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"War of Spanish Succession - Marlburian 28mm WIP Shot" Topic


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Fifty401 Apr 2010 2:03 p.m. PST

We've been working on the designs for the next Wargames Factory range – 28mm multi-part hard plastic Marlburian period infantry for the War of Spanish Succession.

We previously posted a work-in-progress of a tricorne head – this is the second WIP shot of a march attack pose figure. This figure is one-piece and ready for molding. We invite your feedback and criticism!

link

Thanks again!
Tony

Tony Reidy
Wargames Factory
wargamesfactory.com

Personal logo Unlucky General Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2010 2:53 p.m. PST

Tony,

They've come some way along haven't they?

Overall I like it. The musket looks to be a reasonable length. I'm not so sure about the hem at the bottom of the coat and for my money, the hat could be a little larger or flared.

I'm sure they will paint up very nicely.

Dave Crowell01 Apr 2010 3:05 p.m. PST

Oh Tony you are a glutton for punishment aren't you?

If it weren't for today's date I would be sending you my CC number right now…

Ready for molding? Good now Tim can stop fooling around and get on with important things. Like the cavalry, and artillery, and GNW, and dragoons, and cavalry, and ….

idontbelieveit01 Apr 2010 3:05 p.m. PST

It looks nice. Some nice sculpting work there on the coat.

Here are my comments
1) this is similar to a previous comment someone made – I would either drop the tape on the hat or make it bigger. Personally I can paint an unraised edge pretty easily, but if I have to paint a raised edge I think I'll need more surface to work with
2) what is the raised edge around the coat? I don't think I've ever seen that on any image of a coat in this period anywhere, except maybe for officers who
3) no buttons on the cuffs?
4) the folded up sides of the tricorn itself looks pretty tight to the top of the hat, unnaturally so. I guess this guy is supposed to pass for dutch and the images of dutch I have show a much less turned up hat.
5) what is that big ridge just below the knee supposed to be?

Fifty401 Apr 2010 3:21 p.m. PST

Big ridge below the knee are the gaiters holding up the stockings.

Don't worry about the head so much at this point – that was done to see if a tricorne could be molded on the head in one piece. We're going to tweak it.

Edging on the coat – no? Better without? It helps define it a bit.

Buttons on cuff – noted!

dbf167601 Apr 2010 3:24 p.m. PST

Looks good nu either the hat is too small or the hair is too "full.". I did not see a sword. Infantry in most armies had them. If the buttons on the cuffs are missing, you need thenm. Most common was three per cuff.

Fifty401 Apr 2010 3:43 p.m. PST

The sword "hanger" will be a separate piece – haven't gotten there yet.

We'll get to the buttons.

Major William Martin RM01 Apr 2010 3:53 p.m. PST

Tony,

Sorry I haven't replied to your PM. My take on the WIP shot:

1) Great!

2) Agree that 3 buttons on the cuff would be a good add

3) Agree that the tricorne needs to be tweaked and larger

4) I think the hair is OK if the tricorne is tweaked

5) I'm fine with the pose, you will NEVER, EVER make every gamer happy with limited poses; some want every figure different like skirmishers, some want the traditional look of marching or march attack, and still others want loading/ready, standing firing and kneeling firing/ready so they can do big battalions and do 3-deep firing lines.

6) I do hope that the plan is still to do an equal number of heads with flat-brimmed or floppy hats for the LoA period, as the rest of the figure is generic enough to work well. Maybe offer the earlier heads as a separate sprue?

7) Not sure what the exact plan is for the convertable command figures, but you have to consider that those using small battalion "Grand Tactical" type rules will be fine with one standard bearer, while those doing bigger battalions (30 to 60 figures) will want two standard bearers to be correct and add the additional color.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Patrick R01 Apr 2010 4:06 p.m. PST

I second the larger band on the tricorne. Make the hats larger and a bit irregular in some cases.

Ditch the band on the coats.

Other than that my only comment would be "GET ON WITH IT !!!"

idontbelieveit01 Apr 2010 4:34 p.m. PST

"7) Not sure what the exact plan is for the convertable command figures, but you have to consider that those using small battalion "Grand Tactical" type rules will be fine with one standard bearer, while those doing bigger battalions (30 to 60 figures) will want two standard bearers to be correct and add the additional color."

I agree with the sentiment but just want to note that I have 3 standard bearers / battalion for my 18 fig french battalions and 2 standard bearers / battalion for both 18 fig and 24 fig allies.

"Big ridge below the knee are the gaiters holding up the stockings."

It's way too big.

Pictors Studio01 Apr 2010 5:42 p.m. PST

Overall I like it. I agree that the ridge below the knee is a bit big and the hat needs to be bigger overall. Cuff buttons would be good too. But I think it looks great. I can't wait for these figures to come out.

I don't know if you can get some wrinkles into the gaiters but if you could that might make it look even better as well.

Given Up01 Apr 2010 6:58 p.m. PST

My comments are:

1. Remove the tape on the hat. We can paint it on, or not, as needed.

2. Remove the raised edge around the coat.

3. 3 buttons on the cuff, please.

4. Simple, clean lines make for good painting.

Looking good!

Jim

a. edit for typos.

rxpjks01 Apr 2010 9:05 p.m. PST

Very much looking forward to these guys. The pose is perfect.I somewhat agree with the others. Remove the raised edge around the coat. 3 buttons on the cuff. The cuff itself and the tricorn still look a little off. The tape on the hat is fine. The one piece casting is a brillant idea.
Thank you for making these.

thehawk01 Apr 2010 9:45 p.m. PST

Well you asked for feedback and criticism, so here goes ….
Overall assessment: I don't think the short, fat guy look is what most people are looking for any more. This guy doesn't look like he has just force marched across Europe to Blenheim.
I'd change the description as this isn't march attack but shouldered arms. March attack is a vertical loaded musket with crook of arm or hand folded over the firing mechanism, supporting the weapon.
TMP link
picture

- tricorn is too small and too rounded
- pockets are too small and jut out too far
- the case on the right hip is too high and too far forward. A thick strap like that wouldn't be needed. At that position and strap length it would soon swing around in front of the figure when marching. It needs to behind the figure more.
- hands are 3 times bigger than they should be
- the little tasselly thing sticking out of the cravat will require cutting off for most armies.
- the musket is too thick
- bayonet and hangar needs to be added
- the legs, shoes etc are too bulky and lack detail
- legs are too short
- hair could be more unkempt and longer
- the face on the figure looks old enough to be a re-enactor!
Not bad as chess set pieces.
That's a fair bit of criticism but having been in the design business, it's the more feedback the better. It really sucks when your pride and joy doesn't sell well.

NoLongerAMember02 Apr 2010 1:35 a.m. PST

Buttons on the cuffs but that is all I would add.

I like the tape on the tricorn as some wore a black tape and helps to show it.

Cardinal Hawkwood02 Apr 2010 2:26 a.m. PST

I agree with much that the hawk says //the cartridge box is a bit odd lower and further to the rear
and I am a two colours to a unit person but then I like two officer and two sergeants and two drummers as well
The cravat as is precludes them as Bavarians , that is for sure..

Fifty402 Apr 2010 4:28 a.m. PST

Thanks for all the comments guys- Tim spent a little time on this last night – see here for the updates:

link

Dave Crowell02 Apr 2010 5:19 a.m. PST

Better and better.

Now any hints on the other body on the sprue?

blucher02 Apr 2010 5:25 a.m. PST

I accept that no of poses is a big ask so I wont bother :)

Is it me or are the legs a bit chunky?

Other than that it looks very good.

dbf167602 Apr 2010 5:48 a.m. PST

I think the cartridge box should be lower. The top should be just below the bottom of the sword belt.

mad monkey 102 Apr 2010 6:38 a.m. PST

He looks like Mel Gibson.

I do the WSS in 15mm….but this might make me upsize.

Fifty402 Apr 2010 6:49 a.m. PST

Another quick WIP as Tim makes changes:
link

Fifty402 Apr 2010 6:53 a.m. PST

Direct image link:
link

Grenzer2102 Apr 2010 6:53 a.m. PST

Looking good! I think that the hat tape should be a little broader all round, as it looks to be a little broader at the front than the back, but that could be camera angle I guess. Overall though, I am loving the thought of having boxes of these. Can't wait to see what you propose for the Officer, Drummer, Ensign and Sergeant.

idontbelieveit02 Apr 2010 6:58 a.m. PST

Better!

The more I think about it the more I'm in the camp of just losing the hat tape. The tricorn brim still looks too tucked up against the side of the hat to me.

Also, the first 2 buttons below the belt are badly out of place – it looks like they should be on the unbuttoned part of the coat with buttonholes they are in still open given the way the coat is sculpted.

Fifty402 Apr 2010 7:10 a.m. PST

Thanks – we'll fix those buttons. You're right.

Someone on our forum asked about the proposed sprue make-up – here it is:
Actually 3 on the sprue – this one (with separate head – everything else attached) – another one in a similar pose (no head) and then the third one will have a separate set of legs – and four torso options to allow you to build any of the following:

1. Another marching pose
2. Command – a couple different types
3. Standard bearer
4. Drummer
5. Some "active" pose troops

So for 2/3 of the box set – assuming 12 sprues of 3 for 36 figures – the only gluing you will do is the sword hanger. For the other 1/3 – you have 12 figures that you can customize into any of the above (or all of the above)

So if you want 2 standard bearers, 2 drummers, 2 command, a sergeant, etc. per unit – you can do that.

If you want 36 guys all marching along you can do it.

And you'll have all the head options – short mitre, tall mitre, bearskin, tricorne, etc. to make a variety of troop types.

Fifty402 Apr 2010 7:10 a.m. PST

Following on the above – if you wanted to have 12 standard bearer or 12 drummers – you could if you REALLY wanted to. ;-)

dbf167602 Apr 2010 7:36 a.m. PST

I would also make the legs a tad longer, but thi may be distortion from the photo.

Fifty402 Apr 2010 7:40 a.m. PST

Hi dbf1676 – I believe that is a perspective issue with the 3D software as you're looking slightly down at him and not straight on.

We'll get 3D prints when the time comes and we can put him on the table next to other figures to get a "true" view before going to mold.

Fifty402 Apr 2010 7:41 a.m. PST

By the way – Tim Barry (sculptor) and I are having a lot of fun with this and seeing your comments in "real time" as we make adjustments.

Dave Crowell02 Apr 2010 7:42 a.m. PST

12 drummers drumming. Can we get a partridge in a pear tree to round out the set?

Nice to see Tim making such quick progress. Thanks for listening to and responding to our comments and criticisms.

I, at least, still remember the days of getting what the sculptor decided to offer, and often as not ordering from a catalog listing that was so helpful as "001:WSS Infantry" or "002:WSS Cavalry"

Fifty402 Apr 2010 7:44 a.m. PST

The separate leg/torsos idea was something I came up with in order to give the command variations on the sprue – but trying to keep this set down to the minimal amount of gluing possible.

I was happy to get the cartridge bag molded directly onto the figure. Separate heads are a necessity to give variation and it is NO fun trying to cut off a head and replace it – so we didn't want to go that route.

The only other piece that needs to go on the single-piece bodies is the sword hanger – which I felt was worthwhile as it can really just out from the body and bring a lot more depth of detail to the unit.

Spiffy Iguana02 Apr 2010 9:52 a.m. PST

If you can fit them on the sprue, I recommend adding the options to construct a few pikemen, that way it can be in a pinch used for the GNW, and if floppy hats are available, for the WotLoA. Just putting open hand of the standard bearer arm would allow it to take either a pike or a flag pole and would extend the use of the set from just the middle and late WSS to the various European wars from 1688 all the way to 1721.

Major William Martin RM02 Apr 2010 10:59 a.m. PST

Tony,

Totally agree with The Spiffy Iguana, but then you know I prefer the earlier period ;-)

1) Lower the cartridge box so that the top is at least even with the bottom of the belt;

2) Fix the already-mentioned problem with the two buttons just below the belt;

3) You mention the "mysterious" 3rd sprue containing one set of legs and 4 torso's for each figure. I'll assume that at least one will be in a somewhat "spiffier" coat with lace, hat with more lace, and sash for an officer; one should be in a coat and with arms that depict some type of "livery" lace for a musician; and the other two could be almost interchangeable as Ensign, Sergeant, etc.? If this is true, then all that would be required for pikemen would be two pairs of arms with open hands, don't worry about providing the pikes, as most will either use synthetic broomstaws, flexible Evergreen plastic rod, or spring for nice steel pikes from NorthStar or similar. Actually, the same is true of standards as well; just provide the finial (if possible with tassels or cravattes, or both) and let the builder use the rod of their choice.

4) Now, assuming again (always dangerous), if you include the option of a floppy hat for the earlier period, then almost any historical pike to musket ratio could be modeled, or all muskets with lots of command, musicians and sergeants. So, 1688 to 1721 is very possible.

5) One suggestion after you actually get these into a mold, either commission a few people (product for labor) to assemble and convert some and write it up, or run a contest like the Numidians to get conversion tips that can be shown on the site and stuffed in the box. Simple things like most effective way to add visible facial hair, create an over-the-shoulder sash (worn by some), plumes for the early French officers and some rankers, how to use low heat to turn up the odd brim of the floppy hat for more variety, adding simple-to-make accessories for the true fanatic (simple haversack or breadbag, etc.).

6) Now, I don't want to ruffle the feathers of the average gamer here, or even the professional painters, but at least some of this should be done by folks with experience working with the old Airfix, Elastolin and Historex plastics. I'm not talking about Peter Wilcox, Shep Paine or Bill Horan here; but, because of their work and the great Historex catalogs with articles and pictures that featured their work, most of us back then could fabricate badges and insignia, convert French Hussars to anything from Western Bronc Busters and Comanches to Alexander's Companion cavalry and Scythian Horse Archers, and generally "re-fabricate" almost anything from basic plastic parts and a bit of melted sprue. And in most cases, this was before Green Stuff. Many, if not most, gamers will be happy to just do a bit of "fiddly" assembly and paint the lads, but there will be quite a few that, after getting familiar with the figures, will want to add more variety or detail.

7) Now, on to the Cavalry!

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Given Up02 Apr 2010 11:32 a.m. PST

One more comment.

Can the musket be moved more toward the guy's neck even if it goes behind the hat? It looks like its about to roll off his shoulder the way it is positioned now.

Can the musket be made perpendicular to the ground rather than slanting off to the soldier's left as it is now. Maybe this is what make's the musket look unstable?

Thanks for asking for comments.

Jim

Fifty402 Apr 2010 11:56 a.m. PST

Hi Jim – I believe the challenge is the tricorne coming out and the musket interfering with head placement. Let me see what he can do.

Spiffy Iguana – a really great idea – we will already have an arm for the flag/half-pike for the Sergeant so that should work well. I'll see what we can do with that.

Hi again Bill – re: floppy hat – what about the lack of the "12 Apostles" – does it matter?

Re: your #3 – it's not a 3rd sprue – it's a 3rd body – or legs in this case – with 4 choices of torso. The torsos are: officer with sash around waist, officer with sash over the shoulder down to hip, plain (to make another line troop), with a drum strap going from right shoulder to left hip (as it's opposite than the cartridge strap.

Excellent ideas all around!

Thank you!
Tony

Major William Martin RM02 Apr 2010 1:59 p.m. PST

Tony,

After 1688 you can make a case for the "major powers" doing away with the "apostles" just as you can make a case for some troops keeping them beyond that date. Since these are generic figures, they will work for just about anything but the "Turkenkreig" and the Franco-Dutch War and Rhineland Campaigns of the 1670's, and I bet more than a few people would still use them ;-)

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Dave Crowell02 Apr 2010 2:43 p.m. PST

As for the interaction of the musket and the hat, this is the reason the "cocked" hat was adopted.

By wearing the hat "cocked" it was possible to shoulder a musket without knocking your hat off.

Now I am not certain when the hat came to be worn "cocked", so I don't know if it is appropriate here or not.

As for the 12 Apostles, if it has taken this long for them to show up in the discussion, don't worry about them.

Give us a hat in the karpus insted. Then we can do Russians. :-)

idontbelieveit02 Apr 2010 6:24 p.m. PST

don't forget the bayonet scabbard

Fifty403 Apr 2010 5:57 a.m. PST

Can anyone tell me long were the pikes in this later period?

Major William Martin RM03 Apr 2010 9:28 a.m. PST

Tony,

It can vary based on the nationality and circumstances. Most references I've seen specify 4.5 to 5 meters, but there are also many anectdotal references to pikes being cut down to closer to 2.5 to 3.5 meters and used more like a close-in boar spear, especially in sieges, assaults and defensive works. That was why I suggested not taking up sprue space with pikes; most gamers will replace them with something else anyways and you won't please everybody. Pike heads would be a nice touch, hollowed out to take about a 1/16th or 2mm shaft.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Major William Martin RM03 Apr 2010 9:42 a.m. PST

Tony,

Since these figures are supposed to be as generic as possible, be careful on the placement of the bayonet scabbard. I don't think most people will want to glue it on (too fiddly), but artistic references (regardless of regulations) show the bayonet scabbard in many positions. I've seen it behind the cartridge box on the right, behind on either hip, attached to the hanger for the sword (similar to later SYW arrangements), and either attached to or shoved in the belt in front slightly to the left side. The most common depiction, at least early in the period, seems to be the front carry to the left, but you can find both reg's and other artwork that refute this for almost every army.

I would probably "vote" for either a separate bayonet scabbard or the front carry, but other opinions will differ.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

Fifty403 Apr 2010 4:51 p.m. PST

I was going to see if the bayonet scabbard could be part of the sword hanger – and then if someone wants to they can clip it off and re-position.

So 5m pikes would be about 89mm in 1/56 – or 3.5" – that about right? I have another "cunning" plan for those.

Another question – the standards in the references I've seen all seem to be on fairly short poles?

Thanks again!
Tony

fantail05 Apr 2010 12:31 p.m. PST

Looking really good and I think it is great that you are listening to the publics feedback. My only comments would be whether or not you need to included the actual pike on the frame at all, as some/many people might like to use wire/metal/broom bristles or whatever in which case a pike carrying arm would be enough.
A Karpus head would be nice aswell, as Dave says. This could create a black market in head swapping.
As for the figures themselves my only issue is that from behind the new large cuffs look alittle bit like he has his hand deep in a pop corn tub with that large flat area from the actual arm itself to the edge of the cuff. Not sure what you can do about because of casting issues etc.
Anyway, keep up the good work.
Andrew

Marc the plastics fan06 Apr 2010 1:58 a.m. PST

I like hat lace as I find a moulded line easier to paint consistently.

Why not make the hats separate, and mould the tricorn from the top and bottom?

And thinner is better – Minden have set a new standard for 7YW that could be usefully copied here.

Hazkal07 Apr 2010 1:55 a.m. PST

You're making it very hard to resist doing a small Imagi-nation with these.

*Shakes fist*

I like the sound of being able to make a large proportion of "command" models, and all of the large number of options you want to put on the frames.

10thFoot07 Apr 2010 2:06 a.m. PST

The key here is figure variety. Get a load of these in a line and they are going to look like clones. Head variants, hat variants, slightly different poses.

Get near this, and you are talking:

link
link
link

Dave Crowell07 Apr 2010 4:21 a.m. PST

The "clone" effect is actually desirable for WSS. This was a period of formal drill.

For C18 armies I actually prefer few poses and more consistancy in line. Armies, not skirmish units. Massed ranks moving in concert.

Marc the plastics fan07 Apr 2010 5:05 a.m. PST

For Imagi-Nation armies, the clone look matches the Grant/Young look.

Check out the latest Battlegames to see CG's new Minden etc armies – they just have no magic anymore, looking like every other wargames oicture now. I miss the OSW pics of Staddens etc.

So WF, please carry on with the project. Some different faces are always nice, but I do not need muskets and arms waving all other the place. Thanks

Major William Martin RM07 Apr 2010 5:47 a.m. PST

With all due respect to 10thFoot (and there are many gamers who will agree with him), in MOST gamer's opinions, this period (1680 to 1720) is best represented by solid, drilled ranks. A bit of animation for an officer, ensign or sergeant if you like to keep the lads steady, but otherwise solid steady ranks.

Call it "OSW", call it a mythical concept based on popular battle paintings and early wargaming books, or just call it old fashioned and boring. It is still what many people, including non-gamers, think of when they think of this period, perhaps influenced by films like "Barry Lyndon" as much as anything. So I say "carry on" to Tony and company. The last thing we want at this stage is to throw out all the designs and effort and start over.

And Dave is right, the "formed" battalion with it's massed musketry was still in it's infancy at this time and formal drill was both important to proper function and enforced, often brutally by today's standards. If you're going to start doing rankers running and waving about all "willy-nilly" then they should be skirmisher's, special assault troops or routing.

Bill
Sir William the Aged
warsoflouisxiv.blogspot.com

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