"HBO "The Pacific" just not doing it for me..." Topic

I agree. It just not as "glamorous" or as exciting to some per se as the European Theater is. The Pacific was the first Theater of the war I started to study as a kid. Robert

The problem with Pacific theater vs ETO as far as wargaming goes is that mostly no-one wants to play as the Japanese whereas in Europe everyone wants to be Germans! Especially here in Australia its hard to find anyone willing to be the Japanese, a mate of mine said once that his grandfather died at in the fall of Singapore and so he just couldnt play as Japanese nor was he interested in games involving them. he is more than happy to play as and/or against the Germans though.

cheers

FM

Also, a trend I note in Pacific wargames is that the scenarios tend to be very straightforward, assault the beaches. No real maneuver possibilities, just "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle".

And historically, there were occasionally more dramatic or interesting battles with maneuver, I just haven't seem them much at conventions.

Armor was not "the combat arm of decision" but a supporting arm a la WWI.

Yes, the lack of AFVs in the PTO, probably is one of the reasons for lack of appeal for gamers … And to sort of echo what FM said. I used to do nothing but historical gaming, mostly WWII. My father was a decorated US Army Infantry SGT in WWII, in the ETO with the 90th ID. So I studied and gamed mostly ETO and a little PTO. But then I went on active duty for 10+ years as a US Army Infantry Officer. And served in 4 Infantry Bns, was attached to 2 Tank Bns, etc. all over the US and the World. So just before I got out I started Sci-fi gaming. And that appealed to me as there was no polemics. Didn't like the Japs, the Germans had cool AFVs, the USSR was our current enemy, etc., etc. So playing games like G/W's Epic Space Marine, it really didn't matter. It wasn't "too close to home" … And I always liked Sci-fi regardless. Future humans of various types, aliens of all descriptions, etc. … it really didn't matter. Just as now, I see people on this site wanting to game Iraq and the 'stan … I Couldn't do it … "it's too close to home". I can study it, but I can't see gaming it as Yanks, Brits, etc. are currently fighting and dying … So all I do is 6mm Sci-fi … It's objective enough, sterile enough, far removed from Nazis, Japs, real war crimes, real deaths, etc. … I still study military history, but I only do sci-fi for gaming/modelling purposes …

I don't know, give the Japanese some black uniforms, throw a few lightning bolt labels on them, a bunch of really big tanks and they'd be a hit (smile) with war gamers.

Dan

Sadly so Dan. Robert

Yeah … but then they'd be Germans !

Why is there never any shows about US Army troops in the Pacific, only ever Marines :(

As I said, just for the record, the USMC only had 6 Divisions, the US ARMY had around 20 Divisions, in the Pacific …

Well episode three just ended and I am seeing that it is nothing like BoB.

They starting to do some character development and a lot of fornication with the Aussie females.

Well I will most likely watch all ten episodes but I'm not impressed so far.

I would have to say they have built me up over the last year for a let down.

I liked Episode 3 and there was some "Character developement" … and interaction with "Aussie Sheilas" …

As has been remarked, it isn't out here yet in the UK. It is, however, being heavily trailed and I've seen the trailer…My first thought was that it wasn't even a TV series but an ad for a computer game. The CGI looked pretty average to say the least.
Where BoB (and SPR), scored was that they largely relied on live action and supplemented that with sparing use of CGI, Pacific looks like its the other way round.

Having watched all three episodes so far, I can say I am really not that impressed. It hasn't grabbed me like BoB did.
Not trying to compare the two really, just not finding it all that compelling.

Got to agree with opening post, espcially about names and night fighting, but I'm still watching in hope I get into it.

Eps 3 was a BIG let down. The relationship with the Greek Australian girl – so unbelievable it wasn't funny.

And they got the Burma reference wrong I believe – the only Australian's in Burma in January 43 were working on the railway, and there's very little chance that a) The Australian's knew exactly what was being done there, and b) knew that a specific soldier was there.

Not to pile on and Millhouse is probably going to blow a head gasket over this, but I am underwhelmed to say the least three hours in.

Last nights episode was a sure cure for insomnia. "You're dumping me because you think I am going to get killed"………yeah, ok then, poor Marine gets his heart broken by some Aussie chick, stop the world, I want to get off.

And so far the combat has consisted of waves of Japanese being mowed down charging blindly into fixed machine gun positions; wow, brilliant tactics on display there.

And please don't chime in with "Well yeah, that is really how it happened." Looks more like one of those half assed John Wayne efforts; all we are missing are coke bottle glasses and buck teeth and we're good to go.

Also, there is a grade A+ fruitloop ex Marine on one of the other forums I belong to who has been ranting and raving for months now about how this is going to make BOB look like "Bozo's Circus" and about how much better soldiers the Japanese were vs the Germans, etc, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada.

Looks like so far the only Bozo on display is HIM.

That said, James is correct in that things are going to get ugly several more episodes in as "Sledgehammer's" character gets more involved.

Unless they somehow manage to eff that up too.

I don't think its awful and will reserve judement until its done. I have seen three episodes of BOB and I didn't find it earth shattering either.
I have read the Sledge book and I think if its true to that book it will get better.
I am a former Marine and I want this to be good and I think it will be when taken as a whole.

Mongo

Well I was in the 101 back in the early '80 and I liked BoB … And I think The Pacific is well done and I like it so far too … The ETO and the PTO were very different theaters. And so I think the two series are very different. From what I have read, seen on the History Channel and studied I believe everything is pretty accurate and realistic. Which is more of what I'm interested in. And not to rain on anyones parade, but making a statement that the Japs were better soldiers than the Germans is really "Apples & Oranges", IMO … Regardless, I'm "enjoying" the series … And glad I'm watching it on TV and was not there …

Legion4

A buddy of mine says if I saw the whole BoB series I would love it. He is probably right. I thnk that will be the case with The Pacific too. I have watched three episodes of both series and that is a very small sample.

Mongo

To correct an earlier comment, the Philippine Division did have M1 rifles, including the Filipino regiments. That's most of the American infantry.

This seems like a rather tough crowd to me. Spielberg is the movie king of emotion, and that's what I expect from him. Dale Dye and the rest of the technical team do a pretty good job of getting the historical details right, although they must not have been able to find enough of the right models of M1903 Springfields.

Robert Leckie is the key to the early episodes, and you either get caught up in his story or you don't. I do. Basilone's MOH is a supporting story. I can understand viewers losing connecting with all the annonomous characters, especially if they are used to the intimate portrayals in BoB. It does't bother me that much, because the HBO previews led me to expect that.

I'm not sure what Sledge is like, but did you notice how different Basilone and Leckie are? Basilone is the fighting machine once the action starts, even disregarding the burns on his arm in order to carry the fight to the enemy. His companions are awstruck by his single-mindedness. When the fight is over he swithes it "off" and returns to the normal guy in the background. Leckie is no shirker. He is too interested in what is going on to hide. But that's the point. He is an observer of the Marines in action more than one of them. That probably sounds more critical than I mean, but it just struck me how different his seems than the rest. Maybe those who have read Sledge know, is he more a member of the team. Is he emersed in the people and events around him?

BTW, I had to chuckle at the end of episode three. Where else but the USMC would a transfer from infantry to battalion intelligence be seen as a punishment. :-)

Mark

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, both series are very well done. If you have not seen HBO's GERERATION KILL, about a USMC Recon unit in last Iraqi War, that is certainly very good too. Very gritty and realistic. I'm no expert, but I served 10+ years as a US Army Infantry Officer,'79-'90. I commanded a Rifle Plt in the 101 with 3 deployments to Central America, served 2 tours in the ROK with a Mech BN in the 2ID, and commanded a Mech Co., in a Sep Mech Bde at Ft. Benning, Ga. attached to the XVIII ABN Corps where I deployed to Germany and the Desert a number of times. An Air Assault Rifle Plt in the jungle operates differently then a Mech Co. in the Desert or Germany. Or operating in the ROK among the frozen rice paddies or on the DMZ. So as I said before, the ETO and PTO were two very different AOs. And from my experiences, as different as operating in the jungle, the desert, Western Europe, 30 or 40 below of a NE Asian winter and the paddies near the DMZ. So I think if a movie was made in those various terrain and weather conditions, they would all be very different movies. Not to mention the combat abilities of the WWII Germans vs. the IJA or of the USSR, North Koreans, Cubans, CA Guerillas, Arabs, etc. of the '80s … So IMO, BoB, Generation Kill and the Pacific are all worth watching … I'm more interested in accuracy and realism … then an entertaining story. If you are looking for that there are a lot of shows on regular TV … I personally like Burn Notice and CSI/SVU …

Hi

Double G, your complaint was that they didn't embroider the story? Curiously, as a student of this, I keep recognizing the bits.

As I said, I didn't know the series was on. Channel surfing, first episode in the middle, and I said "oh, look, someone has recreated the First marines at allegator creek". In other threads about movies and combat, we violate the "John the OFM" rule, and complain about how they got history wrong.

HERE, they are getting the fights right, and YOU complain!

Rocky

You didn't know the series was on?

The same series that we've been getting hammered non stop 24/7 about for months?

Did Basilone burn his arm humping the 30 cal around without the glove or by firing it "Rambo style" off the tripod cradled in his arm?

Since neither of us were actually THERE, we're not sure if they got that rignt now are we?

I'll wait until the episodes with Sledge in them as of the three main characters, he was knee deep in the !@#$ more than any of them, specifically Pelelieu, Iwo and Okinawa.

But you already know that seeing as how you're a "student" of this and all…………

I believe that Basilones actions are well documented and as far as I know they are being accurately displayed.
The Leckie character is a little annoying, but from what I have read he was a complex dude.
I like it so far, but I am guilty of being a former Jarhead Grunt and everyone in bootcamp learns about "Manila" John.

Mongo

Mongo,
You manned up and served your country and were a Marine, so your comments/thoughts/opinions come from your experiendces and from what you were told as a member of the Marine Corps.

I'm happy for you and all other Marines past and present someone finally decided to tell the Marines story during WWII in an epic minseries.

It's my hope in the end this series does for Marines what SPR and BOB did for the US Rangers and Airborne; and I hope my late Uncle Jim and all the other late Marines get the recognition they've deserved for what they did in WWII…………

Hi

I don't watch much TV, and I habitually mentally screen out commericals. So, while I vaguely knew that Speilburg was doing a series, I didn't write show times on my hand or anything. I often just turn on the TV at random when cooking.

So, ya, I didn't know it was on or much about it. And said "oh look".

"We don't know if they got it right…." is a little bit of special pleading, again. In that the incident is well known in some circles and mentioned in pretty much any detail history of the 'canal. It could be that all history is made up….but the histories are there. Nice conspiracy idea, though. So, no I wasn't there, and it might be all made up, but I instantly recognized the incident…which is rare for a movie.

About the only parallel I can think off off hand was the Alamo movie where in most of the scenes I knew WHICH account they used. I used to live in San Antonio, and have, of course, been to the Alamo…but it could have been all made up.

Rocky

Which Alamo movie; the John Wayne comic book/"As I was killing them, I was proud of them"/Travis gets shot, snaps his sword in half and throws it at the Mexicans/Crockett dies with a lance through the chest just as he heaves a lit torch into the powder magazine blowing up the chapel version or the Ron Howard assault occurred in the early am and most of the garrison was asleep/Travis gets killed early in the assault/Crockett gets captured, not dies in the assault version?

I believe the confusion and character feel is different with The Pacific because it is 3 seperate stories rolled into one drama. BoB was one story only, even if at times later on it was various individuals POV.

I am not sure what people were expecting, but I remember back to my first watchings of BoB and even in 2nd episode I had not remembered all the characters. Given 2 seperate but connected story lines I am not sure a big warm up episode would help.

I had no problems as I am well read on the USMC in ww2, I had problems more with Easy Company to start with as I did not have the same knowledge.

G

In UK but have watched the first 3 via torrent and will give it one more ep before i decide to carry on or bin it and not bother. Not cutting it for me at the moment but it could be a slow burner that comes good.

It's not because it's not BoB.
It's not because it is in the Pacific.
It's not because there are three stories woven together.
It's not because it's there is night fighting.
It's got nothing to do with how accurate the Marines are depicted
It's got nothing to with how well the action is depicted.
It's got nothing to do with many of the comments on this thread.

It has to do with the writing.
The writing does not suck me in as it did in BoB, or Letters from Iwo Jima, or Flags of our Fathers, or Saving Private Ryan, just to mention a few recent examples.
I'm just kept at arms length when watching the proceedings and really don't care about the characters, even when they die. That's just bad drama.

Maybe the series will pick up, but the movies I mentioned had less than 3 hours to work with and were much better at story narrative and character development. I blame head writer and fellow Canadian Graham Yost (who also scripted 2 episodes of BOB).

Your mileage may vary.

Ralph

Well lets see Episode IV:

More Japanese Night Suicide Attacks.

Rain, Rain And More Rain.

And A Hole Bunch of Mental Heath Issues (Combat Fatigue).

Am I Going To Keep Watching For The Next Six Week?

Yeah … I saw it too … I still found it interesting … May be it's just me … But the VA says I got mental health issues any way …

@ 11th ACR

That sounds like the Pacific to me. Might not be as glamorous as the European theatre.

No place to pull back to for a few days rest like Paris, no cushy home stays between ops, sometimes months spent in combat without rest, an enemy that will kill you all so no point surrendering, enemy tactics designed to try and minimise your advantages, supplies a low priority as Hitler and the Army came first, …

It was a different war. Casualties could be much higher than in Europe for a unit, the terrain could be your enemy as much as the enemy and diseases, and never mind the fact that you fought in conditions where the dead rotted out in days with flies so dense that even the enemy does not shoot at your planes spraying DDT over the battlefield.

So far so good for me.

@Gordon of TFP

Well said. Now if the writers of "The Pacific" could channel some of the passion of your writing above, it would be a different series. IMO only.

I totally agree with both of you (Gordon of TFP Games and crhkrebs), yet the way it is being shown:

Episode IV:

More Japanese Night Suicide Attacks. (2 Minutes)

Rain, Rain And More Rain. (10 Minutes)

And A Hole Bunch of Mental Heath Issues (Combat Fatigue). (The rest of the Show).

Granted there is a few minutes of other things, the landing at Cape Gloster ect thrown in.

Just something missing for me and others out there.

?

Hi

One of my uncles…later at all the "biggies" as well, Iwo, Saipan, and so on. When I met him as a kid, he wanted to show me a trick…

Showed me a black widow spider out in a shed, and teased it till it bit him. The alcohol level in his blood caused the spider to shrivel and Die.

Accompanied by his laughter.

I have seen the John Wayne version of the pacific war before, but not my uncle's war.

Rocky

Got home around 1:00am last night from the Red Sox/Yankees game (GREAT game; Chan Ho Park must be Korean for "throws meatballs right down broadway" as that home run landed about ten feet from where I was sitting) and watched this episode as I had DVR'd it…………and I fell asleep about halfway through it.

I'm learning a lot about the war in the pacific by watching this (all the Japanese attacks were suicide charges at night for example).

Sledge now gets involved and by the looks of things, it should really start to heat up now; or else.

But please; no more night attacks…………..

Some interesting comments here:

TMP link

Um, what about the landings on Tarawa, the fighting on Saipan, the Iwo Jima landings, the inland fighting on Okinawa, etc, etc………..

I guess we will just have to wait and see.

I like it!

Just watched eps 4. I've defended the show for a while now but have to agree with Ralph, the writing varies from good (dialogue in the mental ward, thought that was intersting though not action packed and a valid story of WW2 to tell) to poor (the entirety of episode 3). I'll keep watching because it beats pretty much anything else on at the moment, but I'm going to stop trying to compare it to BoB because it will lose out in every way.

To be honest I can only think of a handful of films about the Pacific war that connected with me – and I'm the grandson of Pacific War vets so am very open to being entertained with this subject.

Just watched EP4 and i think i will wait for someone to let me know when the action starts then just download those episodes. I am really disappointed with this series as it so far has taken 4 hours to tell me nothing of worth. I had been looking forward to it for some time and while it looks authentic i find i can't connect with the characters at all.

Have just seen episode 4, it's just not working for me. The characters are not interesting, the action scenese are more like firework displays on a dark night, and the story just isn't engaging. The only thing I really like at the moment are the opening credits.

I think going forward this series is really going to ramp up, starting with the landings on Peleliu and going from there to Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

At least I hope that is the case, we'll have to wait and see.

"Yup I read the books years ago and know about the battle so it's A OK for me. This series is about three Marines not one line company of airborne soldiers. So far I think it's good to go."

Didnt read the book(s), but its doing fine for me.

"I will watch it to the end."

Me too.

"I think going forward this series is really going to ramp up, starting with the landings on Peleliu and going from there to Iwo Jima and Okinawa."

;-)

To Rocky's point, this series has been done so accurately and with the right level of verisimilitude that he could flip it on and completely out of context know that he was watching the action at Alligator Creek. I beieve his point was that the producers could have made stuff up (a la the Alamo mythology) but that would be inaccuarate. These are the stories of these three men. Here is what happened. Most of the major Japanese assaults on Guadalcanal happened at night and so forth.

It's like a great novel that takes a few chapters to "get into".

Since "Saving Private Ryan" we have all been spoiled by the subsequent quality of war films as that one redefined the genre and set a whole new standard. Spielberg shocked the audience with the first 28 minutes and set the tone for the rest of the film. We are now all "film combat veterans" and a bit more used to those depictions. As for the combat action in "The Pacific", I believe for artistic reasons they are allowing it to bulid in a sort of violent crescedo. This Sunday will be Pelelieu and I believe it will be off the hook intense. I'm told that Pelelieu will be three episodes so between the landings and Bloody Nose Ridge etc ther will be no shortage of combat. I also predict Iwo Jima will be brief for reasons that will be obvious. Okinawa will have its share of combat but will also show the local civilian impact (250,000 Okinawans died) which will depict a whole new level of human suffering in a Dantean hell. The last episode will be Sledge in China and the surviving characters trying to adjust to civilian life.

I also predict this will win several Emmy's even though some members of the Academy will object to too many Japanese night assault scenes. ;?)

So strap yourselves in TMPers. Or as that Marine NCO in the Amtrac says as he and Sledge's squad are about to rumble out of that LST, "HERE WE GO, BOYSH!!!!"

George

I was feeling the same, a great lover of band of brothers, but maybe its the bigger units or the night fighting, its not the same as the ww2 version…

But i will watch it until the end of course, but they cannot be showing the complete war in 10 parts…?

I enjoy it thats for sure………..but i'm taking it as a show and not an historical document.

I enjoyed it but then I'm a brit…..