""Thuvia, Maid of Mars". Yay or Nay?" Topic

After reading the "John Carter" trilogy I immediately read "Thuvia, Maid of Mars" and was very disappointed. The premise that telepathy could cause soldiers to believe that they were fighting whole armies and to die because they *believed* that they were dying was just too incredible to force myself to take seriously. Otherwise the story was fairly typical ERB. Nothing really special. What did you guys think?

Well, I haven't read the book, but reports from observers in places where witch doctors are still believed in have stated that people cursed by the WD have laid down and died. Whether that is true or not, I can't say, but the mind is a mysterious thing.

I read it many years ago and liked it. Mikhail brings up a good point. Telepathy itself would be much harder for me to believe in as a "real" thing than that the mind is powerful enough to shut down the body resulting in death.

Read it here:

gutenberg.org/etext/72

…if you can.

It is probably my second-to-least favorite Barsoom book. The first three rocked, and the one where John Carter went undercover in the Assassin's city was pretty good too.

Not the best, but keep on reading. On the other hand, the telepathy concept is no more far-fetched than Barsoom!

>>On the other hand, the telepathy concept is no more far-fetched than Barsoom!<<

I agree. Not in modern times at least, but back when the novel was published the atmosphere and terrain of Mars was largely unknown, and the premise of strange Martian humanoids walking around breathing was at least a possibility.

>>Well, I haven't read the book, but reports from observers in places where witch doctors are still believed in have stated that people cursed by the WD have laid down and died. Whether that is true or not, I can't say, but the mind is a mysterious thing.<<

Sure. One person at a time…but whole armies?!

It's like dominoes… the first guy falls, the guys around him see him fall and figure they're done for too… it's like a fatal case of mass hysteria… maybe.
Once, at a Greatful Dead show, I managed to make myself very ill while watching my friend being very ill… he was blaming it on some 'brownies' we'd recently eaten. Turns out he'd had a battery of shots for his upcoming trip to Africa… but had (somehow) forgotten and thought we were poisoned.
… of course we did have brownies in our system which helped us succumb to the suggestion. It was a wild night.
Based on our stories our friends sought out the same baker the next day and later said the brownies were quite kind to them.

I can't speak to telepathy; I don't really believe in it. Oh, yes: I know what you're thinking…

But in hypnosis, it's a basic principle that it is impossible to "force" a subject to follow a suggestion that he or she is disinclined to follow. The only reason that "stage" hypnotists can induce people to do silly and embarrassing things is that they, at some level, recognize that the purpose is entertainment, and go along with it.

A suggestion that would cause the subject to do harm to his or her self will not be followed--unless the subject already has the desire to do it.

Allen

What if you convince them they're doing something normal… like diving into a pool on a hot day… when they're really jumping off a 9th story balcony? Is that sort of thing possible? (not that it's got much to do with the original subject).

In the first Star Trek, those big-headed guys made Christopher Pike think he was completely healthy when he was actually confined to a wheel chair. Same with his female companion's disfigurement.

It's all in the mind.

I liked it, though not as much as the original trilogy. I had absolutely no problem with the use of telepathy – it was an interesting idea, and no more fantastic (in my opinion) than any other aspect of Barsoom.

>>I liked it, though not as much as the original trilogy. I had absolutely no problem with the use of telepathy – it was an interesting idea, and no more fantastic (in my opinion) than any other aspect of Barsoom.<<

I wanna see Dejah Thoris lay an egg…and I don't mean figuratively. (-:

Venusboys3 asked -
"What if you convince them they're doing something normal… like diving into a pool on a hot day… when they're really jumping off a 9th story balcony? Is that sort of thing possible? (not that it's got much to do with the original subject)."

Unlikely: like the urban myth of the guys who dropped LSD and stared into the sun until blind, the self-preservation instinct will override things to a great extent, even if someone 'thinks' that it's OK to do something. Ophidiophobes will still not touch a snake even when it's shown not to be poisonous, for example.

Still, if there's an instinct for self-destruction, hypnosis *might* bring it out – stage hypnosis relies on the fact that outgoing people will tend to volunteer and outgoing people will likely be open to do the sort of things they suggest. Hypnotherapists OTOH have to gently move people in small steps to change behaviours.

The concept is similar to that of the "Matrix", only instead of being plugged physically into the uber-computer the target minds are being fed a virtual experience by the Barsoomian telepath that is "real" enough to cause their deaths if they believe that they've been dealt mortal wounds in battle.

Like all the John Carter books, so yay

Thuvia's not my favorite, but don't give up there. I like Chessmen a lot; A Fighting Man of Mars, too. Swords of Mars is the one Impala likes…

It's far from my favorite of the books (that would be "The Warlord of Mars"), but I enjoyed the whole series.

I don't find the telepathy angle at all hard to swallow. I've taken a course on hypnosis and seen some of the things that people can do. I saw the teacher of that course press a rubber pencil eraser into a hypnotized woman's arm after telling her it was a hot brand and a small blister formed on the surface of her arm when he pulled the pencil away. That happens because many times of wounds provoke automatic responses from the body, and the nervous system can be fooled into activating those responses

Since telepathy is far more insidious than hypnosis and actually insert thoughts into the mind, I can easily imagine it having far greater effect than hyponosis. Unable to distinguish from reality and the fabricated sensations, the body could theoretically generate enough secondary automatic responses to kill you.

I mean, people who die from gunshot wounds die from the shock (secondary automatic response) as often as they die from the actual physical trauma caused by the bullet. Fool the body into activating that response, causing blood to coagulate in the veins, flooding the system with dopamines, lowering the heart rate, etc. and I could see it causing death.

Thuvia was one of the weakest.

But if you can swallow a Confederate Virginian being transported to Mars….

They also used it in a Flash Gordon story and people seemed to accept it when the Washowski brothers "invented" the concept for their Matrix movies.

>>They also used it in a Flash Gordon story and people seemed to accept it when the Washowski brothers "invented" the concept for their Matrix movies.<<

Which "Flash Gordon Story"? I don't recall that from the serial or the comic strip.

I read it years ago in a Dutch kid's magazine. Probably one of the stories written in the 60's or 70's.

erm….'Thuvia, Maid of Mars?'….

First of all, in the novel before, wasn't she the 'plaything/non-virginized/unmaidened even' by that WHITE martian…(the Martai Shang/yellow-wig wearing leader of the cannabalistic white martians???)…she'd gone down the 'river of no return'/Valley Dor and instead of getting eaten by white apes or banths or sucked bloodless by the 'blue plantmen'…(which drained the martians that the white martians ate, so they were 'pure/unblooded flesh')…

In short…she could control Banths…the Barsoomian lions, wasn't a maid/virgin/helped John Carter and Carthoris to escape…and in next novel has her 'virginity' RESTORED…(she's an UNTOUCHED maiden? again…)…and you're worried about folks accepting 'mind-control/hypnosis' that kills by suggestion on an imaginary world/universe parrallel to ours?

Hmmm…..Didn't JJ Abrams just try that little stunt in his own way with the USS Enterprise, Captain Pike, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty and a really 'hot' Uhura????

and yet…in most of the novels, the people are, for the most part, NAKED AS JAYBIRDS…(whatever the heck that means)…except for some body jewelery/pasties/g-strings/loin-cloths…on the 4th body out from the SUN???

and yet…until almost the END of the 20th century, and certainly when the stories were released…the people were wearing more clothing than the average 'spring-breaker' from 1973!!!!! (more 'cotten' in a bottle of aspirin as we used to say!)

Besides…I just picked up the whole 'run' of SPACE CONQUERS (from Boy's Life) on CD from 1952-1972 for only $10!!!! and am loving life…and I have all the Barsoomian novels and just take them in stride…from the 'slavery' issues to 'nudity' and why egg-laying women needed such big breasts when they didn't nurse their young???

Hey, 'mass hypnosis/death by mental telepathy' etc….worked for at least two presidents and one former sports figure accused of murder…so why not in VSF/pulp sf????

Slish!
Sgt DWW-btod

>>and you're worried about folks accepting 'mind-control/hypnosis' that kills by suggestion on an imaginary world/universe parrallel to ours?<<

I'm not "worried" about anything. I found that particular device unusually hard to swallow, even for a turn of the century fantasy novel, and I wondered if anyone else did.

>>Hmmm…..Didn't JJ Abrams just try that little stunt in his own way with the USS Enterprise, Captain Pike, Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty and a really 'hot' Uhura????<<

An entire army was convinced through telepathy that they were being hit by arrows and died as a result in "Star Trek"??? I must have gone out for popcorn during that part.

>>NAKED AS JAYBIRDS…(whatever the heck that means)<<

It means that Jaybirds don't wear any clothing.

>>Hey, 'mass hypnosis/death by mental telepathy' etc….worked for at least two presidents<<

…ummm…huh?

But if you can swallow a Confederate Virginian being transported to Mars….

Only his life force, the body stays behind.

I liked them all, and was young enough when I read TMoM (about 12)for it not to have pinged on my continuity/realistic radar.
I also don't hear anybody questioning an illusion spell in D&D, that could kill if believed in.

Only his life force, the body stays behind.

Nor read for a long time, but I don't remember him as an ectoplasm -quite the contrary, with a body still adapted to 'our' gravity.

Unable to distinguish from reality and the fabricated sensations, the body could theoretically generate enough secondary automatic responses to kill you.

Cannot judge of their 'realism', but both 'House M.D.' and 'CSI' have an episode based on the dramatic effects of (auto-)suggestion and hypnotism?

I wanna see Dejah Thoris lay an egg

I wanna see John Carter's face when some sensitive part of his anatomy meets the egg-laying apparatus…

in next novel has her 'virginity' RESTORED…(she's an UNTOUCHED maiden? again…)…and you're worried about folks accepting 'mind-control/hypnosis' that kills by suggestion on an imaginary world/universe parrallel to ours?

Maybe that egg-laying apparatus again -some form of protective secretion perhaps, like when snails close their shell?
Then, "only the soul matters in the end", anyway…

The A.B. Akers 'Suns of Scorpio / Kregen' series is the best "I emphatically never read those Barsoom books" I know, and the local weponry is ancient -medieval rather than victorian, making all those sword fights more likely.

>>I also don't hear anybody questioning an illusion spell in D&D, that could kill if believed in.<<

That's D&D which is just a game for Pete's sake, not a novel by a respected writer.

>>I wanna see John Carter's face when some sensitive part of his anatomy meets the egg-laying apparatus…<<

Maybe he fertilizes the egg(s) *after* she lays it/them, but I dunno if we want to go there. (-:

First of the MARS books I ever read and I enjoyed it.
But I was 12 at the time.

Thuvia is definitly one of the weakest in the series. ERB had too much "author intrusion" in the story for my taste. The next novel: Chessmen of Mars, I considered weak in the first half but the second half made up for it. Sythetic Men of Mars never gelled for me…Llana of Gathol was at best weak.

On to the question. In the book it was supposed that the Green Martians expected to see the warriors and were convinced they were real. It may be an idea to have to have an element of reality to "lead" the mind to the conclusion the telepath wants i.e. no "out of the blue" solutions to being in fixes.

The only John Carter volume I did not like was the last disjointed volume #11.
Then again, Tarzan #24 seemed to have some of the same problems and feel.

I cannot believe you're discussing the virginity of Thuvia for real.

Come on it's more than implied that "Maid of Mars" means just "Girl from Mars", with 'Maiden' taken in the most wide sense of the term.

I think many of these questions will be cleared up when the movie version of Thuvia comes out, in 2019 or so.

Come on! The whole series was weak! But as a teenage boy I read (consumed) them all, along with a lot more ERB and other Pulp. I thought Thuvia was more entertaining than the first three books, and I just recently reread all four.

The illusion thing was far less troubling to me than the idea that guys, even Martians, could fight with swords for hours and days straight in the big battles without taking breaks for food, water, and rest. And I also couldn't buy that they would even use swords when they had powerful projectile weapons available that could easilly wipe out the enemy. (And I liked the illusion stuff in that episode of Star Trek too.)

Anyway, why are grown men reading this stuff anyway? ERB's work is clearly for teenage boys.

>>I thought Thuvia was more entertaining than the first three books, and I just recently reread all four.

Anyway, why are grown men reading this stuff anyway? ERB's work is clearly for teenage boys.<<

Since you're an adult and just re-read the books, you tell us.

I disagree that ERB is just for teenaged boys. The theme of deception, exploitation and manipulation by organized religion in "Gods of Mars" is thought provoking and very adult.

Reread that ERB stuff because of miniatures. Had some Bronze Age minis for a while that made me want to reread John Carter. Wanted to recapture that feeling of excitement from teen life. Didn't entirely work though. Nostalgia for the escapism of youthful fantasies…

There are many writers who are better at most aspects of the craft than ERB was. I think HG Wells, Orson Scott Card, CJ Cherryh, and Iain M Banks are good examples. But, this is, after all, Pulp.

>>There are many writers who are better at most aspects of the craft than ERB was.<<

If you mean literature, sure, but among pulp writers there were only a few.

>>this is, after all, Pulp.<<

Exactly, but among authors who wrote for pulp magazines he's one of the best. What started him writing for the pulps was that he thought that he would be able to write better than the other pulp writers of his time and proved it. I can't say that *all* of his stories were wonderful, after all, I started this topic saying that I was disappointed with "Thuvia", and there were better pulp writers, like Bradbury and Hammett, that came along later, but I think that many of his stories have value as entertainment for adults. Toward the end of his career he seemed to be coasting and his Tarzan stories began to have a "hack" quality to them, but as I mentioned before, IMO "Gods of Mars" is better than just entertainment for teenaged boys.

why egg-laying women needed such big breasts when they didn't nurse their young???

First, egg-laying mammals such as the platypus nonetheless nurse their young with milk.
OK, the breasts / teats of Mama platypus are… unobtrusive, but remember that Desmond Morris maintains that human breasts developed because of their *visual appeal* value for bipedals

I'm probably prejudiced, but I'm more disturbed by the very idea that representatives of species having evolved independently on different planets can breed true (as generally accepted in popular SF).

.

There are many writers who are better at most aspects of the craft than ERB was.

I agree that in the 'Barsoomian' genre A.B. Akers' saga of Dray Prescott on Kregen under the stars of Scorpio is easier, more enjoyable to read.