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"Figure pricing - is it just me?" Topic


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arthur181520 Mar 2010 5:05 a.m. PST

Being the age I am – old enough to remember when 48 Airfix figures were two shillings [£0.10UK]! – I think much of it is psychological. One would really have to do comparisons based upon how many minutes one had to work to earn enough to buy a figure then and now, the price of a loaf of bread &c. to make valid points.

What I would say is this: wargaming is my hobby – one I enjoy a great deal – so it comes way down the list of financial priorities, household bills, healthcare, children's education and so on. So I don't lash out large sums of money on it; I buy small-scale figures [10mm, sorry Peter, my old eyes just can't cope with your 6mm troops, I wish they could, download free rules off the internet or write my own, and make simple scenery in the 'old school' style. Personally, I'm not interested in diorama-standard modelling, and don't paint very well – but who cares? I can't see the detail when the little fellows are marching over a metre away – so I'm content with figures that aren't miniature masterpieces of sculpture.

Two things do irritate me about some firms' price structures:

1. charging significantly more for general officers &c; and
2. packaging figures in combinations of ranks and or poses that don't fit my plans, but I can't expect them to alter that just for my sake. I can live with it.

But don't get me started on scale creep and incompatability between ranges that claim to be the same size/scale!

I'm grateful to the figure manufacturers and get great pleasure from buying toys that aren't 'made in China'.

Personal logo BrigadeGames Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Mar 2010 4:57 p.m. PST

"Good thing you are not in the aerospace business,6% price reductions and faster lead times are expected.So while I don't mind somebody making a living I WOULD LOVE TO SE MY COMPANY GET A 30-40 PERCENT MARKUP.Rob"

Your company probably does have a 30-40% markup but after expenses the net income number is small. Gross profit equals sales revenue less Cost of Goods Sold (COGS). Doing this as a percentage gives a markup 5. COGS are the direct expenses for creating a product for sale. Net income is sales revenue less COGS and all expenses. This is the REAL number one has to look at.

Any manufacturer in this industry can attest that we don't have net incomes of 30-40%. One could only wish….

And as Fighting15s said – I would love to have the revenue and net income of the aerospace companies. Even if the net income is small as a percentage of sales it still is very very large.

BravoX21 Mar 2010 4:58 a.m. PST

Well I am another one who takes Perry at 1GBP per figure as the benchmark.

I can buy Front Rank for less in volume, I can buy Renegade for .50p and I can buy OG for a similar price with the OGA discount but Perry will do as a benchmark.

Even the mighty Foundry are easy to pick up brand new for under 1GBP from dealers on EBay.

They all seem to make a profit out of this, so why should I pay any more?

So if some new manufacturer comes along and asks more than 1GBP per figure I think OK fine you may ask what you want but why do I need to pay that much?

So unless your sculpts are better than the Perries I don't buy.

So to the 'quit complaining, no one forces you to buy' crowd on here I say 'quit complaining, no one forces you to make them', if you can't live with 1GBP per figure then move on and find something better to do with your time.

That said I do wonder why some manufacturers sell in such small lots, OG sell in units of 30, Renegade in units of 24, if manufacturers would prefer us to buy in bulk I have no problem with that.

Also seems to me some manufacturers have realized that to achieve a given level of income you can either sell a few at a high price or a lot at a low price and it seems to work for them, others just don't get it.

Baccus 6mm21 Mar 2010 1:39 p.m. PST

At the risk of playing Devil's advocate to the above, the Perrys both have full time jobs with GW and I don't think that their remuneration from that is ungenerous.

The Perry historical range is therefore not their principal source of income and as with all the other part-time operations out there does not have the same imperative for earning a living wage as a full-time equivalent.

I have no doubt that Perry historicals operates professionally and at a profit, but taking their pricing as a benchmark may not be most appropiate in terms of this discussion.

battleeditor21 Mar 2010 1:51 p.m. PST

Now, come along Peter, stop trying to be so logical and reasonable. Sit down and finish your bowl of gruel, but leave me a bit, won't you?

Henry
Battlegames
battlegames.co.uk

Gwydion21 Mar 2010 1:52 p.m. PST

That said I do wonder why some manufacturers sell in such small lots, OG sell in units of 30, Renegade in units of 24, if manufacturers would prefer us to buy in bulk I have no problem with that.

To which I say – Why should I be forced to buy figures I don't need/want to suit a marketing strategy?

I'm sure it makes for more effective use of moulds etc but generally I don't buy from multi-pack sellers (Peter – Baccus are an exception).
OG etc would leave me with ridiculous numbers of overbuys for many types of figure – so I'd rather buy a smaller number of more expensive individual figures and get what I want, with the bonus of quality. Ever heard that the customer is always right?

Baccus 6mm21 Mar 2010 3:15 p.m. PST

Henry,

If you bring your own spoon, I am happy for you to share my gruel. You cannot fault Chateau Baccus for hospitality. I will even let you have as much water as you can drink!

BravoX21 Mar 2010 6:37 p.m. PST

"Ever heard that the customer is always right?"
Yep, of course that means me :)

If I go to the market and buy those meal size packets of cornflakes I expect to pay a fortune for them, I am happy with minis being priced the same way as long as they offer good prices for the large boxes!

Its when they price there whole catalog on the assumption you will only buy half a dozen figures that I object to.

If I want to buy someones figures I have no problem with a hundred pound order, can't do much with less anyway can you.

So if its helps make the figures cheaper for me I have no problem in buying in quantities that are most economical for the manufacturer.

BravoX21 Mar 2010 6:44 p.m. PST

"but taking their pricing as a benchmark may not be most appropiate in terms of this discussion."

We are always being told how most manufacturers also have a 'day jobs' so I don't really see that Perry are so different but if you must then take Front Rank then, 90p if bought in quantity, GBP1.05 if you insist on buying them one by one and there figures are the heaviest 28mm on the market, compared to the skinny new boys.

Last Hussar21 Mar 2010 8:30 p.m. PST

I'm on the side of the manufacturers here- they are constantly beset by people telling them they are doing it wrong yet not doing it themselves.

The figure 60p profit has been quoted- speaking/reading some manufactures else where seems about right.

They therefore have to sell 100 figures EVERY DAY (including bank holidays) to make less that £22k- itself less than the average income.

"If they were cheaper, I'd buy more"

But you wouldn't spend more.

Lets say the price dropped to 70p, thus a profit of 30p, not 60 on a £1.00 GBP figure.

So for the maker to make the same income you would need to spend £140.00 GBP on figures (200 x 70p), rather than £100.00 GBP

"They all have day jobs"

What does this tell you about the viability of figures as a main income?

Lee Brilleaux Fezian21 Mar 2010 8:56 p.m. PST

I've been told that one manufacturer (name withheld to protect the gullible) who decided he would drop his prices. That way, he was assured, he'd pull in a lot of new customers. He lowered his prices by something like 15%.

His sales increased. By about 15%.

Which meant, of course, that he simply had to make more figures to receive the same amount of money as he did before.

Gwydion22 Mar 2010 3:51 a.m. PST

BravoX
Of course you are the customer and more power to your elbow if that's how you like to spend your money.
What I was trying to say was don't complain about other customers complaining laugh if they don't agree with your purchasing model.

If I spend £100.00 GBP I want £100.00 GBP pounds worth of figures I want- not £78.00 GBP worth and a lump of lead I will have to try and trade (and compete against all the others who invariably have the same lumps of unwanted lead).

BravoX22 Mar 2010 6:39 a.m. PST

@LastHussar.
Actual yes I did spend more, in fact I would say I have more than doubled what I usually spend in a year simply because of price reductions.

"They all have day jobs"
"What does this tell you about the viability of figures as a main income?"

Well to be honest why do I care, over the last 40 years of buying minis somehow or other the industry ha survived and there are far more manufacturers today than when I started so what does THAT say …

and if Baccus is correct and Perry have a well paid 'day job' and still manage to achieve the output (both volume and quantity) they do then no one should be trying to do this full time. :)

BravoX22 Mar 2010 6:41 a.m. PST

@MJS
So Renegade cut their prices by over 50%, and having never bought a single Renegade figure before I went and bought GBP1500 worth of them and by all accounts a lot of other people did the same.

so guess we can swap anecdotes all day long… :)

In any case 15% is not massively significant and it doesn't take much nous to figure out that that isn't going to cause a sea change in sales. Of course a lot depends on 15% from what to what and at the end of the day a 15% drop isn't going to make people buy figures they don't like.

BravoX22 Mar 2010 6:50 a.m. PST

@Gwydion
Yep understand your point:)

nycjadie22 Mar 2010 7:32 a.m. PST

Front Rank are 90p in the UK? That's about $1.30. They're $2.25 USD in the U.S.

1815Guy23 Mar 2010 5:55 a.m. PST

This isnt just about the headline cost per figure, its much more complex than that. Its partly about the cost of an army, how much people are prepared to spend overall on their hobby, and how starting low can let you grow your spend as one gets a bit more informed, enthusiastic or discerning.

The new 20mm hard plastics have got me buying again after a period when, as a grey haired ole gamer who also remembers the 2 shilling Arifix bags I thought I had all the figures I could use. And loads more unpainted hidden around the house which I guess will never be painted up.

I tried a couple of boxes of Valiant when I saw them at Derby show, next thing I know one year down the line is that I now have £100.00 GBP worth of these things waiting to be painted, a whole load of WW2 armour kits stacking up next to them, and a further load of new WW2 reference books and rule/scenario books on my shelves. Starting with Armourfast, I soon went up to higher quality kits from other manufacturers. Some of those Japanese 1:72s are just mini versions of their superb 1:35 scale tanks. Luvverly. I'm now regularly browsing the on- line vendors daily for suitable AFVs to complete my armies with posh kits and resin models. I couldnt see me chasing £8.00 GBP tank kits at all, this time last year.

So from contented Nappy 15mm and 25mm Ancient player with nowt for WW2 (save a few hundred old H&R 6mm vehs) there must be quite a few hundred quids worth of kit dotted about the house now. Would I be doing this if there wasnt the entry point of cheap plastic? No, not at all.

Not only that, but I like the hard plastics so much I am now looking at Napoleonics again with that glint in my eye and the thought that I might well start off with 25mm hard plastics in that scale. I already have 30 sq feet of Adlers for 6mm for Grand Armee/V&B, about 50sq feet of 15mm Age of Eagles/NB, and now Im looking at starting up with 25mm just for GdeB. Would I pay £1.00 GBP a figure to start 25mm/28mm Nappy? Nope. But at £14.00 GBP a box Im just about ready to start on that slippery slope once again. When HAT bring out their hard plastic Prussians I will be in there big time with my cheque book.

It takes all sorts to make this industry work – part time, full time traders, hi quality models/figures and low end toy-grade offerings. Pricing is not about how much it costs ot make the stuff, but about how much the market segment will bear. GW and Foundry have added so much value to their basic business formula that they have moved the whole goalposts. And yes, Ive bought my two lads a Warhammer army each, and expanded it over time. Its still cheaper than going for regular bowling/cinema/burgers day out with them. There may well be room for that £7.00 GBP figure in the market, just as there is a need for the 20p plastic sodyer.

Marc the plastics fan23 Mar 2010 8:53 a.m. PST

And Dave wants 90p for a Minifigs 25mm. Seems steep compared to Renegade. Surely once cost of moulds have been recouped (back in the 70's for Minifigs?) then there is more room for sensible pricing.

GarrisonMiniatures23 Mar 2010 10:02 a.m. PST

The 70s were 40 years ago, I would hope that Minfigs have replaced most of those moulds by now…..and sensible pricing includes a sensible profit -enough to replace moulds, enough to pay for time spent. The biggest thing from my point of view would be that.

Marc the plastics fan24 Mar 2010 5:07 a.m. PST

Fair point GM, but the replacement mould costs surely should not make the figures as expensive as current "new" ranges, where the sculptor needs to be paid, masters cast in readiness for production moulds etc.

Also, as an "historic" range, I wonder if they price is realistic, but maybe that is the old volume v price argument. Unfortunately, I have been spoilt by the Renegade offer, and 50p is a far better price for more "modern looking" figures. I like my Minifigs, but not sure how many newcomers to the scale/periods would choose them at this price. perhaps collectors will make the market. When I see dave I shall gently nag him on this point.

I have bought some of your figures, and bought yours in pref to Minifigs last year as the price for 7YW generals I felt was too much compared to your pricing – but that was only for a few figures.

Buy the way – any luck with the Starship Troopers figures I sent you a while back?

RedAce24 Mar 2010 10:44 p.m. PST

You can't realistically charge more than people in the hobby will pay. Some years ago, role-playing gamers nearly all used figures. Then the prices rose steeply and now hardly anyone uses them and the market is gone and many companies that made them are gone.
This could happen to wargames and to a certain extent, I think it already has – I've seen potential wargamers who didn't become wargamers because of the prices. Not because they are too stingy to pay, but because they can't – they just haven'y the cash to spare. If this does continue, I see a day when we'll all mostly be playing on computers, with graphics instead of figures.
Yeah, there will always be those who can and are willing to pay high, but they may find it harder and harder to find opponents who also can. And these will probably be established reasonably well-off people. The beginners who are the future life-blood of any hobby are mostly young and and a bit strapped for cash – with sky high prices, they may have to find other pursuits and in a few years its "Bye-bye hobby".

Timmo uk25 Mar 2010 3:56 a.m. PST

Something I've noticed is both Skytrex with their O gauge model railways and TM Terrain with their large size model soldiers have both moved sideways into other hobby areas where I suggest the typical 'spend' is greater than in wargaming.

To return to the Perry £1.00 GBP benchmark – I think it is valid. It defines a level of quality against a price for that quality. That other makers choose to charge more is up to them but then they shouldn't be surprised if those like me spend elsewhere where we feel we are getting better value for money.

For example I love my old Minifigs 25mm but not so much that I'd now pay 90p per casting when I can pick them up for perhaps a third of that second hand, as for many they are no longer desirable but I don't expect Caliver will miss my custom one bit given how busy I hear MF are.

BravoX25 Mar 2010 4:14 a.m. PST

Sorry RedAce but that is just fantasy.

Prices for Historical Minis are not sky high, in fact they are much cheaper than any GW range and GW seem to be doing just fine with the supposed cash strapped young.

Even leaving aside all the cheap plastic 28's now available there is a vast range of dirt cheap 1:72 plastics readily available anyway.

My 'cash strapped young' have far more money today than I ever did at there age and somehow or another we managed to build armies. If wargaming or at least wargaming with minis does ever die out it won't be because of the cost of minis.

BravoX25 Mar 2010 4:24 a.m. PST

@Marc & Others
MF like Hinchliffe were good in their day but don't really compare to modern sculpts so to many people these ranges would not be appealing whatever the price.

I see both as really being marketed to those who already have existing armies from the 70s still trying to complete them or expand them and as such price is a secondary consideration to them.

So IMHO demand is undoubtedly low and not really price sensitive so a higher price would be justified.

Marc the plastics fan25 Mar 2010 7:10 a.m. PST

Bx – you may well be right. But I cannot be tempted back to them at these prices. Maybe deeper pockets than mine are required. It just seems a lost opportunity, but that is economics

GarrisonMiniatures25 Mar 2010 9:38 a.m. PST

Actually most of my sales are to 'new' customers rather than people completing/expanding old armies. In some cases, they are people who sold their old Garrison armies and nostalgia has kicked in.

One thing to remember is that we are talking about a large number of specialist figures. Some of these have very few sales and costs such as the sculpting and moulds are very high per figure. Also, high sales means that you can afford a mould for each figure rather than only a couple of impressions of a figure on each mould. The difference in time to cast 30 figures when the mould has 10-15 of that figure on it is a lot different to casting using 1-3 figures per mould.

As far as price sensitive, I suspect that you may be rightish about that – I suspect that I would make as much 'profit' for less effort if I sold some figures – certainly the Rose 20mm – as 'collectors items' at twice the current price.

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