"Another Russian question" Topic

I know the order to wear the overcoat across the torso came in 1809, but was this something that was done commonly before the regulation was issued? Would it be acceptable to model Russian infantry with the overcoat rolled across the torso for the 1805 campaign and/or up to 1809? I note that Minifigs 15mm Russians for 1805-10 have no great coat yet AB Figures do – with the strap across the chest. What is best? Thanks in advance.

I'm working on an Eylau/Friedland-era Russian army using the AB figures and some of the infantry have the strap across the greatcoat roll and others do not. My sources don't say anything about whether the greatcoat roll was 'kosher' in my period or not, but if it's good enough for Anthony Barton then it's good enough for me.

The Hourtoulle book 'From Eylau to Friedland' shows Russian infantry, both line and guards, with the greatcoat across the torso.

If it's acceptable to you, it's acceptable. Who else's opinion matters, really?

Up through Friedland, we have the cylindrical haversack instead of the later backback. It's THOSE figures that are hard to find.

Widowson – you can do that with Minifigs. The models come with sprues with all three backpack types. However, you have to sculpt your own coats. Kneadite sausage galore!

I model Russians for the 1808-09 war with Sweden – the later pack comes into use in 1809. To be correct, I have to model the same units with older shakos and packs (1808) and later packs and first pattern shakos with added cords. Nothing like picking a war with transitional uniforms.

Many of TMP's Russian experts appear to be languishing in the Dawghouse at the moment. You may get some more insights on the matter in a few days' time when they are allowed back into polite society.

I'm no Russian expert, but I think if you're doing Eylau they would all be wearing their greatcoats.

Yes indeed – one clearly sees how poor we are without those people like Chuvak or Steven Smith.

I'm not sure if anyone knows… The coat was worn around the shoulder once the square packs came in in 1808. But Viskovatov does not seem to illustrate or explain how it was carried with the cylindrical valise. Ulyanov shows a single illustration with a folded coat above the cylinder pack, but no attachment details. Oleg Leonov in Zeughaus 8 shows galley marines from the 1790's with both styles (over the shoulder, or on top of the pack.

Perhaps the answer is in the regulations?

According to Conrads translation of Viskovatov's Historical Description of the clothing and Arms oft he Russian Army vol 7b, describing the greatcoat:

"During weather when it was not needed, it was carried rolled or tied to the top of the knapsack, or thrown back over the shoulder, however was found convenient."
(Military Regulation of 29 November 1796, Part Ten, Chapter VI, § 10, and evidence from contemporaries)

And from the 14 July 1808 regulations found in vol 10b of the same:

"At the same time it was set forth as a rule that when wearing the knapsack in warm or good weather, the soldier was to have his greatcoat rolled over his left shoulder, with the ends low on his right side being tied with a whitened deerskin strap."

Hope this helps.

Excellent, Wulfila, it looks like we do have an answer. The pack was square then, but carried across one shoulder on a single strap like the cylinderical pack.

One would have to pinpoint the exact time of greatcoat (шинель)adoption instead of pellerine (епанча)- that was probably when roll(скатка) was adopted- all the way through WWII… I whould venture out to say early Alex I…

A large and hirsute birdy sent this to me. It may be of interest:

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Alas, those are German made- yek!

Viskovatov Vol. 4 (my trans.)
24 Апрѣля 1763 – Епанча, безъ рукавовъ …. Въ походное время ее скатывали въ валекъ и привязывали на ранецъ.
24 April 1763 [O.S.] – Cloak, without sleeves …. When in the field to be rolled up into bundle and attached on top of the knapsnack.
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(The website is the Russian State Library in Moscow – something like Library of Congress in the USA.)

1763 to 1770 – Viskovatov
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1763 to 1786 – Viskovatov
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The jägers (though not to include their officers and non-combattants) had greatcoats from formation in 1765. They were called прежніе / plazhnie – but had arms and were carried rolled (they may not have been as heavy as later greatcoats, but instead a kind of cold-weather caftan at first) :

1765 to 1786 – Viskoatov
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1787 to 1796 – Unknown (modern)
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ca. 1795 – Unknown
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Viskovatov Vol. 7 (Mark Conrad trans.)
"29 November 1796 [O.S.] – Greatcoat …. During weather when it was not needed, it was carried rolled or tied to the top of the knapsack, or thrown back over the shoulder, however was found convenient."
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This appears to me to be the general introduction of the "canonical" heavy gray(-ish) greatcoats.

1797 to 1802 – Viskovatov
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1799 – Greatcoats conserved at the Suvarov Museum, St-Petersburg.
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1799 – Weber
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Regulation rectangular brown knapsack slung over one shoulder, rolled greatcoat.

1805 – Voltz
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Note that this is either artistic license or we see a remanufactured from Paul's reign or other non-standard knapsack (rectangular, brown-ish and on two shoulder straps – not black, cylindrical and worn over one shoulder). Rolled greatcoat.

1805 to 1807 – Ulyanov (Vol. 2, page 23) shows a grenadier with the regulation (from 1802) black, cylindrical "valise" knapsack and a folded greatcoat attached on top of it.

1806 (to 1808 ?) – Unknown
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It says "1806", but since I don't knwo who did the work, it is hard to be sure. Again, note that this is either artistic license or we see remanufactured from Paul's reign or other non-standard knapsacks (again rectangular, brown-ish and on two shoulder straps). Rolled greatcoats.

Viskovatov Vol. 10 (Mark Conrad trans.)
"14 July 1808 [O.S.] – …. At the same time it was set forth as a rule that when wearing the knapsack in warm or good weather, the soldier was to have his greatcoat rolled over his left shoulder, with the ends low on his right side being tied with a whitened deerskin strap."
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It is from here that I have seen the greatcoats shown carried over the shoulder.

likely late 1809 – Unknown, after Воробьёв Максим Никифорович / Maxim Nikiforovich Vorobyov (1787-1855)
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Interesting – blue collars assumedly left over after the change to red in November 1807, but wearing white cords formally authorized in June 1809.
The blue collars denote the Kavkazskiy Grenadier regiment – which would be good with the Ural (or Yaik) Cossacks depicted. When the young Vorobiev managed to see such troops is probably when accompanied his professor at the Academy, Алексеев Фёдор Яковлевич / Fyodor Yanovlevich Alekseev (1754-1824), on an extended provincial tour in 1809.

Chuey

P.S. – Please, the Klein are not "yek". The others …. well …. someone sure mangled Mæstro Vorobyov's piece, as he was quite a talent, and his school portraits were well regarded at the Academy. Of course, his lasting fame rests upon his landscape work.

I'd prefer Kiel to Klein- if we are choosing what Krout to use…

Sergeis,

Is there something wrong with a German military artist painting Russian soldiers of the period? German artists certainly did material on the French, Italians, and Dutch of the period, as well as troops from the German states and Denmark, and they are some of the best and most reliable of the period.

And I don't believe it is either correct or right to use the term 'Krout' for any German. The war is long over. Besides, you even mispelled it…

A military artist, if accurate, is valuable no matter what nationality he is. Now, if the pictures shown are inaccurate, that's another thing. But to show bias in this manner really isn't acceptable.

Sincerely,
K

K,

Thanks for the lecture, teach.

I am sure that you know exactly the politically correct and incorrect appelations for various nationalities and ethnic groups in Russian, right ?
And your spelling in Cyrillic Russian is flawless, cтёpвэь ?

Maybe cut the guy a little slack – or at least be more polite when explaining the details of modern English usage?

Let's try to receive a guest to our culture and language with a little more helpfulness, and somewhat less condescension.

Sincerely,
C

Пукли не пушки
Пудра не порохь
Коса не тесакь
Я, Ваше Величество, не немець,
А природный Русакь!
Eye roll. Kiel-Klein-Krout- the joke was lost on some I guess. I am afraid I am not much of a guest to KULTUR and LINGVA…
@ Chuvak- Жалко ведь бедного морпеха- одна извилина да и та- след от фуражки…
Merda taurorum animas conturbit.

Уважаемый Сергей!

Я (молодой чувак) – мл. лейт-т кораб. инж.-тех. служба ВМФ США. Редко дес-тники были так.

Xpиcтoc вocкpec!

ВОИСТИНУ ВОСКРЕСЕ!

Chuvak

Once at Bellinzona in 1999 – at a special exhibition for Suvarovs epic march over the Alps, there were some plates, seemingly one of those Series

1799 – Weber
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Regulation rectangular brown knapsack slung over one shoulder, rolled greatcoat.

One showed Russian grenadiers in forage caps resting in a town or village – in 1799, a lot of usefull detail.
In case you detect such a plate – let me know.

Otherwise
Bona Pasqua

Don't you guys think figures are expensive enough. So what if they're not 100% accurate. I've heard dings against almost every figure line out there, for over 30 years! If you don't mind doing a little cutting or sculpting to get the effect you want ( it is up to you), I don't have a problem with that. Remember using Minifig Hungarian infantry for Hungarian Jagers? Or using the dragoon for the light Austrian cav by just painting a different color. In SYW Minifig British Horse became the Horse of other armies too. It went on and on. To each their own.

Absolutely! There should only be one generic figure – if someone wants something else they can do a conversion. Should bring the costs down considerably, eh?