't bothered that the Romans beat up our ancestors (well, mine anyway). Most modern people have a pretty short sense of history, anyway. I don't think we generally see events of three centuries ago as an ongoing tragedy. (That's why I was so surprised when my 'I Heart Cromwell' T-shirt went down so badly when I visited Drogheda. Who knew?)

Still, if I tell you about my really cool game in which you get to (depending on your own loyalties and nationality) get to -

1) Be an Al Queda operative and fly planes into the Twin Towers. Or take a truck full of fertilizer to a day care centre in a federal office building.

2) Be an IRA bomber and blow up public figures in the UK. Or just heroically shoot people on their own doorstep.

3) Add your own "This may cause offence and probably will ---" scenario, to taste.

I am pretty sure that there would be people here suggesting that maybe that wasn't an appropriate form of entertainment.

And I am pretty sure I'd agree with them.

Major Mike15 Apr 2010 9:31 p.m. PST

The best game for Academics is an old Avalance Press game called… "Survival of the Witless". You take on the roll of a professor trying to reach tenure. It has some very relavant aspects to this topic and the university scene.

Mulopwepaul15 Apr 2010 9:54 p.m. PST

The difference between such hypothetical "Holocaust" games and King Phillip's War is that the putative aggrieved victims of the KPW game--the Wampanoags--were the ones who started the war.

By the "Holocaust" or Al Qaeda analogy, it would be like the sons of SS veterans or Al Qaeda terrorists demanding that no one game WWII or modern conflicts, not because war is evil--were the Wampanoags ignorant of the existence of other wargames up to this point?--but because they didn't like that their ancestors got the wrong end of the sharp, pointy stick that they themselves had picked up with malice in their hearts.

Most people would not be unduly concerned…

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