"Organisation - Irish regiments in Spanish service" Topic

Did Spain's Irish regiments, like Irlanda and Hibernia, have grenadier companies and if so did they wear the Spanish-style grenadier cap?

Yes and yes, according to my books by Bueno.

Here's Hibernia:

picture

Allen

Cheers Allen. That gives me an excuse to buy yet more figures.

Stephen

Years ago I did 12 30mm figures of Irlanda. Used a lighter blue coat and buff facings, 2 figures as grenadiers with bearskin as shown, and 10 with bicorn. I believe their battalions has six companies – 1 grenadier, 5 musketeer, when the French invaded. This was on a theoretic 1 figure to 60 soldier ratio.

GdeP

Years ago I did 12 30mm figures of Irlanda. Used a ligther blue and buff, 2 figures as grenadiers with bearskin as shown, and 10 with bicorn. I believe their battalions has six companies – 1 grenadier, 5 musketeer, when the French invaded.

GdeP

I could be wrong, but I was under impression that Spanish battalions had 4 coys per battalion at that time, and grenadier coy was in 1st battalion only (2nd and 3rd battalions had all troops in bicornes). And yes, Irish regiments organization was same as the rest of them.

Cheers

Or was it that the first and second companies of the first battalion were grenadiers, until 1808, when the French organization was adopted? That organization would fit the pre-1808 uniform.

Note that the granadero from Hibernia above is actually one who with 49 of his mates went in that year to form the Guardia de Honor de la Junta Suprema de Asturias:

link

Allen

I'm new to the Spanish but I just picked up some figures on eBay (I collect 2nd gen Minifigs). I've got Chris McNab's 'Armies of the Napoleonic Wars', which says in 1802-08 first battalions consisted of two companies of fusiliers and two of grenadiers. I'm doing 1:30 so I think that will mean 12 of each but at the moment I've only got fusiliers so the completion of the regiment will depend on what turns up on eBay.

Nafziger, The Armies of Spain and Portugal, 1808-1814 says the 1803 Regulation stipulated one grenadier and 4 fusilier companies for each of the two batttalions of a regiment. The next reorganization was in 1810, when a structure like that of the French was established.

Osprey, Spanish Armies of the Napoleonic Wars (1) says from 1802-1808, the first battalion had 2 grenadiers and 2 fusiliers and the 2nd and 3rd battalions each had 4 fusilier companies.

I would go along with Rene Chartrand, author of the Osprey book, who repeats that statement of organization in the second volume of the two he wrote {1808-1812}.

And annoyingly, I'm painting up some Hibernia (using Eagle Figures range) and I can't find any clear rear views of the Grenadier hat bag. I'm sure there was a source available for this, but i'm ed if I can find it!

2nd September 1792
3 Battalones , 2 of 4 Compañias Fusileros + 1 Granaderos, 3.o of 4 Fusileros
Compañia de Granaderos
1 Capitan, 1 Teniente 1.o, 1 Teniente 2.o, 1 Subteniente
1 Sargento 1.o 2 Sargento 2.o, 5 Cabos 1.o ,86 Granaderos
Compañia de Fusileros
1 Capitan, 1 Teniente 1.o, 1 Teniente 2.o, 1 Subteniente1.o, 1 Subteniente 2.o,
1 Sargento 1.o 4 Sargento 2.o, 8 Cabos 1.o ,8 Cabos 2.o ,136 Soldados

1802
3 Battalones , 1 of 2 Compañias Granaderos + 2 Fusileros, 2.o,3.o of 4 Fusileros
3rd was a depot battalion.
On campaign 2 regiments made a Brigade and the Grenadiers of both 1st battalions were converged to make a Brigade reserve, and the Fusiliers of the 1st converged to make the senior Line battalion.

1803
Reduced to two battalions, but seemingly they mostly remained as before.
Perhaps a confusion as to the meaning of the decree, two campaign battalions (?).

Companies operated as 2 platoons, one in charge of senior Lieutenant. In peace only 60 rof, – in theory these extra 70+ had been rotated through training and released ready to serve whenever needed. In reality the battalions found themselves filled up with raw recruits yet to hear a single musket shot.

Provincial Militia were single battalions each as 1802 of 4 Fusilier+1 grenadier.

Jan 1809 Decree to become 8 companies per battalion (uncertain if implememented)
July 1810 Decree to change to exact French structure with 3 battalions of 6 companies each.
Mar 1812 Decree, recognizing reality, each regiment 1 battalion.

From -:
M Gomez Ruiz & V Alonso Juanola, El Ejército de los Borbones Vol IV & V, Ministerio de defensa servicio Histórico Militar y, Madrid 1998
& Juanvi website

Thanks for the additional information Jeff. On a related subject, according to Keith Over's 'Flags and Standards of the Napoleonic Wars', Spanish battalions carried two flags: A King's colour and a Battalion colour. Would these have been carried by the grenadier or fusilier companies at the start of the Peninsular War?

My inclination is to do one command stand of grenadiers and one of fusiliers and give them a standard each (assuming I can obtain the necessary figures).

I did my figures for Irlanda back in the 1970's, and cannot find the source. I recall it described the 3 Irish regiments, and one Italian regiment in Spanish service.

However, the original Osprey book on the Spanish army, 1975, without a number, noted that the Light Infantry was in 12 single-battalion regiments of 1,200 men each. No grenadier company mentioned, but at that time I had info of one "Grenadier" company, and 5 chasseur companies.

The Swiss had six regiments of two battlions each – one Grenadier company and eight musketeer companies in each. Some of the French regiments that had been in Spain were organized this way also, so I wonder if the author – Otto Von Pivka – might have gotten the organization of the Swiss under Napoleon confused with the Swiss in Spanish service.

Von Pivka confirmed that the Spanish infantry of the line had 3 battalions of four companies each, 188 men and 3 officers per company. He does not mention grenadiers.

I hope someone in/from Spain can shed some light.

GdeP

I can't find any clear rear views of the Grenadier hat bag.

I don't have it with me to check, but maybe it's the Osprey MAA for the Wild Geese? Maybe someone here or any friend with a copy can let you know?

Do you have a link to the Juanvi web site, Jeff, to link here?

Nope, not in that one!

look on page 39 of Osprey's 'The Wild Geese'.It shows a black and white picture of what they beleave Regt.Hibernia looked like around 1802…with a grenadier with a red bag on the back of his spainish style bearskin.
hope that helps

Runicus