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"Fast and Dirty (FAD) rules" Topic

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Cheomesh02 Apr 2010 8:55 a.m. PST

Does anyone here have experience with F.A.D.? I decided to use it over No Quarters because it seemed a tad more in depth. My only real complaint is that it uses d6's.

All the wargames I've ever played had individual shooting and individual skill being everything, but this is different. I think I'll like it, especially since it looks like it'll be fun with only a few figs.


ThorLongus02 Apr 2010 9:14 a.m. PST

i like it a lot, although still awaiting my first game

Number602 Apr 2010 9:55 a.m. PST

It has some interesting mechanisms. I'd like to see if the really have an interesting effect on play.

Makers of games and rules need to start posting YouTube videos of playthroughs.

GreatScot7202 Apr 2010 10:22 a.m. PST

I think it pretty interesting as well. Have played a number of solo games. but have never gone "live" against anyone (cough in Steve's directon). The streamlined mechanics seem very appealing and intuitive to me.

Personal logo javelin98 Supporting Member of TMP02 Apr 2010 10:29 a.m. PST

I threw together a unit design spreadsheet for the system a few months ago. It's still very "beta"-flavored, but if you want a copy, send me an email at javelin98 AT lycos DOT com.

GreatScot7202 Apr 2010 10:47 a.m. PST

Sounds, cool, Javelin! Email sent.

cb3507902 Apr 2010 11:00 a.m. PST

F.A.D plays very well, but it is much more suited to platoon sized games (3-5 squads per side) than games with just a few figures. I say this for two reasons.

1. The squad level "feel" from F.A.D. is ideal and
2. Stuff dies quickly with these rules. It is hard sci-fi.

Your first hunch on using No Limits for smaller numbers of figures was a good one, a very nice system. I use both rules, for the reasons described above.

Cheomesh02 Apr 2010 9:59 p.m. PST

Yeah, it'll only be a "few figs" until I get some more. I -really- want to mess with those pig iron figs…they are beautiful. As I can, I'll be adding on to it bit by bit as I feel less compulsion to "race" to 2k points worth of guys (from a GW perspective).

For now, I'm just using the Copplestone/EM4 Trooper figs as one faction, and my opponent is using what may end up as a mix of GW tac marines (as elite "foot knight" things) backed up with Russian Revolution guys (or similar bolt action dudes) as "peasant levy" forces. Or something else completely; he's just using GW tac marines for now.

Short, brutal games would be pretty nifty. For some reason he really disliked No Limits even though he liked No Quarter. Thanks for the feedback though, I look forward to seeing these rules in action.

Also, are there any other 28mm "hardish" sci-fi/modern rulesets out there that (most importantly to me) allow you to build your force from profile from the ground up?


Battle Works Studios03 Apr 2010 6:51 a.m. PST

Majestic 12 makes a game called Defiance that has one of the most extensive army and troop construction system I've seen in a "hard scifi" game. The Shock Force/War Engine/GWAR rules are also pretty good for build-your-own, but they don't feel quite as gritty somehow (especially GWAR).

khurasanminiatures03 Apr 2010 7:44 a.m. PST

Has anyone tried gaming with xenos in FAD? I thought about using them for gaming with my space demons, but the games point system looks like it's designed purely for human on human encounters (including aliens that are basically human in combat style). Everyone is point valued as if they have a ranged weapon, but not having one is a huge handicap in the game, and getting the xeno bonuses -- I'd say Agile, Assault Troops, and Hive Mind -- is expensive (troops with all three cost 2.3 times as much as normal troopers). Even troops with all of those skills are assumed to be shooting themselves into close combat (the little drawing that is next to the Hive Mind ability shows bugs with rifles) and without that ability I don't think a xeno force is viable. Also there's no rules for monsters so the larger xenos are not covered at all.

Anyone try doing this? The problem with extensive home rules mods is you have to sit and do them, then make sure they are balanced and work.

Cheomesh03 Apr 2010 9:26 a.m. PST

Yeah that's something I noticed as well. I think it was originally designed as a purely modern/near future Earthmen vs Earthmen kind of game, and not a more usual sci-fi with aliens and weird critters and all that.

I will check out Defiance, if only to see this indepth system.


cb3507903 Apr 2010 11:27 a.m. PST

I think that unarmed troops are -1 in points, then go from there. Aliens like the kind you are describing have some additional rules in the supplements on the F.A.D. website, or on the forum, can't remember which.

A good starting point is to treat the aliens as Hive-mind, unarmed, with power armor, so that they get the additional close combat bonus. Making them Swift gives an extra 2" of movement, so that they can get into CC faster.

I have done this only twice, once starting at different sides of the table, and another with the aliens hidden among buildings with humans wandering through them. In the first case, a few turns of HW fire decimated the aliens, in the second, a much better game.

khurasanminiatures03 Apr 2010 11:45 a.m. PST

Yes, I remember that weasel suggested that they be -1 to points cost for being unarmed, but IMO that isn't really a suitable way to rep it in a game that centers around fire fights.

Think of it this way: If you took a human squad that was unarmed, are you ok with them bring just 1 point less than their foes who have rifles?

For the most part, a model in FAD is a firearm with a pulse. grin. A plain vanilla model that has no gun is virtually worthless in the game.

Ps: power armour for the xenos? Hmm, won't that make them way too resistant to shooting?

cb3507903 Apr 2010 12:17 p.m. PST

Well, somewhat resistant, but it does help balance out the lack of rifles. I was just throwing out how I did this, as F.A.D. is really a top-notch set of rules. The -1 is a little low, should probably be -2, which is half the cost.

IMHO, in a futuristic setting, it is perfectly acceptable for unarmed bugs in the open to get shredded by troops armed with advanced weapons. However, put those same bugs in a situation where they can get the jump on those troops, and things run much better. Really, it was actually pretty fun, but maybe 40k or something else less "hard sci-fi" would fit what you want these bugs to do?

Cheomesh03 Apr 2010 9:37 p.m. PST

That was one advantage to core No Limits; I could, if I wanted to, have melee oriented troops. Though, realistically, they'd be deployed in specialist situations. Think troops in China in the late 30's against the Japanese. They couldn't manufacture rifles fast enough for the recruits, but they couldn't afford to NOT deploy them. Result? Arm them with Dao. How were they used? Engage them with riflemen, draw them into an ambush where the dao armed men can spring out of cover directly into the enemy. The Japanese don't get a lot of shots off before you're inside, which has a distinct morale advantage to it.


khurasanminiatures03 Apr 2010 10:35 p.m. PST

This isn't a matter of soft vs hard sci fi, it's a matter of proper point values. If they are going to get massacred by fire in the open, then the points should reflect that. I don't want sci fantasy like 40k but even in hard sci fi something could be done to reflect that they are capable of covering the fire zone rapidly and with superhuman agility to moderate the casualties a bit.

Battle Works Studios04 Apr 2010 1:09 p.m. PST

Yes, but if you set the base cost of an unarmed model at 2 points (as cb35079 suggested) I think you've got enough of a points break to get the numbers and traits to be competitive, at least with a little favorable terrain. I'd go with Swift over (or in addition to) Agile myself, and if you want to shave points Bug Hunter might (ironically) be almost as good a choice as Assault – they'd get the bonus for fighting non-Space Demons, which should be the norm. You might also consider a variation on Infection to represent the acid blood thing.

Cheomesh05 Apr 2010 9:16 a.m. PST

I guess with abstraction you win some and lose some. I'm setting up a wiki that will house the unit stats and fluff which I will link here when I have enough "shareable" info. Right now it's just a little intro to the "universe" this is being fought in. I find using Wiki's easier than trying to distribute a PDF, especially since I don't always get to see the people I game with regularly.


Vulture06 Apr 2010 3:18 p.m. PST


FAD plays quite well. I like the fact that its a very accessible set, and the fact that basic rules alone will provide a good game. There are a couple of AARs of games I've had in the last few months on my Blog, that you might find of interest.




Cheomesh06 Apr 2010 3:54 p.m. PST

Thanks for the link. Was that recent power armored game also in 15mm?

Here's a wiki I'm creating for the (majorly WIP) "universe" my FAD games should be taking place in:


Right now there's only light info about one part of a faction (the Ethisian Advanced Recon Corps), represented by a handfull of EM4 trooper models. Any "blue" link can be followed, though it's mostly just blerbs of info as it strikes be to type it up. It will be honed, refined and made better as time goes on. Feedback would be nothing short of fantastic.


Vulture06 Apr 2010 4:05 p.m. PST


Yes the power armour game was using 15mm figures. The Hvy Power guys are from the range.

The wiki looks an interesting idea. I'll be dropping by to check on progress.



(My Blog: link )

Cheomesh06 Apr 2010 11:50 p.m. PST

Thanks. It'll be updated along the lines of what people would really like to see in conjunction with what I feel I want to say. I did another one for another table top game, No Quarters.

Right now I'm trying to fiddle with a map tutorial so that people have an idea of who's where and all that.

Apparently a new version of FAD is due out sometime soonish, which brings better vehicle rules, or so it would seem.


Vulture07 Apr 2010 3:52 a.m. PST


The vehicle rules are one of the weaker areas of the rules IMHO. The trick is to make them more robust without overly complicating them, otherwise the set will stray from the key premise of being fast to use…


Cheomesh08 Apr 2010 10:03 p.m. PST

Yeah, that's where I've heard most games have their issues. Having only really played 40k when it comes to vehicle combat, I'm working mostly off of here-say.

I suppose the solution is that their Vehicle rules would have to be somewhat different than their infantry rules to take into consideration the various things that makes man and machine different :p

I guess the tricky part is where they intersect…


Weasel15 Apr 2010 5:30 p.m. PST

I just noticed this discussion as I've had a bit of a hiatus from design work.

I am the author of the set, and I'd be happy answering any questions.

As far as vehicle rules, I am going through some various ideas to flesh out tanks a bit more, and get more of a proper feel. Its true that FAD is an infantry game first so there's a little catchign up to do.

As far as unarmed models, it really depends. If they are relentless or similar traits, they are basically impossible to stop with gunfire. Some may die, but the rest will reach contact.

Provisionally, a unit with no ranged attacks at all propably will need a trait to redress the balance more effectively. (this also distinguishes between a unit with a few small arms vs a unit that does not have the capability at all). 0.7 is propably a good multiplier starting out, but I'd have to run the numbers

For big bugs, check out the supplemental PDF on the forum. We have a few new traits to help cover "momma bug!"

Cheomesh23 Apr 2010 10:25 a.m. PST

Here's what my FAD universe is slowly turning into:

Next step is to add in the power-armored feudals. If you think you have an idea as to how it can be better written (any article) go for it; I'm open for suggestions.


Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP08 Jul 2010 6:36 a.m. PST

BWS, I just read a review of "Defiance". It sounds pretty interesting. Thanks.

Battle Works Studios08 Jul 2010 2:21 p.m. PST

Defiance isn't my favorite scifi ground combat system, but the DIY troop & army builder really does give you an unequalled number of options IMO, and Majestic 12 has proven in the past (in Starmada, Ares, and Iron Stars, at least) that their math will produce point values that are at least reasonably accurate, even for real weirdies.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP08 Jul 2010 8:47 p.m. PST

I decided it was worth having a look and forked out the $. USD If I get around to playing it I'll post a review.

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