"Kampfgruppe Commander II, Spear Head, CD and BKC" Topic

Okaaaaaay,… Well, I just received my copy of KGC II and have read about a third of the way through. How does one keep from going nuts trying to keep track of what each side did in the previous turn, just to compute the modifiers for 'pip' expenditure? I rather like BKC's method, but as some have mentioned to me, the system seems too arbitrary in action allowance. Spear Head is much less complex and seems faster, yet I've read reviews stating that it is lopsided towards the Germans in changing orders, etc. Command Decision is supposedly slow(?) and somewhat complex for some folks(?) I haven't found that to be necessarily true in my experience with CD. I'm trying to find a standard set of rules without having to use my own complicated version I have written and yet it seems like I'll wind up with bits and pieces from all these systems when it's all said and done. The next set I'm buying is Command Decision – Test of Battle. Any and all comments or advice is welcome. (I'm truly sorry if this topic is boringly old hat for anyone.)

Don't forget Battlefront WWII by the fire and fury folks! :)

fireandfury.com

I've never played any of those you listed, but I have played Mein Panzer and Panzer War and like both sets.

Surely a set of rules that is 'lopsided' towards the Germans in decision making and orders is simply historically accurate? Their use of Mission oriented orders, is currently taught to western forces as the way to fight modern warfare.

It was much faster and more robust than the systems used by tha western allies: the painfully slow British deliberative method and the, well, rather informal, inconsistent and fragile US 'procedure' in WW2?

Mind you, I play FOW so what would I know!

CDTOB is a much streamlined version of Command Decision. There is no doubt Chadwick et al got the message of FOW popularity and looked for ways to bring Command Decision to a bigger potential audience. There is far less requirement for a referee. Turns play faster because spotting is deterministic rather than requiring die rolls. All your stuff is on the table at all times. There are standardised range bands for weapons so combat resolution is quicker. Morale is determined by company rather than for each individual platoon stand.

The introduction of Prep Fire actually allows you to use real life tactics of fire-and-movement, and gives you something to do with direct fire HE. Your British CS tanks have a genuine battlefield use!

Its not all good, but a definite quantum improvement.

Yes, CD4 is pretty good, but as always, I'd hestitate to use it with much more than a reinforced battalion per player. I have shamelessly blagged the new HE supression rules for my own rules.

"Spear Head is much less complex and seems faster, yet I've read reviews stating that it is lopsided towards the Germans in changing orders, etc."

This a strength not a weakness, GWSH, SH and MSH go a very long way towards modeling differences in comman doctrines/training between armies. You have to run WW2 Soviets very differently to Germans, making heavy use of recce, echeloned attacks and reserves, wheras teh Germaqns can do their magic elastic defence stuff. If you think the Germans are hard, then try fighting the IDF in MSH… anyway, the command mods etc are easy enough to fiddle with. What is appropriate for a 1942 panzer division is not necessarily appropriate for 1945 Volkssturm….

SH is aimed at reinforced regiment actions up to division sized. I know it is touted as a div level game, but I've tried div sized games, and you can do it in a day, but not in an evening.

The imbalance towards the Germans I can agree with in certain circumstances, as Kampfgruppe Commander points out in it's system – superior training and leadership can overcome numbers, and this I like. I do the same with my own rules but in a different manner. But it seems to me that 'pips' for actions can become somewhat "sloggy" and confusing during the course of a large game. Most scenarios I design and/or use involve multi-battalions (regiment sized formations) on up to divisional engagements -the later being mostly infantry actions across a broad front.[/p] There are good things in ALL of these rules sets, including FoW (which I own several of their books including the core rules), but I don't want a 'gamey' experience. I like the strategy aspects and historical simulation, but I am looking for parity with a flowing game that allows for the 'feel' of the battle through miniatures, rather than just bases of board moving about in a couple hours. Most of these rules are written for 'micro-scale' and 15mm, so I understand the abstract distance one associates with the units rather than what one might experience with larger scale miniatures. I guess what I'm asking is this: Does anyone play with 1/76 or 1/87 scale (HO/00) miniatures , 1 tank = a platoon, 5 infantry per base = a platoon; and what rules do you use? Old stuff I know, but I have a HUGE collection and I'm not replacing it. I have more than enough equipment for forces on both sides no matter what theater, so opponents are never a problem, just that my own rules need more explaining than I want to go through. :-)

When I played KGC, we used unit sheets that contained the game info needed for that particular unit. On the sheet was a few lines with enough space for hash marks to track pip usage during each turn. Each new turn got a new line, with the old tally slashed out to avoid confusion. Easy, and worked well.

It really took no extra time to do that, compared to a die or token (which would have taken away from the visual aspect, imo).

"Does anyone play with 1/76 or 1/87 scale (HO/00) miniatures , 1 tank = a platoon, 5 infantry per base = a platoon; and what rules do you use?"

I generally use 15mm for this sort of thing, but have large 6mm collections which have been used for this scale of game and my 20s have bene known ot take part in thsi sort of thing as well.

What rules? I lose count, over the years the main ones are probably

Rapid Fire
Command Decision
Spearhead
TAC:WW2
AK47 (modded)

and endless homegrown variants and developments of my own.

Main set we currently use for this level of game (1 base = 1 platoon) are 'Battlegroup' by John Armatys, published in the Wargames Developments Journal.

For regiment/brigade games generally we use company sized elements these days, for evening games anyway, which is a different kettle of fish.

If you are using 20mm stuff you probably want to go with CDs ground scale, 1" = 50 yards, whatever rule set you use.

This is a never ending question whose answer always changes. What I did was…

1) Decide whether you want to command a platoon or a regiment. The concepts are similar but not the same.
2) See what others in your area are playing and decide if you can live with it. If you're going to run all the games and bring all the models pick what you want.
3) Read, read, read reviews but take with a grain of salt.
4) Go to a convention and try the rules you're looking at.
5) Pick a set and live with it. It's easier to find opponents. No set is perfect.

Our group uses SH and MSH. Over the years we have used a number including CD. Having served in Bn and Bde HQs, I think SH gets it right on orders and fire priority and puts me at the level of command I want.

Happy Gaming

Hi Tanker Tom

Have you tried SH with a base as a company rather than a platoon?

I was thinking of this for 6mm divisional to corps scale type games.

If it matters a fig, our group plays pretty much all BKC with modifications to the Command Units.

FOW is played by quite a few of the younger crowd.

mjc

"Have you tried SH with a base as a company rather than a platoon?"

Great War Spearhead uses company size bases with regiments/brigades as the manouvre unit. Works fine.

You may need to design some composite 'weapons company' type elements to cope with all those odd AT guns etc held at battalion/regiment level. Tis what I do. I just factor engineering capability in to cover battalion engineer platoons.

Hi Martin

Thanks for this. I was beginning to think i may have to write a set and this just takes up so much time.

I intend to multiple base vehicles so players with poor eye sight [I have several in my playing group] can more easily see what a base represents.

e.g. single vehicle on a base is recce, two is tank, three is troop transport etc

We play KGC II a lot and just use d8 dice next to the battalion commander to track the amount of pip's remaining. We also use small d6 next to each unit to track the number of actions performed in the opposing sides turn. I personally really like KGC II and don't think the pip tracking is an issue. But as a long time DBM player pip tracking is an easy concept for me to use. Plus we have been playing KGC II for many years so it is all second nature to our game group. One of my favorite aspects to KGC is the ability to react in your opponents turn, and one of the reactions is to fall back. This creates a lot of back and forth in the game as opposed to units dieing in place or routing off (not that it doesn't happen in the game).

Chris

Why not try out Tactical Command – it is a free set of fast play rules.

You can download them here uni.edu/~licari/minis.html

Rule book made up as follows:

Basic rules 8 pages
Optional rules 7 pages
Unit stats 15 pages
Two scenarios 6 pages
To&Es 30 pages

Fairly well written and easy to adapt to your own preferences.

Just a suggestion before you shell out more money on rules.

To keep track of things during the turn you can use mini-dice and turn the pips to indicate what the unit did. Also old counters from board games. I use Risk counters. Colorful and easy to see.

Great! Thanks for the many suggestions everyone. My units are basically set up with 3 to 5 figures to a base, each represents a platoon, and so three platoons to a company. Each company has a Command "team" of two men, one radio man and a Company Commander (which I refer to as a C&C or "Commo and Command.") The Battalion has a C&C (X3 figs on a base) and then there are the support platoons, i.e. AT, HMG Co. and mortars, etc. Pretty much organized around CD standards with my own research and preferences for 'balance.' My miniatures work with Spear Head and KGC, and many others, it's just the command and orders that gets tricky as to how much and how far units can perform in a turn. Spear Head has looked to be the best so far as for ease and speed, but I haven't seen the latest CDTOB rules yet. I'm still in the 'dark ages' as to rules played because almost everyone plays FoW locally. The mini dice sounds like a great idea – I'll try it out. I also like the d8 next to command. Thanks guys. As for artillery rules – which set does the best job? I liked the version in BKC, but the rolling barrage in KGC and other aspects seemed even better.
( BTW, How do I make another paragraph? Everything runs together and I can't figure out the code! And I did check the FAQ but I must be dense.)

There's also "Look Sarge No Charts" which has some interesting command rules.

And if you're going to combine rules, a long and honored tradition, try below

link

These will give you a lot more ideas.

" BTW, How do I make another paragraph? "

Just press return twice.

Like this.

As I said above, if you are going to do Spearhead with 20s, I'd double the ground scale. Even with 15s 1" = 100 yards looks silly. SH works best with a reinforced regiment or more, so I hope you've got a lot of stuff!

Thanks, thomalley – for the link. And thank you Martin for the formating advice – also, "Yes" I do plan on doubling the ground scale, otherwise it'll look like an FoW nightmare.

So far, Spear Head is in the lead, with KGC and BKC running a close second, and old faithful CD bringing up the rear. I ordered Command Decision -Test of Battle, mainly because it's been on my wish list since last year, and second – since I've gone this far, what the heck. Besides, I was wondering what I was going to do with that extra $50.00 USD

Thanks everybody! "Good gaming!"

For keeping track of the pips, we use pennies. each commander gets a penny for each pip as rolled for at the beginning of a turn. For pips used in reaction, you can use another coin such as a dime or any other marker. Simply place teh marker with the unit when it successfully reacts. at teh eand of the turn the PIPS are removed.

One of the things that bothered me about Spearhead was the lack of companies. Battalions are just a collection of platoons that can be combined any old way, without reference to the way the battalion was organized and fought. Microarmor -the Game has the same problem.

Do rules writers just hate captains or something?

"Battalions are just a collection of platoons "

Well, yes. In SH the manouvre unit is the battalion, the platoons are essentially just strength point markers. I usually manouvre my chaps in companies though.

"I usually manouvre my chaps in companies though"

That's because you're a saint, Martin!

This is also why I am considering using a base to represent a company rather than a platoon.

"That's because you're a saint, Martin!"

Well it looks terribly untidy if they rumble along as a horrible gaggle of platoons, and you know what Monty had to say about battlefields and tidiness.

Little wedges of three look nice, and work rather well when the shooting starts.

I suppose you could have a house rule covering company intergrity, max of 2" between platoons of the same compay or something.

I play CD2 in Micro. But AFAIK MANY of the old guard of CD play in 20mm.

"One of the things that bothered me about Spearhead was the lack of companies."

Tactical Command (see above) checks morale by looking at losses suffered by companies, so it may be of interest to you.

Spear Head has a few good merits, but I have acquired Command Decision Test of Battle and will do the scenario using them. I have played CD before, but some things I did not like. We'll see how it goes… I'm optimistic.

Spear Head has a few things I don't care for however, and the absent 'companies' was one of them. I totally agree, it is like the platoons are strength markers.

What strikes me is how each rules set has something in particular that I like/love – and something which either I don't like or find annoying or just "not my cup of tea." It seems I can't get away from 'cooking' the rules a little, then I wind up with the 'home version' of my own rules. Hmmm. This was what I was trying to avoid.

In my experience playing Kampfgruppe Commander it has been no problem keeping track of the pips used. Also, the rules system very graphically illustrates how the command aspects of battle made the difference in success or failure. Count me a fan of this game for the one stand=one platoon level scale.

Good luck in your search!

Cheers,
gregoryk

"Tactical Command (see above) checks morale by looking at losses suffered by companies, so it may be of interest to you."

A particularly brilliant idea in Tactical Command is the 'time passes' option on a drawn intiative dice roll when stuff like ammo resupply happens. I wish I'd thought of that.

"What strikes me is how each rules set has something in particular that I like/love "

I think we've all been there. Still, there is plenty of choice in the 1 base = 1 platoon rules market and you can use the same toys with all of them.

We ended up with homegrown.