"HBO "The Pacific" just not doing it for me..." Topic

I think I know the names of three of the characters now. (One guy's name I didn't know until they started looking for his dead body.)

It's flat-out amazing to me that they've done so little in the way of character development. Compared to "Band of Brothers," it's just negligible.

The night-fighting scenes are good, if a bit repetitive. The use of the CGI greenscreen in the background for the shots of guys at the beach is just awful, though… it looks like some second-rate made-for-TV flick. You can actually see the yellow-pixel halos around their faces.

And the editing is sloppy. One minute they're talking about being surrounded, cut off from all supplies, with the Navy nowhere near… and literally one minute later they're bitching about the Army arriving. With no explanation at all, regarding how the situation changed. (Errm, I guess they're not surrounded and cut off any more…?)

Sigh. I think I'll do one more episode, and then if it doesn't start making some sense, I'm done with it.

Me Too
John

Hanks and Spielberg didn't set out to make BoB Pacific, so the plot line is going to vary a bit. Personally, I like it, but then again being a retired Marine, perhaps I'm a bit more pre-disposed to seeing some USMC history finally being played out on TV.

I'd have preferred to have gotten to know the characters. I find it hard remembering even who's who, or what their connection is to each other, or what unit(s) they're in; to say nothing of knowing their personalities.

In BoB, when a character died, we knew his name, who he was, what his loss meant to the others, etc. Often they devoted an entire episode to the perspective of one man, leading up to either his death, or the death of one of his close friends.

In "The Pacific," Aside from the nice scene in the last two minutes in the ship's galley… I'm just having a hard time caring about these guys.

The only character I know by name is Chesty Puller.

Granted, I've only seen the first episode but I found the problem to be around the character development as well. The three main characters (there are three main characters, right?) are indistinguishable. The supposedly tense scenes just don't do it for me. I don't have the sense of caring about the characters the way I did with BoB.

Yup I read the books years ago and know about the battle so it's A OK for me. This series is about three Marines not one line company of airborne soldiers. So far I think it's good to go.

No, it is not Band of Brothers. As it does revolve around a smaller number of main characters, I was hoping for more development there too. Episode 2 was dealt with the battle where John Basilone was awarded the MOH, yet the depiction did not convey the moment for me. The attack on the German 105s on D-Day depicted in BoB provided a grittier, more harrowing vision of combat than that of Japanese assaults. I'll still watch the series, but maybe it's just that BoB was so well done that the Pacific seems to be below par, even though it is quite good.

The scene in which John Basilone earned his MOH lasted about 30 seconds on the screen, and I didn't even know who he was – or that his name was "John," until three or four scenes later, when I sort of put it together in my head and realized: "Oh, okay, that's who he was…"

It's just sloppy writing and bad editing.

I have enjoyed it so far … And since I read about/studied the theater, I had a good working knowledge of what was going on. And knew some of the names other than Puller … And after some of the tense battle seens and horrible conditions, I certainly got the "feel" for it …

I was just going to post this same comment. I watched the second episode tonight and had "no feeling" whatsoever about any of the characters – none of whom I knew. I also thought the medal of honor scene was too contrived. You knew when the fight began this was going to be his "medal of honor" scene. Maybe it is realistic and true but its not conveyed in the movie. In fact if you watch that scene again at both positions you never even see anyone get killed in the attack, I think two guys get shot but are o.k.. I am sure that was not realistic. In fact when he goes to the medical tent to look for Rodriguez the first thing that comes to my mind is "where did those wounded guys come from?".

I don't think I am going to watch anymore as they are aired but will pick them up "ON DEMAND" once the series is almost over and I can watch them straight through. This ways it may be better viewed in a "movie" format rather than a series.

What an amazing episode, especially the character development flowing in drips instead of being forced fed for the brain dead. Seeing Sledge and his father discuss his decision to fight was especially poignant. I suppose many a Southern household witnessed the same scene after the attack on Fort Sumter.

Massive compression of time and unexplicable jumps in the apparent story. Of course the ground fighting in the Pacific ran a lot longer than in Europe – starting in December 1941 as opposed to mid-1944, so is should take two to three times as many episodes to give the same level of detail. I'm guessing 2 episodes per major operation – #1 landings followed by #2 relief & some 'home front'.

Then again, their 'Military Expert' is Army, not Marine Corps.

I haven't seen Ep.2 yet, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

I'm enjoying The Pacific, but I'll have to agree on the points made about the editing, etc… It's not Band of Brothers. I knew the characters after episode 1 in BoB. In Pacific, Private Leckie is the only one I always remember.

Lack of story line, character development and now the emphasis on computer graphics and explosions is just part of the NORM in todays movie production….

Prefect example; compare the two "Pelham 123" films. First made in the mid 1970 with LOADS of story line and caharacter delveloment and the 2009 version with…well less said the better?

SFC Retired

I think we're doing both the series and the history a disservice by comparing it BoB. Completely different war.

Being Australian I'm not fully across who the MOH winners were at Guadacanal (sorry guys, we got our own heroes to learn about) but I found the MOH scene amazing. Didn't have a problem following it at all, but that's not to say any of the above criticisms are wrong. Definitely concede that they're throwing you in the deep end with the story, but they did that recently with Generation Kill and as with GK we will get to know the characters as we go along. If they did a whole Basic Training episode to introduce all the characters to us then a lot of people would be rightly saying it was just a rehash of BoB no matter what came after (think epsiode Currahee). In some ways its a lot like the characterisation found in Thin Red Line, takes a while to settle in but by the end of the film you know who is who.

Also I think there are two sets of characters we're following, the three NCO's (one of whom just died, the other getting the MOH) and the other the four HMG crew.

Having just watched Band of Brothers again it is a transition to Pacific. But mainly I think becuase BOB was basically about 1 specific unit, os it was easier to get into the characters from episode to episode.

In Pacific they have a lot more ground to cover, and different units, but I am liking it very much.
As far as the 3 main characters, I know there is John Basilone and Leckie, who is the third? Is it the 18 year old with the heart mummer that is just going to enlist?

I will say that this series should have been made into 15 or 16 shows than 10, but the John Basilone fight seen where he won his MOH was a hell of a lot better then Capt Spears running through a town and not getting shot, I had forgotten that Spears won the MOH until the show mentioned it.

WarWizard the third man is E.B. Sledge who wrote With the Old Breed which is a very good book.

This isn't BoB, this is a completely different story. I find it quite riveting.
I don't understand why you'd expect to see a lot of dead Marines during a night fight in the jungle. You don't see a lot of anything.
This episode's combat scenes were especially moving to me. It really felt desperate from the point of view of the Marines and it conveyed what a terrible waste of life it all was.

I like it and can follow the characters. I saw the "making of" and it helped with who they were.

It's not BOB because its not BOB.

I thought there were a lot of night fighting scenes because there was a lot of night fighting

I find it hard to believe that we all remembered the characters on BOB so fondly after the first 2 episodes. I know the cast now because I've seen the shows about 10 times.

Mark

I didn't have any trouble following the night fighting scenes…. but I'll have to agree with Irish Marine that more episodes would be better. There's just to much story to cram into 10 one hour episodes.

I'm enjoying the show very much and not having any trouble following the story line.

WarWizard the third man is E.B. Sledge who wrote With the Old Breed which is a very good book.

Thank you, that's what I though.

I think the night fight scenes are very intense also. And it really emphasies the difference in fighting styles between what you saw with the german army in BOB vs the Japanese Bonzai style of throwing waves of infantry at the enemy.

I think it's damn good!

"the Japanese Bonzai style"

must…resist….urge….to…pun!!! :)

Second what Marara, if you can watch the "making of" On Demand it helps a lot with keeping the characters strait.

Hatmaker- do you have an example of such a character in the 1st two episodes of BOB?

"In BoB, when a character died, we knew his name, who he was, what his loss meant to the others, etc. Often they devoted an entire episode to the perspective of one man, leading up to either his death, or the death of one of his close friends"

The series so far has left me cold. Shrug. I don't think I will continue trying to view it until it shows up on DVD or something.

The first episode was weirdly paced and didn't suck me in. I thought the second was better and at least some of the characters began emerging. Hopefully, the series will cohere over the coming weeks.

Hi

Have I read too much? I don't know. I keep seeing scenes I recognized from reading history, and, "knowing" these guys, i have no problem following it!

But while we are violating John the OFM's rule, I would have had a bit on the damaged carriers having aircraft forced to land at Cactus, the sequeences where guys are taking off and immediatly hitting japanese at the edge of the field. Coral Sea. And in general Catcus.

Award winners? Joe Foss?

Rocky

I have read alot about the Allies in the Pacific Theater in regards to the Army Navy and Marines over the decades LOL. And even so the series is just not grabbing me.I'm having a hard time connecting with the characters and caring about what they do and what happens to them. Robert

I remember being very confused when Band of Brothers started. Who were all these people and how did you keep them straight? Later I read the book then re-watched the series from the beginning, and it all made sense.

So I'm not surprised to have a little trouble keeping track only 2 episodes into The Pacific. Of the four books listed in the credits, so far the only one I've read is Sledge's With The Old Breed, and not recently, and that is about events later in the war (since as we just saw, Sledge hasn't even enlisted yet).

Funny story about the night fighting scenes. You know, I was like, jeez, these are really realistic, totally black, you can't see anything but muzzle flashes. But last night watching my recording of episode 2, Basilone is leading his men out of the foxhole and runs into Japanese soldiers and fights them hand to hand … all I can see is a face once in a while, but they're grappling each other … this can't be right.

So I hit pause and turn up the brightness on my TV. It was at 50 … I run it up to 89 … my gosh, bright as day, there's trees, bushes, branches, soldiers, everything … I run it down to oh, 65 … now you can see everybody in the foxhole but it looks like night.

What an improvement! Going to go watch episode 1 again.

The story is either NOT about the characters, per se, or their development will course throughout the series. I think the characters are vehicles to move the "experience" forward. So far, we got a taste of the savagery done by the Japanese to prisoners, their willingness to die, their willingness to take as many down with them as possible (the wounded Jap with grenade scene). The intent is obviously to show just what a hell-hole it was.

As the series progresses, I wouldn't be surprised if the tables are turned and we begin to see the savagery of the Marines (and I think justifiably so). We got a glimpse of it in Episode 1. While BoB made it easy to like the men of Easy, it probably wouldn't fit into the tone of the Pacific series. We can like the guys, but we probably shouldn't get too close. This is dark stuff indeed.

bsrlee … I thought Dale Dye was the chief military advisor ? And he's a retired Marine … Regardless … I think the scenes are pretty realistic and well done. And just FYI, the 164th Inf Rgt, mentioned in lastnight's episode was part of the US Army's Americal Div. And as the reminents of the 1st Marine Div was being withdrawn, the 2nd Marine Div was landed, the Americal and finally the Army 25th Inf Div. And don't forget roughly about the time this was going on, the US Army's 32nd Div and the Aussie's 7th were fighting in Papua/New Guinea …

Some one made the comment that fighting in Europe did not start until mid 1944. That would have surprised my uncle who made 3 amphibious assault landings with the Big Red 1, starting in November 1942 and spent a lot more actual time in combat than any one in the Pacific that was not a refugee in the Phil. islands after the fall of Battan.

Dan

Yep, Operation Torch, French NW Africa, Nov. 42, then Sicily and Salerno, Italy in '43 … So a lot was going on in the Med/ETO, too …

I have learned from watching the first two episodes to value the .30 caliber water jacketed medium machine gun in sets of at least two guns with lots and lots of ammunition. The thirty cal's did most of the damage in defense. The chagrin of the machine gunners at dealing so much devastation was emoted after the battles. I am not sure whether you noticed or not that the Marine riflemen who arrived on the island were equipped with the 1901 Springfield bolt action rifle. Army regiment that arrived had M-1 Garands which the Marines discovered boxed in crates on their scrounging expedition. Marines rued and smoldered over the situation of being shorted on supplies and equipment.

It is clear that character development is getting a boost now that the Alabama guy cleared from his heart murmur is joining up. His arrival will no doubt spell even more doom for the foe.

So far carnage reigns. I did like the Navy cook who gave the exhausted veterans coffee after they re-boarded the transport.
The other interesting thing was the one enemy who charged toward the marine position in daylight but was caught in the river. The marines toyed with that guy who was clearly frustrated, courageous, and suicidal. The machine gunner got him with a pistol at about fifty yards. Interesting.

An entertaining element on the edge of the battle line is to hear the off hand comments from the troops out of the dark, down the line commenting on their situation. And how often do you get a scene of a guy sitting on a latrine log discussing bad nicknames with a another guy barfing at his feet? You just don't get that in Avatar.

"Then again, their 'Military Expert' is Army, not Marine Corps."

Dale Dye was in the 1st Marines. What are you talking about?

link

Lots of good comments to replay to on this thread but I am short of time this AM. Will post more detail later. BUT FWIW I recommend that those interested in the story but finding it hard to follow check out the HBO website for the series. I have only taken a brief minute to do so but looks to be a lot of background detail there. I have already posted about the extra material one can watch if one has "On Demand". Also as has been noted above several times there is more to this story AFTER the boys come home. In Band of Brothers it was a five minute scene where Winters talked about the men while the image of them playing baseball in Austria.

If all else fails you can always read a book I have a list of five or six I can recommend.

Being a veteran of 25 plus years I understand much of the human story is what transpires AFTER the boys come home. Have we all not learned that from the stories of our Service Memebers returning from GWOT?

Remember the Veterans of Easy Company's story looking back was not presented in the first issue. I think many of us are looking back or remembering BoB, and just like having a buddy you have known for years think you know him from day one. It takes time to develope the storyline and for a 10 hour film being one hour into the program I think the jury is still out. I could not image writing a review of a movie after watching 10 minutes, well except for 2012!
VR
James Mattes

Wow, this is SUCH a tough crowd. The unis and equipment are perfect, the battle scenes are authentic loking, the history is correct, and you're COMPLAINING!?!?!

Tough crowd.

I'm not really "complaining". I just expected a little more clarity about the characters. Yes "The unis and equipment are perfect, the battle scenes are authentic loking, the history is correct".But if I wanted just that I could watch a documentary. Robert

Yes, Dye was a Marine and fought at Hue, IIRC. He has made a career of being a Mil Tech Advisor and even acting a bit. From a Tactical standpoint, the 30.cal MG did the lion's share of killing. Most of the Marines were armed with the bolt action '03 Springfield as were most of the Army troops in the PI when it was overrun. A few Thompsons, BARs and a shot gun or two were in the mix, the USMC had a few Reising SMGs. But MGs followed by light 60mm mortars were the "killers". And the Japanese tactics only compounded the killing/slaughter. The 8 round semi-automatic M1 gave the US Infantry a real advantage throughout the war. The USMC was eventually issued them. The US was the only Army in WWII where all the basic infantrymen were issued semi-automatic weapons in the M1 and later some were issued the M1 Carbine. The Japanese small arms the infantry were issued very crude and basic, as was their tiny inventory in AFVs. Their willingness to die en masse was their strong suit. And amazingly more Japanese on Guadacanal died of starvation and disease than in combat.

I haven't seen more than about 20 minutes of it online so I can't comment about the show.

But I can say from the postings here that just because someone wants character development and references BoB as an example, doesn't mean they are asking for a repeat of the BoB formula. We all know it was a different type of war but didn't they have real people in the Pacific? Lots of movies bring characters to life by giving them some depth and making them more than just a name. I think all people are asking for is the same with this one. Make them care about the guys who are getting shot at (and I guess dying in some cases).

Thanks Cincinnatus. Exactly. Robert

I have no doubt that some people here view this new series here as "Band of Brothers: Pacific" and fully expect the same formula, hence the few direct comparisons stated above.

I think you will see much more about the individuals. All should read at least the poem Lackie wrote in the introduction to his book. His role will be interesting as the good, bad and ugly of combat service is further developed in the story. I have had a hard time watching with my brother and his family. They are total civilians and are always asking me questions. He often wondered about my service in the military and over the past few weeks we have talked about war more then we ever had even as kid. Hell he was the one who go me into toy soldiers and I never lost interest in the military arts and sciences since. I think EVERYONE will be shocked at the way this story will develope. There is much soul searching coming trust me, been there done that, got the t-shirt.
VR
James Mattes

marara – I agree most probably expected it to be BoB:Pacific but that's not the complaint they are making.

I only chimed in because I have a female friend who loved BoB and was really looking forward to this series. She has made the same comments about not being able to keep straight who is who and not having any feel for the characters. She's a big movie fan and has a daughter who has been a professional actress so she has a feel for good character development. She feels it's lacking and keeping her from really getting into the series. She has a lot of questions for me because she thinks I can help her understand. Since I'm not able to watch it (HBO-less), I can't really help much except with technical issues.

She's not going to read a book or 3 to get into the series and understand who is who. She'll stay with it because that's the way she is but I doubt all marginal fans like her will. I expect she's much closer to the typical HBO viewer than anyone on this board.

What I do find interesting, it seems to me, that generally most Americans know more about the ETO then the PTO …

I think that goes for more then just the "Americans" Legion 4. I have seen over the years a majority of people especially wargamers who when asked what Theater they have the most interest in will pick the European Theater. And that goes for those overseas too. Most say they have no interest in the Pacific. Just look at the amount of topics here over the years and you will see that most are about Europe. Robert

Which is too bad as the PTO & CBI are very interesting campaigns and battles. Not highly mechanzied like in Europe, but just as bloody if not more so in many cases. Plus from a military historian's standpoint, a lot of lessons to be learned. I know in our old SF & Ranger Handbooks, some of the dismounted patrolling and LRP techniques, guerilla ops, etc. had their roots in the PTO & CBI …