"Hiring Sculptors" Topic

Over lunch today I was casually discussing starting a miniatures line with a coworker, talking (in pirely hypothetical terms) about buying some spin casters and putting out a free game and selling miniatures for it. And of course, I don't have the money for something like that.

My boss, who was sitting there with us, has that kind of money. And he got very interested in what I was saying, asking me all kinds of questions. Now he wants me to write up a business plan and proposal.

Um. Okay.

So most of this I can handle just fine. I've written up plenty of proposals in the past. I can price spin casters and materials, packaging costs, calculate necessary storage area, per unit costs, blah blah blah.

But me, I cannot figure out how to price sculpting. I can't even figure out how to find sculptors. The guys I can find on the 'net advertising on forums are…well, not the quality level I would insist on. I don't want to hire amateurs looking for their first gig, because any new line that gets launched needs to have the ability to draw attention to itself.

I'm hearing unsourced, unspecific numbers from "$200" to "$2000," and that's a pretty big range. I mean that's 1 to 10 figures for 2k. Since a line will need to launch with at least (by my calculations) 25 sculpts (but I'd like to start with 35 or so), that gives me a start-up cost range of $5k to $70k. That's way too big a range for me to go to my boss with.

So here's my question: How does one find the real professional sculptors and get quotes from them? I know how to find the BIGGEST names in the industry, they have their own lines (I'm thinking Copplestone, Kev White, Werner Klocke). But If I want to hire Jason Wiebe or Matt Gubsur…you know, guys who aren't celebrities but do good, solid work…how do I find them? How do I find out what they expect to be paid without, you know, bothering them?

I don't want to be like "Hey, this project that may not happen may be hiring a sculptor and we might go with you, how much would you charge roughly for a 28mm figure of unspecified design?" Or is that really how its done in this industry? Because to me, that seems like a golden rule violation (I sure wouldn't want someone pestering me to take a sample to find out the industry standards).

There has to be a better way to get this information than running all over pestering people. Someone here on these forums has experience doing this, commissioning sculpts, and is willing to share this info. Right?

Edit to add: You know what? I just realized what the problem is. Miniatures sculptors, unlike every other type of creative professional I've ever dealt with, don't have agents. They need agents. Some of you excellent-at-networking members of the community have failed to capitalize on your social skills to get yourself your 10-15% That's the problem.

You could do worse than starting with the Yahoo sculpting group

link

Ask your questions and get some ideas on costs and abilities of the people there, then make your mind up.

Also a number of wargaming forums are inhabited by people who sculpt, take your pick.

I'm guessing your boss is happy not to see a return on his money for about 10 years or so?
Not wishing to sound like a wet blanket, but most miniature companies find it a struggle to make a very basic living for one or two people. I can't see that it's going to be of much interest to someone who's looking at it as an investment.

I know about that list, but I can't make heads or tails of how yahoo groups works, and it's all chaff. Way too much noise and crap to sort through to find any useful information there. I can't even begin to express how much I hate Yahoo groups. How are you even supposed to follow a thread? I can't figure it out.

Also, this is not how professionals behave. This is obnoxiously informal. These people, if they aren't going to have agents, should at the very least have websites. It's 2010. How hard is to set up a website?

I mean christ, am I going to have spend months tracking these people down and putting together a contact list and quotes just to have to go through it all over again when I actually want to get commissions?

Sometimes I love the fan-driven nature of this hobby. Other times I want to beat my head (somebody's head at least) against a wall at the appalling lack of professionalism everywhere.

Again: Agents! Someone needs to get on that. It makes life easier for manufacturers, and means more money, less down time for sculptors.

Seriously man, there's a thread on that Yahoo group from February where someone asks what current sculpting rates are, and the best answer is…"Same as they were 7 years ago."

::THROWS SHOE AT FORUM::

USELESS!

Woodwose: Just between you and me, most miniatures companies are incompetently run and have self-defeating marketing goals. Poor customer service, little more than word of mouth advertising, lack of business plan, etc.

But yeah, we're a small company with what's practically a turn-key business. We make half a million a year and work three days out of the week, we're looking for something fun and interesting to fill the other two days, and while we'd want to grow it into something healthy (like Privateer Press size, not GW size), we can take our time. It took us ten years to build our first business, we can take ten years to build another one. (And honestly, I think we could be successful within 5 years, assuming my ideas aren't naff, and I think I have good ideas).

It does basically come down to people emailing sculptors and saying 'I want XYZ – how much?'.
It's a long way from ideal – I spend a lot of time answering emails like that.
But you will get a wide range of quotes, unless you can be a bit more specific. For one thing, you don't even specify the scale you're looking for. I assume 28mm, from the names you mentioned, but even then the style and detail can alter the price dramatically.
I've done 28mm from £100.00 GBP a figure to £400.00 GBP a figure – all depending of what was required for the job.
So I'd advised coming up with a proposal for a set number of figures, specify the size and style, and detail level – poses, single piece or multi-part.
This will let sculptors know you are seriously interested, and not just taking a chance.

But yeah, agents would be good! :)

Michael Lovejoy

michaellovejoy.com

To find freelance sculptors, placing a news story on TMP or simply a posting, as you have done, is a good start.

Also look at Frothersunite forums who have a number of sculptors and post a wanted ad there.

I know that Richard Ansell who sculpts for Minden, etc is looking for work, Kev White does some freelance stuff, etc etc.

Oh, and you'll find that a lot of the smaller miniatures companies are quite competently run they just want to stay a small, one man business and have no plans for taking over the gaming world… :-)

Mike

Heh, if I thought it was remotely feasible I would hire Kev White to do the entire line. I love his stuff to a level that is almost unnatural, and he'd be perfect for what I have in mind.

And your right, I shouldn't say incompetently run. Much like the industry I'm in, there are a lot of guys whose business only supports themselves because that's all it needs to do and they have no more ambition than that. And that's cool.

If I had an agent taking 10% then I'd have to put my prices up 10% not to go bust, which would mean I'd lose the work to someone cheaper!

Woodwose, I would like to talk to you about some possible work, could you PM me please?

Cheers, Bob.

I'm not a supporting member, so unfortunately I can't!
However you'll find my email address on my webpage:-

homepage.ntlworld.com/woodwose

Woodwose: That's really not what happens with agents. You get more work and you also have more time to work, because your agent is keeping people from bugging you about availability and dealing with things like making sure you get paid on time every time. You wouldn't have to take time negiotiating with Bob there, figuring out what your schedule is, etc.

Plus a good agent knows what you want to be working on and what manufacturers are looking for, so rather than taking what jobs may come, you're getting the kind of work you want to do.

Now, if agents become widespread in the industry (and they'll tend to), then sculptor rates will tend to go up, since a lot of the amateurs who undercut the professionals will get frozen out. The manufacturers will tend to go with agented sculptors for the same reason publishers prefer to work with agented writers, because agents serve as pre-screener. After all, no agent is going to represent a sculptor they don't think is sellable. But that's a win for sculptors everywhere. I mean, obviously no mini sculptor will ever be in these sorts of realms, but think about how many of the highest paid people around have agents. Pro athletes, actors, directors, arena filling musicians, etc. Agents are a win/win for both product producers and creative freelancers. They really only screw talented amateurs who refuse to work with agents.

And Richard, do you realize that when I google your name (specifically "richard ansell sculptor," I get some random blogs and articles, none of which seems to have been put up by you. I clicked the first ten links on that google page and found samples of five or six pieces that you *might* have done, assuming nobody misattributed things to you -- and not all of its is painted to a quality that you want it representing your work (and given the wide variance in quality of sculpting, some of it was definitely not yours or very old work).

What I didn't find was a gallery of your work. That's not a slam or anything, I'm not taking you to task for that. I just want to point out that's the industry standard, and that sculptors with easy to find galleries of their work are the exception, not the rule.

That just seems very quaint to me. It's like miniature manufacturers who don't have photos of their product on their webpage.

Sadly living on a basic wage doesn't allow me hire painters, webpage designers or anything other than the free site I get from may isp. If I ever reach a point where I manage to earn more than about £50.00 GBP a day, it might just happen but after 10 years at this game I doubt it will.
Unfortunately a lot of people seem to draw the line at £150.00 GBP a figure and the only way to hold on to the client base I have is to add even more detail which of course slows the process down even more meaning a lower hourly rate. Add in the time I spend trying to research the subject and make sure I get the details right (which I don't even charge for) and it puts me well below the breadline.
I realise I put far too much work in my figures and should turn them out in half the time to make a profit, but I also know the criticism I would receive if I did.
I doesn't help when I see people complaining about the price of figures when I know they earn far more than me.
Still I guess I'm just quaint (along with a good few other sculptors I know)

I can think of 3 who are easy enough to get the attention of on forums (you have Richard Ansell already and Paul Hicks and Kev White are pretty active online too).

I love the work of all of these guys. I will say that I will splash out on well made sculpt by a good sculptor and pass over many of the poor ones even if the price is better so it might be worth the extra money to use them.

I know my Black Adder and Baldrick from Richard fetch a good price on ebay (although I am not selling them!) and I am looking to focus my other purchases in WWI on figures that go well with them.

I don't believe I have ever been contacted by someone finding my website. Of course, I did the web design myself without learning how to do it properly using freeware and clipart. I couldn't decide if I liked the rotating flaming skulls theme or the singing puppies theme best, so I used elements from both.

Someday I will read my HTML for Dummies book and do it again, but I'm still trying to master macro photography and tutorial writing.

According to some knowledgeable individuals on the Frothers sculptors forum, $300 USD is about the base rate for a high-quality sculpt, or higher ($400, $500+) if you want a better/more well-known sculptor such as Kev White or Tre Manor.

I know I would take the job for $300/mini. You would be pretty safe in expecting to spend $300-400 or $300-500 per mini, and if you did spend that, and spent it well, you could buy yourself some good quality sculpts.

Kev White has information about sculpting and the miniatures business in the Hasslefree Forum, IIRC. I pay $300-350 per figure, the more complex the more expensive as well. I have been quoted as much as $500 USD per figure from a very well known American sculptor. Note that you can often get blanks made, which reduces the costs substantially provided you are doing variants of similar uniforms.

You might remind your boss of the old adage that the way "to earn a million dollars in the miniatures business is to invest two million." :-)

I've had quite a few customers who've found me through my website, so I think it's worth having.

Although I'm in agreement with you, Woodwose – sculpting is very badly paid; all the website design time and photography eats into sculpting time, and reduces the wage further. And my photography is rubbish!

I love sculpting – but I reckon I'd have more money if I spent my days saying 'Do you want fries with that?' :)

I appreciate what Gailbraithe says about agents – but I think the reason there aren't agents in this business is that 10% of a mini sculptor's earnings is not really worth having; they'll stick with actors and sportspeople. That's where the money is.

Michael Lovejoy

michaellovejoy.com

I spent 1000$ US on sculpts, I guess I got ripped off….

I hope someone who is a good networker is reading this. Richard is right, it is expensive and time-consuming to set up and high quality website.

But if someone wanted to make some extra money every month, look at what it would cost them: The cost of maintaining a website, getting some photography done (as someone looking to hire sculptors, I'd rather see greens than painted minis, since a paint job can hide both what's good and bad about a sculpt), and the time it takes to schmooze. If you're *already* the sort of person who both knows how to get a hold of people in the industry, and goes to conventions and so on, then you could be capitalizing on this right now. And seriously, the investment on photography is only $1,000 USD or so, and that's assuming a NICE digital camera and a lighting kit, white box, etc.

Michael is right that there isn't a *lot* of money in it. But no agent represents one client, not if they are serious. I mean the average novelist doesn't make squat, probably no more than the average sculptor. You can sell a novel, which takes six months to write, for under $5k. Yet all professional writers have agents. That's because their agents represent ten or twenty clients each, maybe more, and 10% of the commission rates of 20 sculptors, that adds up. If you get ten sculptors $500 USD of work every month, that's $500 USD in your pocket for what could *easily* be a par-time, after hours kind of job.

Again, someone better be paying attention, because I'm spelling out how to capitalize on your hobby despite a total lack of artistic talent or desire to run a production-oriented business. This is a great people-person business opportunity.

I would do it but I have the patience and temperament of bull on methamphetamine, and would probably end up pulling my hair out in fistfuls. Also, I'm a lousy networker (watch, in two days I'll have forgotten who I was talking to about this). I already kind of want to yell at SimonF for not including any contact information or giving me anyway of identifying him. He'll take a job for $300, but who is he, what can he do? I don't know! Sell yourself man!

But okay, so I now know the going rate is about $400/mini (averaging out) for a quality 28mm. Since I want top of the line, I'm looking probably more at $500/mini. That's way more plausible than I was thinking (having heard silly things like $2,000 USD for a top of the line sculpt), and gives me a nice starting figure of about $12,500 for a starting line of 25 miniatures.

If you want top of the line Fantasy greens you'll be be paying a damn sight more than $500 USD I'm afraid. Historicals go for peanuts by comparison but I guess much of that is driven by the price the public are prepared to pay for the two different types of figures. I keep thinking I'd be better off switching to fantasy as I could make a far better living doing it, but I persevere with historicals because that's what interests me.
With the best will in the world no "agent" is going to pull in work for their stable of 10 sculptors, it doesn't work like that. People want to hire a particular sculptor not just "someone" out of a bunch of ten and that particular sculptor doesn't really need an agent do they?
I'm afraid your agent idea sounds about as realistic as the old joke "let's start a Wargames company because it'll make us loads of money" that is always good for a laugh at any gathering of people in the business.

The rate for toy work is much higher than the gaming hobby mostly because the requirements of the latter are relatively lax. My last piece for Hasbro was a 15mm figure for $1,350. So $2,000 for a 28mm figure doesn't strike me as absurd, it depends how demanding you are and what the piece is like.

Given a completely competent sculptor, of which there seem to be few working below 54mm, it's really a matter of how much time you want put in on the sculpt. There is a basic minimum which is quite low and as you expand the time exponentially you get a more sophisticated piece but one fewer people really appreciate. Historical figure sculpting fees are lower because there is usually a good deal of redundancy in both the workup and the sculpting.

To a large degree, I believe Gailbraithe is also approaching the hobby market with preconcieved ideas brought over from another industry.

Not that bringing ideas from other industries are a bad idea. I'm sure there are things various companies can do better in with regards to improving their public relations or alternately publicity. However, all these ideas have to be tempered by what the hobby/wargaming industry will allow/bear.

Sure, agents are a great idea when it comes to representing actors, sports personalities, writers, etc. But by and large, these are larger industries with a larger number of artists to represent and, more than likely attracting larger paypackets with them. It shouldn't be too difficult to gather together a large stable of clients in those industries to be able to generate a relatively decent income. Also, in the industries you have mentioned, agents are a matter of practice and expected. This is not the case in the gaming industry.

As is, the margins in the hobby/wargaming industry, from what I have seen are small enough, I don't think it will tolerate a middleman which really offer not much to the creative or production process.

Gailbraithe, you suggest one of the benefits of running an agent is to network as well as to weed out trollers and go through the negotiation process. True, but to some degree, this could be done cheaper with other auxilliary help. Networking is something a well known sculptor would probably be doing already anyway. Weeding out enquiries etc? That could be done cheaper with a secretary part time. And this could be done without the need to sacrifice a percentage of your income.

Also, from what I have seen, quite a number of gaming companies are run on a part time basis. Why? Partly because it is a hobby and done for the love. But also because the funds do not or are not able to fully fund a living. While agents will probably be willing to network with the larger companies, will they even look at smaller operations? Or are you proposing cutting the smaller companies out of the equation when it comes to getting sculptors?

As far as finding sculptors. I actually didn't think it was that difficult trying to contact sculptors. Granted, I didn't aim for the big names on my first outings. But neither did I go for rank amateurs. I have been in the process of gathering greens in the hope of opening my own webstore over the last 18 monts. In tha time period, without trying, I have come across some really good sculptors. And getting contact to bigger names wasn't too difficult. Whether they were interested in doing the work was a different story. Following the names you listed, I have Matt Gubser doing some work for me at the moment and didn't have any problems locating his contact details.

As for pricing, part of the problem about getting an idea of quotes is
1] what the public is willing to pay. Wargaming is part of the gamers discretionary budget, and in many cases, a lot of gamers are loathe to pay too much or their toy soldiers.

2] sculptors work is not standardised. We are talking pieces of art here. Do you know any artists that follows union or standardized rates? sculptors will charge whatever they can get for their work.

while it's great to hear that you guys are planning another venture into the gaming industry, some of your frustration probably arises from an eagerness to get the ball rolling. But spend sometime and do a little research. It isn't as difficult are you protray getting in contact with various sculptors.

An agent would also protect to some degree the customer from, well how do put this , all those sorts of sculptor's creative lifestyle things that go on, or not, as the case maybe..A pretty nifty idea there G.

"That could be done cheaper with a secretary part time. And this could be done without the need to sacrifice a percentage of your income."

Dude, no offense, but I don't think you begin to understand even the most basic elements of economics. There is absolutely no way that anyone gets a secretary for cheaper than an agent unless they are making hundreds of thousands a year.

Even a *very* poorly paid secretary is going to want at least $18k/year. You have to be making $180k/year before that is cheaper than the 10% an agent takes. If you want a secretary (or if we're going to step out of the 60's, a personal assistant), that is actually competent, you're talking at least $30-45k a year.

And yes, that wage comes out of the sculptors income. And can be measured as a percentage. An employee is always going to cost you more than an agent.

The bottom line is where will the extra money for the agent come from? Not the sculptor because there is barely enough money it it as it is and if they are like me they're already working to capacity to make ends meet so the offer of more work with an agents cut out of it doesn't solve anything. It would actually require me to do 11% more work to earn the same as I do now! Not the figure company because most of those are run as a hobby and profits are marginal at best and they'll just find a cheaper sculptor. That leaves the customer, I wonder how people would feel about a price increase? Don't you think they'd just find a cheaper source of figures?

"The bottom line is where will the extra money for the agent come from?"

Market efficiency. I think what you aren't understanding is that agents actually do something that is of real market value. They are not leeches or parasites. The "extra money" comes from the ability of the agent to capitalize on a skill set.

The percentage of income taken from artists by agents is offset by the ability of agents to earn artists greater income. If your income increases 150% as a result of an agent, then even after his cut you're earning 135% of what you were without an agent.

The extra expense of sculptors with representation is offset for producers by externalizing the costs of finding and developing talent. The list of sculptors that it took Lupus 18 months to put together I could get with one phone call if the industry had agents. That gives me a year and half in which I could be making money instead of doing zero-profit head-hunting. The higher cost to me of using sculptors with representation is directly saved by me in terms of hours I don't have to spend looking for artists.

I mean, if I can't come back to my boss with a proposal in less than a year and half, then its likely he'll no longer be interested. One has to wonder how many jobs for sculptors are never created because of potential clients getting burned out on trying to find talent?

The cost to customers is negligible, because as noted, the producer pays either way. With the bigger companies, customers are already paying for the service agents provide -- any company Privater Press's size or larger has someone on staff who does everything an agent does, except work to get sculptors the highest price their work can fetch. Instead, they seek to get the highest quality work for the lower possible price.

Not having representation in the industry only serves those companies who are big enough to afford to have a person on staff who can develop and maintain a talent pool. It hurts sculptors the most, does nothing to benefit customers, and creates needless inefficiency in the industry that serves as a barrier to small but seriously intentioned start-ups.

Also, dude, don't give me that "I'd have to do 11% more work/I'm barely making ends meet" guff. I read your comments in the other thread. You could be making more money, you have made a choice to produce stuff that isn't what the market is demanding. Looking at your stuff, I know you're up to the demands of the fantasy lines put out by Privateer Press. You could do this unit: link That's well within the skill level I've seen demonstrated in your work. That kind of work sells better, thus it pays better. If you aren't getting that kind of work, it's probably because you're not going after it, and are instead going after the lower-paying historical stuff you want to do.

Which is cool and all, but you're not actually a professional in that case. You're a very talented dilettante who is barely getting by on his hobby. You have to be a bit more mercenary and be going after (at least some of) the work that pays if you want to complain to me about making ends meet. I have no sympathy for artistes who must remain pure and true to their muses. You want to be an artiste, you can starve. That's what artistes do. It's noble. Suffering for your art. You want to make a living as a professional sculptor, then you have to be willing to take the occasional commission of steampunk rocketmen and necro-orks on doom skateboards, or whatever the kids want this week.

If I was "a professional" by your terms, I wouldn't be making wargames figures full stop. Your business plan actually relays on "unprofessionals". All these sculptors you intend to use are all being unprofessional by choosing to sculpt miniatures when they could easily make more money with their talents in other fields! As Tom says, you can make far more money in the toy industry, even your commissions for steampunk rocketmen and necro-orks would be insignificant by comparison.
The whole of the wargames "industry" is based on the premise of people running businesses on a shoesting, working for peanuts and producing figures for prices that would not be cost effective for a real business.
And you're intending to convince your boss to lend you money to start a business where everyone can happily undercut you because they're effectively working in a third world economy
From a business point of view it would be very unprofessional to consider a miniatures company as a valid investment.
Still, have fun spending his money ;-)

"Market efficiency. I think what you aren't understanding is that agents actually do something that is of real market value."

Well let's agree they ‘can and often' do something that is of real value. It depends on the client and the contractor.

The problem with the figure hobby is the demand for quality is overwhelmed by the economics of small scale production. If a large toy company is making a half million of a figure the difference between $300 USD or $3,000 is more than compensated by getting the job done right and on time. When you are only hoping to sell 5,000 not so much and at 500, not at all.

When Hasbro's design studio was here in Cincinnati they would sometimes bring me a job first thing in the morning to make the best of it I could by 3:00 PM and pay a thousand dollars. The model would just be for passing around a meeting to help the executives come to a decision, for a company that size it was well worth it.

The miniatures hobby is quite different. Nearly all the sculptors I know of are self-taught, they are really fan-artists. Many are quite good at doing a specific thing they have practiced a lot but don't have much range or control. This is usually good enough for their customers.

To put it another way, what makes a figure sell, what gives it quality is for most people more to do with what it is than with how well it's made, the design, the idea, rather than the finish or technique. If you have a design for a steam-punk Princess Mildred's own Stickleback Grenadier you can have a mediocre sculptor do it for $300 USD or an excellent one for $2,000 but the excellent sculpt is unlikely to get you enough more sales to make up the $1,700 difference. An agency is not going to change that.

To put it another way, what makes a figure sell, what gives it quality is for most people more to do with what it is than with how well it's made, the design, the idea, rather than the finish or technique. If you have a design for a steam-punk Princess Mildred's own Stickleback Grenadier you can have a mediocre sculptor do it for $300.00 USD USD or an excellent one for $2,000 but the excellent sculpt is unlikely to get you enough more sales to make up the $1,700 difference. An agency is not going to change that.

Absolutely! What's more if the final mediocre figure is 10 cents cheaper it'll outsell the better one.
Subject matter is everything, followed by price, then compatibility and finally by quality.

I'm still stumped by the fact that it isn't difficult to find sculptors in my opinion, all it requires is a little research and asking around.

There are very few working sculptors in the wargames "industry" – the majority of non sculptor-owned companies are supplied by no more than 10 different sculptors. Martin Baker who does a lot of work for me also works for Magister Militum, Ground Zero, Black Cat Bases, Ironclad, Baccus, etc, etc ,etc

Mike

Yes but I think he's coming at this from the fantasy end of the market where there are umpteen companies with comparatively small ranges of figures. TMP isn't really the place to go for that side of things. Frothers, CMoN, LAF etc would be my first call to find sculptors for that genre.
Plenty of sculptors hang around there and Frothers even has a list of Sculptors for hire. I'm surprised someone with enough interest to start a company making fantasy figures wouldn't have known of those forums already.

I already kind of want to yell at SimonF for not including any contact information or giving me anyway of identifying him. He'll take a job for $300, but who is he, what can he do? I don't know! Sell yourself man!

I didn't give contact info because I'm not really looking for work right now. I've got a few jobs lined up already for when I'm off school and I'm not amazing yet at figuring out how much time everything is going to take so I'm sort of playing it safe.

That said, if you're not on a tight time schedule, check out my gallery and feel free to send me an email. I might want to work for you if you're doing something I find interesting.
link
sfraser0 at hotmail dot com

Notice: For those sculptors who worry about the cost of maintaining a website, sites like deviantart or carbonmade.com offer free/cheap, visually attractive galleries, and you can include info about yourself as well.

I think you guys are looking at things from a different perspective. You're considering things from the historical wargames side of the hobby, which is (exactly as you say) a black hole in which one can throw one's money and never return a profit.

But I have no intention of doing any kind of business where we're only selling 500 of a miniature. That's chump change, and would be a waste of my time. I also have zero interest in historical wargames.

The model I'm looking at is more like Privateer Press, whom I use to work for. That's a company with 30+ employees that sells tens of thousands of units of its miniatures. My goal would be to get our line to that level of sales within about 5 years, which is entirely do-able (Privateer did it, and the people running that company don't know anything I don't).

It's not doable if you're targeting the historicals market, because historical players don't care about quality sculpts and will, as Richard points out, buy a crappy mini if it's 10 cents less. But screw them, that's chasing after the bottom of the barrel. You're going after the cheapest players and the smallest part of the market. It's a total loser of a business strategy.

Look at who the biggest names in the business are. Notice that the most successful companies also have the most expensive models. If the market really was as you guys suggest, then Ground Zero Games would completely outsell Games Workshop. If Richard was right about the 10 cent cheaper model outselling the more expensive one, people would be buying Black Hat's Space Marines and not GW's Space Marines. But that's not what happens.

The fact if the matter is that most of the miniatures buying public is like me, and wouldn't touch GZG minis with a ten foot pole. . Instead I spend almost all of my gaming budget on models that cost five to ten times what GZG models cost. And surprise surprise, the majority of my collection comes from the big name producers -- because I'm the typical buyer, not the guy who is willing to settle for crap miniatures that cost a buck each. And the rest of my collection? Miniatures from sculptor owned studios that cost even more per unit.

Like Mike, I've never bought anything from your company, and looking at your catalog, I'm not likely to in the near future…mostly because the stuff you sell doesn't match the quality level I want on my table. You have a very few pieces I might settle for because no one else is producing anything like it -- and the very things you sell I'd be most interested in, like your Martian Celaphods, you've made useless to me by publishing in 18mm. What the hell is 18mm? Who does that? It's like your just throwing money away.

I would totally be interested in Prussian Clockwork Soldiers, if they were of the same scale and quality as my other steampunk miniatures (which are all Warmachine). But in 18mm, they're too small for me to waste my money on. So instead, I'm going to buy Warmachine minis from Privateer Press that cost three times what an equivalent number of troops from you cost.

And you can tell yourself that the buying market isn't like me, that I'm the exception not the rule, but again PP is 30+ people doing millions in sales, and you're one guy who is doing it as a hobby. It's easy to blame the industry and say it's just the way things are, but the hard truth is that either you don't know how to make your business successful or you don't want to be successful.

I could easily list the things you're doing wrong:
1) Your website is dull and amateurish.
2) Your books are totally 80's bargain basement production quality.
3) Your miniatures look cheap and dated.

You're clearly trying to save money, but it's a losing strategy. You have to spend money to make money. When the company I work for started out, there was one other company that did what we do. They had the exact same set of beliefs that you guys have, believing that the hot rod collector/restoration market was dominated by hobby producers because that was all it could support. When we first started showing up at car shows, they actually came over to our booth and told us that we needed to lower our prices -- which were three times theirs -- and told us we were wasting our money on our far fancier and more professional looking stands and displays. Flash forward 15 years, and those guys are out of business. We drove them under, stole all their sales, and did it while charging three times what they charge. Our product was better, and better beats cheaper almost every time. This is especially true in small niche hobby markets.

That's what is keeping you from being bigger. Not subject matter (seriously, no one can tell me that there was a huge demand for steam-powered robot wargames before Privateer Press invented that market), not the hobby like nature of the industry. Its your own lack of professionalism that is keeping your sales at amateur levels. Harsh, but that's the truth.

Okay, actually, that slam on your website was uncalled for. Compared to Privateer Press or Games Workshop, your website is a bit amatuerish, but compared to the standards of the hobby, it's not that bad. At least you actually have photos of your models. Some companies, like GZG, are apparently so adverse to making sales they won't even show people what they are selling.

Those seriously, you'd greatly increase your own sales if you had painted examples of all your minis readily viewable while browsing your catalog.

PS this has turned into a very interesting topic.

Tom, I'd really like to know your final estimation of whether agents could work for the "average" professional, full-time sculptor working for the "average" miniature company or companies.

Looking at it in very simple terms and based on what Gailbraithe has said, it seems to me that agents could do a lot for sculptors in terms of finding the *right* work for them and getting them decently paid for it. I get the impression that it could work out overall.

On the other hand, I'm quite sure that sculptors don't *need* agents. We might be better off with them, but the volume of work and the number of clients is manageable for most of us, and most companies can easily get in contact with the few sculptors they are likely to need, and get to know them well – since there are relatively few sculptors working at a truly professional level.

PPS Mr Meier: you shouldn't refer to most sculptors as fan artists. I admit I am self-taught, and I'm far from the level where time put in is the only indicator of final quality, but "fan-art" calls up images of poorly-drawn anime characters. Like many part-time sculptors, I'm serious about the work, even if I'm not good enough to work for toy companies that demand full control of the medium.
The term "fan-art" just has negative implications that you probably don't want to send out. Even though some fan art is great, "fan art" has a reputation for being terrible.
(To be fair, many sculptors are just sculpting characters from movies et cetera, and I've been guilty of that myself…)

@Gailbraithe, Re: your last comments about how most of the market is "chump change". That's a very interesting point and, I think, a very valid one. It reflects the fact that most of us really *aren't* in it for the money, and most companies don't care about appealing to the mainstream.

18mm Cephalopods are certain not to be as popular as GW space marines, but that was never the intent. I guess you could say that even though they were technically designed and produced with the goal of making money….. the goal isn't actually to make money. It's to get paid for doing something you love.

By coming into this industry with a mercenary attitude, with a willingness to look at what the people want and give it to them, rather than serving your own interests, and to put up an investment that is comparable to what's done in other industries, I'm sure you can be quite successful, in both money and popularity. It's just not commonly done, because that's not the common attitude nor is that what minis companies are commonly after.

That's a very good point Simon. I don't want to come off like I'm just crapping on Mike and dissing his product.

My point is really just this: Most people in this industry aren't making slim profits that they can "get by" on because that's all the market can support. If Mike is happy doing what he's doing and making the money he's making, then that's fine. But the argument that because most guys in the industry are doing the level of business Mike is doing that there is no possibility of doing better is based on a lot of faulty premises.

The mistake isn't thinking you can make money in this industry. The mistake is thinking you can make money in this industry without having a serious, professional attitude, a realistic business plan and marketing strategy, and a lot of drive and ambition to win out.

@Gailbraithe… You bring up a very good point. It isn't that some of us don't want to do better, its usually that we do not know how.

I have struggled with the Armies of Arcana line since I purchased it 1.5 years ago. Between unforseen delays in changing casters and the dificulty in launching new products and getting them market exposure I admit I am no expert at owning a gaming company.

So if you have any knowledge to share please do so. I for one am not to proud to ask for help and have from others I know in this industry…

Do you own Terrain Warehouse UK? Or do you own the rights to publish a wargame called "Armies of Arcadia?" I'm trying to figure out what it is you actually own here.

Why don't you PM and tell me what it is you have and what you want to do.

I can tell you right now that if your hope is to be successful with a classic D&D fantasy type wargame, then prepare yourself for disappointment. You can't compete with Games Workshop. Not with their Lord of the Rings line. No marketing strategy you can come up with will overcome the edge that three insanely popular movies gives them with the youngest gamers, the ones who spend the most and make you a success. And the 18-34 gamer market is so over that.

I have to ask why you've chosen TMP which is probably the least suited to your needs? If you look at the the posts here you'll notice that by far the majority are historical miniature related. Surely one of the other forums which are more fantasy orientated would give you access to the sculptors you are looking for and also a more likely target audience. As I've said before Frothers has a long list of sculptors advertising their services and plenty of the better known ones visit there regularly link
Perhaps you should look at what the bigger fantasy companies are moving over to and start off with plastics?

Gailbraithe's spot on, there is a huge difference between the historical market and the fantasy/SF market – historical buyers are notoriously tight-fisted, and manufacturers have to allow for that when setting pricing. This in turn affects how much they can pay sculptors; it then affects the quality the sculptors will put out. I have to set a time limit on my sculpting – if a 28mm figure is only going to net me £120, then it's going to get no more than 15 hours of my time. Even at that, I'm only making burger-flipping money.

But with a higher paying commission, I put in more time, and the sculpt quality is markedly improved.

So on top of all the historical work I do for companies, I'm slowly developing my own range of figures – which will take time, but show off my sculpting to it's best advantage. But it's a long, slow process – I have to pay the bills in the meantime.

In the market Gailbraithe's aiming at, the design idea, and execution are far more important as selling points than the price. That said, they also require a much bigger marketing push – a key ingredient in GW's success is availability. I can't buy historical figures without travelling 50 miles; but there are several GW stores within that distance which I can buy product at today.

And people will pay money for quality; I happily shelled out £60.00 GBP for Space Hulk last year, because I loved the design of it. I could have bought serious numbers of Old Glory historicals for that money – but my time is important to me, and so I'm careful to focus on quality over quantity.

Good luck with your plans Gailbraithe – I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Michael Lovejoy

michaellovejoy.com

Just my 2’, but I think you'll find the range of costs will vary considerably even without taking into consideration the scale and quality of the sculpt.

I was told (by a coworker) about a well-known sculptor who felt his compensation by company X was not enough for the time he was putting into the green, so he decided to take the commission and divide it by the hourly pay rate he wanted and would only put that amount of time into the sculpt.

Coincidentally the quality of his sculpts went downhill, he was even sending in unfinished work and still expected to get paid in full. To him it wasn't a matter of sculpting faster to get better results, but it was the companies fault for paying him less than what he felt he was worth.

Needless to say this company no longer deals with him.

I sculpt because I like it. The extra money is just that, extra, so my rate is probably less than most. BUT, I also do mostly mechanical work, not organic and there isn't as much demand for mechanical work as there is organic.

For BFG scale space ships I charge anywhere from $100-$300, 6mm vehicles etc about $75-$100, 28mm sized models are around the $500+ range. BUT I have no real set-in-stone price. I will ask them what they expect and need, and alter my fee based on what materials they want it done in, am I working on other projects at the same time etc.

I also don't base the fee on the amount of time I spend on the sculpt, that's really my choice. As long as I hit their due date and we are both happy with the results I can take as much or little time as I want.

Also, depending on what they need, I have just over 12 years of experience in organic/silicone moldmaking and casting, plastic injection molding/tooling so I can advise them on how to make improvements to the design for better results in that aspect as well.

That's more important to me, pride in work and making sure I make something nice rather than what I feel I'm "worth" which IMHO is more of an "ego" issue that some sculptors I've met have.

Which is one other thing about freelancers you have to deal with, some of them DO NOT like to rework their sculpts after they are done.

If you want or need any changes to the sculpt, such as details on the concept not followed or a size issue, some sculptors will either refuse to change it or expect more pay and more time to make changes. Many I have found take offense to those type of requests and they can be very difficult to deal with on future commissions.

Oddly enough you are having issues finding sculptors, I have the exact opposite, finding companies who need sculptors since I am always looking for more work.

Although it could be an issue of my work not being good enough (there is always room for improvement no matter how good you are) I can't believe that since GW, Forge World, Dark Realm and PP still sell what I made or currently am making.

It could be due to the new use of 3D CAD and rapid prototyping that everyone seems to be wanting to use now, so now I am learning how to use computers to sculpt digitally. I have access to Sensible's Claytools with the Phantom Omni haptic tool, for mechanical work I am learning on Lightwave (it's free!)

So when (or if) I improve my 3D skills hopefully that will also improve my chances of getting more work as well.

SHB

link

That's more important to me, pride in work and making sure I make something nice rather than what I feel I'm "worth" which IMHO is more of an "ego" issue that some sculptors I've met have.

Well, I do make sure that I'm making at least minimum wage when sculpting, with means cheap jobs will inevitably be lower quality than if I just went on and on refining; you can call it 'ego' if you like – I call it 'making sure the kids have food to eat'…

You're considering things from the historical wargames side of the hobby.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm not. 500 figures is chump change, it was meant as an example of the lowest end, 5,000 being more the mode and a half million units the top.

"…historical players don't care about quality sculpts"

Depends on what you mean by quality. If you mean the skill required to sculpt it, very few care about that in any branch of the gaming hobby. The quality of exciting the imagination is very important by comparison but that is not very closely tied to the skill question.

"Look at who the biggest names in the business are…."

Yes, the biggest names succeed in charging more for their products because their products have more quality for most of their customers, the quality is not in the skill required for the sculpts but mainly in either the promotion of the product or in the appeal of the idea behind it. A rough formula for success would give a good idea and expert marketing the most weight followed by good business management skills and financing, perhaps half as important, then quality defined as sophistication of the sculpting and other actual physical properties of the product about half as important as that.

"Tom, I'd really like to know your final estimation of whether agents could work for the "average".."

Depends on the model the agency used. I suspect it would require an agent of such energy, ability and insight that he'd be able to find more rewarding work representing some other profession.

"The term "fan-art" just has negative implications that you probably don't want to send out…"

I didn't particularly mean to be negative, what distinguishes fan artists in my experience is limitation rather than incompetence. They frequently can do a narrow range of things very well, they just don't have much breath of skill. Many can, for example draw very nice pinup girls or dragons but if you asked them to sketch a rhinoceros there's no telling what you'd get. Most sculptors working in sub-54mm are the same way, they can frequently do a particular style quite well, but they cant do any sculpting you might ask for well. I include myself in the category, though I'm less limited than most, my animal sculpting is lacking somewhat and my mechanical sculpting skills are not great, both cases of a lack of much practice or application.

I have to ask why you've chosen TMP which is probably the least suited to your needs?

People here generally seem to know what they are talking about, and will generally give you an answer relevant to your question. Lot of knowledgeable people on these forums, and for the most part also very polite and reasonable people.

If you look at the the posts here you'll notice that by far the majority are historical miniature related. Surely one of the other forums which are more fantasy orientated would give you access to the sculptors you are looking for and also a more likely target audience. As I've said before Frothers has a long list of sculptors advertising their services and plenty of the better known ones visit there regularly

I'm looking at Frothers. But I don't like the Frothers forums. Those people are dicks, and talking to them makes me want to punch people in the face.

And I have checked out Frothers in the past. Most of the links in the For Hire section are dead and there is no contact information, or even real names, for most of the artists. Most of the posts I can find in which people have asked about rates or availability or hiring sculptors have no useful information in them, but a lot of arrogant pricks waving their dicks around and acting like it's some accomplishment to be a rude, cynical and unhelpful on the internet.

Grumble.

Also, in the last few days since starting this topic I have sent out a dozen emails to various sculptors I could find. I have gotten exactly ZERO responses. Not a single one. Not even a "I'm not taking commissions right now." Just dead silence.

In fact, I am so completely frustrated by how difficult it is to even get a rough estimate of how much this will cost that I'm pretty much ready to say it and abandon the proposal and any thoughts of the project. Just tell my boss it's never going to be worth the headache.

Then I guess you just don't have

a serious, professional attitude, a realistic business plan and marketing strategy, and a lot of drive and ambition to win out.

Oddly enough Warlord Minatures, Wargames Factory and Victorix have all recently jumped into market and made a big splash.

As I said you need to know the market and where to look.

Possibly the reason you haven't had any answers from sculptors is despite telling them they have no business sense you seem a little surprised that they aren't jumping at the "$20 dollars a head" that you are offering them.
I'm afraid that is well below the rates offered by even the smallest historical manufacturer!

Also, in the last few days since starting this topic I have sent out a dozen emails to various sculptors I could find. I have gotten exactly ZERO responses. Not a single one. Not even a "I'm not taking commissions right now." Just dead silence.

Well, I can't answer for the people you sent email to, as I'm not one of them. But you are in the middle of a Bank Holiday weekend, so they may not be working at the moment.

You didn't email me; I make the assumption you've seen my stuff and don't like it. If that's not the case, then feel free to email me with your requirements and I'll give you a quote.

Michael Lovejoy

michaellovejoy.com

You've had a positive reply to your offer on Frothers even though you "want to punch their faces in"