"Figure pricing - is it just me?" Topic

I wondered what the opinion was of fellow gamers about the continuing price rises seen in the hobby. My interest was sparked by seeing the new figure from the "WarCanton" stable the other day. The figure looked great, and on checking the manufacturers (aPolish company) was surprised that these 28/30mm figures are retailing at 7-9 Euro each (approx 6-7 GBP). Lovely figures, but expensive.

Even GW or WF figures are about half this price, and they ARE expensive.

So what's the feeling out there? I might get one or two as really special characters for a dwarven army, but I couldn't even contemplate fielding a full squad with these figures at these prices.

(I guess if there was some compatibility, I could get OG or other "bulk" figure manufacturer, and they "top up" the units with these specials, but at 7 GBP a pop, I am not sure I do it often.

Seven quid for ONE figure? Not one pack? Even if it is mounted, I'd call that 'out of my price range'. I think a quid a figure is expensive, but I will and do pay it. I wouldn't be prepared to pay seven times that.

If other folks are, well good on them and on the vendor. But at that price I am guessing they are not going after the wargame market.

For 28mm I take the Perrys as my bench mark. I like the quality of the sculpts although I think they could improve their casting quality. A £1.00 GBP per foot figure seems fair. Therefore any more than £1.00 GBP per figure and I'd think twice. Easy for me since I only really own Perry stuff in 28mm.

Minifigs old style 25mm are now up at 95p so relatively they feel expensive.

I'm told people think AB are expensive – I guess they are but I like 'em so I'll pay it.

£7.00 GBP per figure no matter how good is silly money IMHO.

Aside from outrageous anomalies like the seven quid figure, there is a deeper problem here with figure pricing. In reality the 28mm historical figure is now from 95p to £1.40 GBP for your standard rank and file. I've always thought it a bit of a con to pay extra for officers and standard bearers anyway. Sure, the manufacturer might not sell as many of them and they cost the same to sculpt and produce, but in this day and age with a progressive and well thought out casting policy as far as the mix of figures in a mold it really shouldn't happen any more.
Cutting to the chase, what other industry or art depending on what you might want to call wargaming would stomach the pricing levels of nearly all of the relative newcomers to the market. I'll explain:
1. Nine times out of ten we're buying something that we haven't seen. Until we have it in our hands we don't know about the quality, style and compatibility issues of a newcomers range
2. We take it on trust that the newcomer will actually deliver the product, how many of us buy figures from new manufacturers online and probably never see the faces behind the business, another leap of faith
3. We also take it on trust that the newcomer is going to finish the range. How many times has a range collapsed, the manufacturer has altered priorities or jumped onto a new bandwagon and left collectors of the original range in the lurch – or simply closed up shop?
4. In nearly every other industry or art I can think of newcomers to the market DO NOT charge the premium price of established companies with an existing reputation. Jumping in with four figures at a fiver is reasonable if you have or manage to establish a track record of consistent quality, availability and trust. Premium pricing figures from the outset, to me at least, seems to indicate an unrealistic expectation of the value of your products – before you have established any sort of reliability and quality.

I fully understand terms like "industry norm" for pricing. I also appreciate that it is expensive to design, sculpt, produce and market a new range (whether you are established or a new comer), but in virtually every industry I can imagine or have experience with, return on investment is a longer term goal – not an immediate fix.

Some manufacturers have established themselves as a premium product, AB is a good example of this, well done for that, but not for me. I mainly wargame in 28mm and I can't understand why I can buy a perfectly nice OG figure for example for 70p or thereabouts (in the 30 figure packs of course) and then pay double that if I go elsewhere – essentially I am getting the same product.

I presume the OP is referring to these figures:

shop.dwarftales.com

My understanding is that on the fantasy/scifi side, there are a number of customers willing to pay premium price for a few very nice figures, to be used for display, army centerpieces or for skirmish gaming. And these sort of models are presumably aimed at those customers.

I'm told people think AB are expensive – I guess they are but I like 'em so I'll pay it.

You should live in Australia. Essex 15mm are more expensive than AB Figures there.

The UK is in general very cheap for wargames figures. Businesses, especially part-time businesses, that cast their own ranges can afford to sell cheaper figures (part-time businesses can do so because there is another income). And the trouble is UK wargamers get used to these low prices and complain about the commercially realistic prices charged by others.

Small businesses that use contract casters have far greater costs of production that means their prices have to be higher. Some small figure companies in Europe charge a lot for their packs compared with the UK largely because they use a contract caster.

"So what's the feeling out there?"

Not sure how to respond to this. Companies can charge whatever the like for figures and good luck to them. If something is too expensive, I won't buy it, but people have different definitions of 'too expensive'.

I've pretty much given up on 28s etc now as they are too expensive for me in all sorts of ways (time to paint, storage space etc as well as purchase price).

Problem is, that no matter how pricey, there are gamers out there with enough disposable income that they DO buy these pricey figures. Look at the Merc SF figures. Gorgeous, but I think $10.00 USD US each!

The prices for the figures the OP referred to are well in line for that market, just look at what Rackham were charging for Confrontation characters. If you want a small number of drop dead gorgeous figures for RPGs or skirmish games it's affordable. Only a loon would want an army of them..(Looks in box containing nothing but Wolfen, shuts up).

In my experience prices have been coming down on figures lately. I know that in the last two years I've bought more figures for less money than anytime before that.

I do buy infinity figures and they are in the $5-10 each or so price range but they are worth it to me and I don't need that many of them. I don't think they are too expensive for the quality.

I don't have that much disposable income but I do like my hobby and if a figure is nice enough then I don't think $10 USD is too much for it, or even $20. USD And if it is a bigger kit certainly significantly more is not unreasonable either.

The Cascuda from Infinity is $60 USD and yet it is a really neat looking model, I think it is probably worth it. If I played a Combined army I would have one.

Problem is, that no matter how pricey, there are gamers out there with enough disposable income that they DO buy these pricey figures. Look at the Merc SF figures. Gorgeous, but I think $10.00 USD USD US each!

Why is that a problem? If a company wants to sell a very few miniatures to the very few people in the segment of the market, so be it.

Doug

Everything is more expensive, lately, but as Pictors said, I have paid less for figs over the past year. That has been due to Foundry 20% off sales that I have taken advantage of. I do not expect those sales to continue indefinitely.

I have limited my figure-buying horizon drastically due to my age and time availability which has limited my fig purchases. I am not beginning new time periods, merely completing my ACW armies (whatever completing means when it comes to miniture armies-there is always something else needed to complete the armies.)

The market will limit prices. The sales associated with the recession has shown that.

I agree that the "market" will charge what the market will pay! I am not an RPG-er, so for me, these great looking figures would be very much in the "special" category for 'heroes' in my small Fantasy armies (Presently Elves / Undead / and a few Goblins/Orcs). Maybe on balance, if there was a good, compatible range of Dwarves in Plastic, then the overall cost/balance would be justifiable (for me at least).

Each to his / her own!

Lovely figures though!

I think it's reasonable that those selling single heroic figures that are well and individually sculpted are able to get something for their efforts.

It takes a lot more effort to sculpt a nice figure. The mold is more difficult to make and won't last as long.
And you sell a lot fewer figures of the same kind than you do of a napoleonic line infantryman.

And £7.00 GBP for a single figure is well within the GW range – if you look at figures that are not line infantry. It is incidentally the listed price for an Imperial Guard Stormtrooper Sergeant. A named character is rather in the £8-10 range.

Why is that a problem?

It does set an unsettling precident.

I'm a small scale skirmish player and I won't buy minis at those prices. Heresy miniatures is about the cut off point for me. Price versus quality is acceptable. I do sometime splurge on a really nice mini like something from Hasslefree, but only when the US dollar is really strong against the GBP.

Some of our rank and file figures cost $1.00 USD each just for the casting. Other figures we produce cost in the $6-8 range for the castings. With that in mind, you can see how hard it is to recoup your investment for a decent sculptor producing a decent figure. You also have to include packaging, mold making and distribution costs into that number. If you have casting machinery, you need to factor in purchase and maintenance of the equipment.

Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com

Also, the "explosion" in 28mm plastic Historicals does not seem to have had an effect on the price of metal figures. I believe that this is due to the amount of time required to de-sprue and assemble the plastics. Perhaps if more followed what Hat seems to be doing…

I'm a small scale skirmish player and I won't buy minis at those prices.

Then there's your answer. Don't buy them. Buy something else instead.

I personally, for example, find it somewhat insidious (and positively brilliant) that a game company can manipulate the real-world monetary value of a miniature by adjusting it's in-game play value. But, if that's the company's MO, all I have to do is not buy the minis.

Will somebody else buy them?
Probably.

Will the company miss my patronage?
Probably not.

Would I call that an unsettling precedent?
Nope.

Doug

A lot of the pricier miniatures come from very small companies, whose outlays I presume are disproportionate to the amount they sell, so the price goes up to compensate. I'm not a businessman or economist so I don't know if this is a sound strategy or not, but it's one I can understand.

Would I pay £7.00 GBP for one miniature? Yes, if it was one I wanted, especially given that I enjoy spending lots of time painting. If that mini takes me a week of evenings to paint, it seems like a good deal compared to some entertainments.

For an 'Eye Opener" go take a look over at Cool Mini or Not shop. They have 28mm figs going for over $22 USD a non-mounted fig…

I tend to play skirmishes, and my benchmark for starting a new game that interests me is £50.00 GBP for the minis. That will buy me 75 plastic LotR figures, 96 Renegade metals, about 25-30 Artizan pulp figures or Black Scorpion pirates, or 10 Infinity or Alkemy figures.

In all cases, I feel that I'm getting a number of minis that give a decent game – you can certainly play LotR with 30 figures on each side, and Infinity with 5. I like the Infinity and Alkemy figures a lot, and I feel they're better sculpted and more dymanic than a lot of minis. I wouldn't pay £5-£10 for a poor mini. As a painter, I will take more time to paint a really nice mini well.

I would be happy to pay that kind of money for a leader or hero figure for a bigger army – I will lavish more time and care on an army centrepiece than on the rank and file, and I don't have to pay that kind of money for every figure in the army. There's a 28mm mini at every price point from £0.30 GBP to £30.00 GBP in this hobby, so it's not like you're being excluded – you will find something affordable.

Unless there was some sort of cartel pricing going on, the price of miniatures doesn't get me too excited. There are cheaper ranges, there are expensive renages, there is plastic and there is eBay, so plenty of choice. What would be a pyschological barrier to me is the thought that I could never do a figure justice with my just about competent painting skills, if it is £5.00 GBP plus in price.

To return to thoughts of the original post what has alarmed me over the last few years is, due to the weak pound the Wings of War models shot up in price to not far off double their entry level. Typically you'd pay about £6.00 GBP when Series 1 first appeared in the UK now they are more like £9/10. So a range went from being amazing value to rather pricey (IMHO) in the course of about a year. As mentioned exchange rates not corporate greed or anything else caused this but I know these models crossed over the price/value threshold and in the process of doing so curtailed a lot of plans of those I know to get into 1/144 WW1 big time.

I think a lot of it depends if you're doing skirmish gaming or building large armies. For skirmish gaming where you may only need three or four of a certain range, then you can justify the high prices. But, if you're like me and need several units of 25mm Bengal Lancers I can pay around $70 USD for 12 Perrys or the same amount for 30 Old Glory figs. Since money is tight and once I've painted and based them they look pretty good, I have to go with the cheaper alternative.

Why complain?
Do you moan because you don't own a Roller?
This is a hobby, no one is forcing you to buy!

If a firm has to charge this price to stay is business then that is their choice.

They think the quality of their figure is worth it and maybe you do too or you wouldn't be complaining!

I don't dispute their right to charge whatever they like for their product. I do however, claim and exercise my right to complain about that price (or support someone else complaining about it).

Seriously, complaining about price is as much a part of this hobby as buying miniatures you'll likely never get around to painting.

I think a quid a figure is expensive

Ah, ignorance is bliss eh?

I've always thought it a bit of a con to pay extra for officers and standard bearers anyway. Sure, the manufacturer might not sell as many of them and they cost the same to sculpt and produce, but in this day and age with a progressive and well thought out casting policy as far as the mix of figures in a mold it really shouldn't happen any more.

what a load of tosh.

For skirmish gaming where you may only need three or four of a certain range, then you can justify the high prices.

They arent "high" prices then are they?

To a large extent wargamers benefit from prices which are kept artificially low by the structure of the business environment. At the risk of 'doing an Ansell', I think that the reason why some figures seem so expensive is that the vast majority are too cheap.

What it comes down to is that the entry costs to someone setting up their own range are relatively low. I should know as it is exactly how I started. Someone with the ability to sculpt, or who knows someone who can do it for him can set up their own range fairly quickly. Because they don't have the overheads that a full time operation will have they can afford to sell cheap and still turn a profit.

This in itself is not a bad thing, as I would have thought the vast majority of the manufacturers you see operate in this fashion. It can give a welcome leg-up to those such as myself who got on to become full time and keeps a constant supply of creative talent coming through.

However, it does cause a problem when 75% of the supply chain in an industry does not really have to make enough profit to support themselves. It acts as an artificial brake on pricing. As consumers we can immediately see that as an unalloyed good, but there is more to it than that. It means that there are more 'here today, gone tomorrow' ranges, it means that the frustration of incomplete lines proliferates and it means that levels of customer care, service and professionalism can reach new lows. A talented amateur sculptor does not always make a competent small businessman.

And before you scoff and say that £1.00 GBP for a 28mm figure is too much because it only contains a few pence worth of metal, it may be worth looking at the huge range of costs that need to be covered by a full time business. Here's just a flavour:

Premises Rent
Premises gas and electric
Premises insurance
Premises security
Internet access
Business Rates
Employee wages
Employee National Insurance
Employee insurance
Employee protective clothing
VAT
Corporation Tax/Personal Tax
Credit Card/Paypal transmission charges
Bank Charges
Third party liability insurance
Equipment maintenance and testing

I'll stop there, but the list could continue. All of these items slice just a few pence here and there off the profit made per figure, and at the end of it, there might be some left with which to pay the business owner.

Now in order to cover this and earn a decent wage the owner can try and raise prices to cover the costs. However in the crowded 28mm market there will always be someone who can offer a cheaper alternative so he daren't push too hard as he will seem to overpricing.

The price of 28mms effectively sets the levels for the smaller scales below them and the effect cascades down.

This is not a whinge, more an explanation of how things are. Wargames figures are very cheap considering the huge input of skilled labour that goes into them. GW have actually got a pricing structure which is more realistic and have created their own marketplace in which to present it. They have it right.

Peter

Peter is completely right in all that he says.

His reference to 'doing an Ansell' refers (I presume) to Foundry owner (and former GW supremo)Bryan Ansell's late 1990s manifesto on figure pricing. Bryan said that there weren't enough wargamers out there to support the manufacturers at anything like a sensible financial basis for doing business, and that he thought figures were too cheap.

He managed to say this in a fairly undiplomatic way, and people didn't like his tone. This was unfortunate as his message was true enough. Very few wargames businesses would exist at all if the owners weren't demented hobby enthusiasts, because there's so little money to be made.

I recall Dave Babb of Stone Mountain Miniatures saying, "If you think you can make a living in this hobby, take a look at all the junk vehicles behind the dealer hall." He was right. I have known more than one dealer report that his convention earnings were wiped out by the catastrophic mechanical failure of his fifteen year old van on the way home.

Indeed, I can't think of another field where the customer base actually seems to resent the idea that those who provide the various things needed for their hobby need to make a living.

Actually Howard I reckon that if both Fender and Kawasaki Heavy Industries could make their products cheaper I'd be a happier bunny. :)

Plus the maker has to give a store a 33% mark up or they will not bother stocking it.
Even if you buy direct they cannot afford to give an individual the same discount that they give a store as you will be buying in smaller quantities.

This is a very strange hobby
In most other hobbies people boast about the top class kit they own and how much it cost
That is true in computers and golf and most others

What's ironic is that Foundry then effectively creates even more small manufacturers through whatever meltdown happened there.

Rich

"Actually Howard I reckon that if both Fender and Kawasaki Heavy Industries could make their products cheaper I'd be a happier bunny. :)"

Well certainly, Jeff. I'd like a super-bargain-priced Telecaster like the one Wilco Johnson played on the early Dr Feelgood albums. But neither you or I seriously expect the Fender guitar company to cut their prices to the point of having to close its factory and run the business on weekends out of a garden shed. Or, indeed, shut the whole thing down because it was no longer worth the trouble and instead get a part-time job at Tescos.

Nor would we suggest that if everything was a lot cheaper there would be an upsurge of sales for, I don't know, 25mm ture scale Indian Mutiny figures. That's a classic wargamer suggestion.

Interesting comments, thanks all.

This is indeed a strange hobby. I suppose my original comment was that paying 8 – 10 GBP for a 30mm sculpt is simply not a move I would contemplate as I am primarily an historic gamer, and want the "big" regiments etc. For the small-scale skirmisher / RPG-er I can see that devoting time and effort into individualising and painting up a small force of "unique" figures is appealing.

Overall, the cost for these non-comparative forces may well be similar, and that's what the hobby is about – diversity.

As for the "business model". The comments about the vagaries of the cost/profit line are valid ones. The "stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap" approach depends on quantity sales (and re-sales), and I imagine appeals to the likes of me, who want big armies. Whereas at the other end of the scale are the small, unique high value models.

Thanks for contributions. Interesting thoughts by all.

I love it, how often does this crop up? Once a month? Once every 3 months?
If you don't want to pay the money, DON'T BUY IT.
I always wonder how many folk who complain about paying an extra few pence for wargames figures "have to" change their car every 2 years for a new model? Or "Must have" a new iPhone every 6 months?

I'd guess Peter and Howard are directing their statements toward those buying 1GBP minis, but I want to clarify my position, just in case.

I sincerely appreciate the hard work and dedication of most if not all the manufacturers I buy from. I really talk up miniatures from companies that are struggling or just starting out. I want you guys to succeed. I don't want anyone to have to drive a 15 year old van, eat canned cat food, and live in a leaky shack so I can have my toys.

Having said that, if 7-9 Euro is the price a 28mm mini should go for, then I might have to be content with the minis I already have.

<<Indeed, I can't think of another field where the customer base actually seems to resent the idea that those who provide the various things needed for their hobby need to make a living.>>

Well, maybe banking…..

As a punter, I say wargaming industry talent is grossly underpriced.

Having said that, if 7-9 Euro is the price a 28mm mini should go for, then I might have to be content with the minis I already have.

Or perhaps different minis should go for different prices? On the one hand you will have the decent ordinary models that will be bought at moderate prices in great bulk, while on the other hand there might be more specialised or very high quality figures sold in small numbers at high prices to a smaller audience of connoisseurs.

Perhaps a good comparison could be wines: there are the ordinary wines sold in great bulk at moderate prices, and then there are the higher end wines sold in small numbers at high price to a more specialised audience.

Or perhaps different minis should go for different prices? On the one hand you will have the decent ordinary models that will be bought at moderate prices in great bulk, while on the other hand there might be more specialised or very high quality figures sold in small numbers at high prices to a smaller audience of connoisseurs.

Which, if I'm not grossly mistaken, is a perfect description of the current situation. I can buy soft, low-detail figures from 90p to a highly detailed figure for £7, to suit its purpose.

No need for anyone to get in a tizz, because there's always something on the price-quality curve to suit your needs.

For a glimpse at the real money-no-object class of buyer, take a look at Tradition's 54mm painted figures. Collectors think nothing of buying what for a many a wargamer are simply painted, highly expensive figures.

NIce one Reader Name 001 you've managed to expertly blend rudeness with no attempt to state your point. Well done and why bother?

Everyone should have to run their own miniatures company for a year, then we can see how many manage the "70p" a figure mark when it's their own time and money at stake ;-)

My gripe is less that a 'collectors' figure is £10.00 GBP a pop, but that some wargames figures are £10.00 GBP a pop because I'm also paying for the fluff and stats that come with that figure.

Confrontation springs to mind. Gorgeous minis of which I own precisely none, because as an RPGer I only wanted the odd one and didn't want to shell out twice what I'd pay for a rank and file figure simply for a bit of cardboard that states "Ethel the Elf can use her blast powers twice a round, and boosts the morale of all beekeepers within 12 inches…"

Actually, I like to moan that cars are too expensive as well.

Moaning is good.

Mind you. I use 1/72 plastics, and recent price surges have taken those up to almost 15p a figure………..

And I went to plastics precisely because I did not want to/could not afford to pay £1.00 GBP a pop for 28mm metal.

See, supply and demand curves do work

My ranges are old figures that I like and want to keep going – nostalgia, if you like. Except that quite a few people do actually prefer them to 'modern' figures. As far as cost goes, I charge 60-70p for a 25mm infantry figure. On that basis, and bearing in mind the small number of sales, I can't justify producing any new moulds. I do produce new moulds – it's my hobby. To justify new moulds and make it viable I would have to charge at least £1.00 GBP a figure and maintain current sales – I know that if I increased prices to that level I wouldn't sell any figures.

So, in terms of the 'real' cost, my figures are grossly under priced.Yet on Ebay I see some Garrison figures described a 'rare and OOP' going for ridiculous amounts (others don't sell at all).

So, perhaps I should start selling at £2-3 a figures as collectors items instead?

Good thing you are not in the aerospace business,6% price reductions and faster lead times are expected.So while I don't mind somebody making a living I WOULD LOVE TO SE MY COMPANY GET A 30-40 PERCENT MARKUP.Rob

I think I could comfortably live on the profit from an $25 USD million F16 for quite some time even with a 6% price reduction.
Not sure a 30-40 percent markup on a $2 USD figure would keep me in caviar for very long at all!

And I would LOVE my company to have the turnover of an aerospace business.

Profit, turnover, and margin are all variables with widely different vales depending on the business model and commercial environment.

Pete – with all the appearances of your excellent little men in the mags and shows I thought you DID have the turnover of an aerospace business :-)

Come on guys – grow up. Stop trying to compare apples and pears. It is ridiculous to compare BAe to Baccus etc.

Our hobby producers must do this out of love, because there have to be easier ways to make a living, so cut them some slack, buy the figures you like, or downscale (hmmm, 6mm figures, now there's an idea)

Some figures have to be expensive to support the organisation that makes, distributes and sells them.

For 15mm AB Figures, for example, there are six full-time people that need supporting in to get them out there: the sculptor (Tony Barton) who receives royalties, the three full-timers at Eureka in Oz (Nic, John and Tony), me in the UK, and Rob in the US. Five of those overlap on Eureka Miniatures. And Nic also uses part-timers for casting and packing in rush periods.

Even though our customers buy a lot of AB and Eureka figures, there are a lot of costs to cover (as Pete of Baccus outlines), and the figures therefore have to be a certain cost to support everyone.

Part-timers with a regular income from another job can afford to offer products at the cheapskate prices that some UK wargamers seem to expect that everyone should charge (because they only know the price, not the value, of everything).

I'm fairly open about what I earn from working full-time on Fighting 15s: last year (2008-2009) I didn't pay tax, which means my personal income was sub-£6,000 a year, and my net profit margin is about 12%. It's usually better, but last year was exceptional because of Janet's illness. Yet some customers get funny because I don't offer discounts. If I offered discounts I couldn't afford beer. :-) And if I were to earn close to the Isle of Wight's average salary (25% or so below UK national average), I would have to virtually triple existing prices for the same volume of sales.

I do it because I enjoy it, and because I am fundamentally unsuited to working under anyone; I can afford to work at such a low income because I have a tolerant wife who earns far more, and because through chance I no longer have a mortgage and which therefore avoids the need to earn another £10,000 or so a year.

I can understand Bryan Ansell's point about wargames figures being too cheap. That might be the first and last time we agree on anything. :-)

I can understand why what might be a small-run figure needs to be sold at £7.00 GBP to cover its costs.

Ian