"French Guard Infantry Shakos" Topic

One of the distinctions between the Fusiliers Grenadiers and the Fusiliers Chasseurs (Middle Guard) was that the Fusiliers Grenadiers had white chevrons on their shakos.

Recently I have seen a few illustrations that indicate Young Guard grenadier outfits had those same white chevrons on their shakos. Are these mistakes, or did all guard grenadier regiments have those white chevrons on the shako?

From the illustrations in the book I have, "Officers and Soldiers of the French Imperial Guard" Vol. 1, the Tirailleurs and Flanquer-Grenadiers both had white "V"'s on their shakos. For full-dress they also both had red cords.

That would tend to verify my suspicion that all guard grenadiers in shako had the white "V" chevrons on the shako.

Do you have anything specific on the Conscrit Grenadiers?

Many thanks

I'll take a look at the book I have when I get home this evening. Dean

According to the text of my source, the Tirailleurs are the conscript-grenadiers; Napoleon thought that the term conscript could be viewed as disparaging, so Tirailleurs was used. Here's something that may be of interest also, the same book shows Conscript-Chassuers with white "V"'s on their shakos. It also has Tirailleur-Chasseurs, without distinguishing "V"'s on their shakos. Go figure.The Skirmishers of 1813-1815 assigned to the Grenadiers are shown with plain shakos. Hope this has helped rather than confused. Dean

Dean,

Thoroughly confusing, as expected. Please name your source. My copy of Funken shows Fusilier Chasseurs with the inverted white chevrons, and I know that's wrong.

So which units had them and which didn't? It seemed to make sense that the grenadier corps all had them and the chasseurs not. But Dean's source seems to claim otherwise. Can anyone else clear this up?

This is the book link (Volume 1). And I got mine off of ebay several years ago for pretty cheap. I shouldn't have mentioned the Conscript-Chasseurs' shako – theirs were the only ones with the white V's. No other illustration of the Foot Chasseurs show this.

Holy Cow! I looked at the customer reviews and I see I posted one back in 2003! I don't even remember doing it – I gave it 5 stars so it must be good Seriously, I hope you get a definitive answer. Dean

Dean,

Can you let us know which units are shown with the white inverted chevrons? There is no way I can buy this book right now – especially since I have a friend who owns it. That would be you.

Can you let us know which units are shown with the white inverted chevrons?

Pretty much all of the units wearing shakos in the the corps of Grenadiers; all except for the ones identified as Skirmishers of the Young Guard from 1813-15. When you say "inverted" do you mean upside-down? The "V"s on the shakos are just that. I would say that unless you're referring to the "Skirmishers" of 1813-15, in Bardin-style jackets with blue lapels and pointed red cuffs, you should be fine with white "V"'s. Dean

Dean,

It's a matter of semantics. You say "V"s. I say inverted chevrons, with the assumption that chevrons normally point "up." It's the same thing.

We also have terminology issues with "Skirmishers." Do you mean "Tirailleurs"? There were some 20 of these regiments eventually formed, but I would not describe them as "skirmishers," per se. The Tirailleurs were just a renaming of the "Conscrit Grenadiers" regiments, primarily because Napoleon didn't like the term "conscrit" used within the Imperial Guard, even though all Young Guard infantry were, in fact, conscripted.

So if you are saying that the Tirailleurs did not wear the white "V"s on their shakos, that leaves only the Fusilier Grenadiers, does it not? Weren't all the Young Guard members of the grenadier corps eventually called Tirailleurs?

Funken shows the Fusilier Chasseurs with the white "V"s. They show a number of YG infantry with them, both grenadiers and chasseurs (but not all). I had been assuming this was an error, but if none of the YG grenadiers had them, then maybe they were a Middle Guard uniform item, as opposed to being a "grenadier" item.

Any thoughts from the gallery? This would seem a rather fundamental uniform issue for clarification.

Dean,

Do you have a contemporary title for the troops you call "Skirmishers"? Maybe there is something to that.

I have now consulted web sites and Funken (sorry, my only comprehensive guide), and may have a grip on this.

Firstly, the Mont St. Jean web site shows no white chevrons on any shakos in the guard for that campaign. No real surprise, there.

As for the rest, it seems to be an evolutionary tale. The original idea seems to have been that all non-bearskin guard infantry were to get the white "V"s on their shakos as a guard distinction. The Historifig site and Funken show the white "V"s on Fusilier Chasseurs, as well as the Fusilier Grenadiers. However, the 1812 Grand Armee site shows no chevrons for the Fusilier Chasseurs (though they DO show them on the Flanquer Chasseurs--go figure). These two regiments, later termed "Middle Guard" were created in the 1804-06 period, were disolved in 1814, and not rebuilt for the Hundred Days.

The first Young Guard units appeared in 1809. They were the Tirailleurs Grenadiers, Tirailleur Chasseurs, Conscrit Grenadiers and Conscrit Chasseurs (2 regiments each, for a total of 8 YG regiments). All of these regiments had the white "V"s and white cords, except red cording for the Conscrit Grenadiers.

So the white "V"s (or chevrons) were on all Middle and Young Guard infantry shakos, UNTIL . . .

In 1810 all the above named YG regiments were converted to Tirailleurs (grenadier corps) and Voltiguers (chasseur corps). At this point the Tirailleurs received RED chevrons (but not top and bottom bands) and cords, and the Voltiguers had no chevrons and white cords. So from 1810 – 1813, only the Middle Guard had the white shako chevrons.

In 1813, the YG added a regiment each of Flanquer Grenadiers and Flanquer Chasseurs (Lord knows why). The grenadiers got the white chevrons and red cords. The chasseurs got no chevrons, but white cords. But this is a minor point of policy, since both regiments were disbanded the following year and probably only received the one issue of shakos.

Perhaps the Fusilier Chasseurs discontinued the white shako chevrons, or maybe they never had them. Some additional input from the group would be helpful here. But since the original YG foot chasseurs had them in 1809, it seems reasonable to conclude that the MG foot chasseurs also had them, at least until 1813. Funken and Historifig say they had them.

Ah, I see that you are as confused on your as with my assistance – my work is done here Dean

Dean,

Now you can see why I started this thread. What a confused pile of yarn!

Still hoping for input from members with more resources. I don't own "Anatomy of Glory," so I would hope maybe that source says something. Or Elting's uniform book, or some Rouselot plates.

Anyone?

Widowson,

I would be happy to try to help …. but …. now I am confused.
What is the question exactly for which you are still seeking assistance ?

Standing by,
Chuey

Rousselot No. 101
fusiliers-grendiers : fusiliers & caporaux 1806-1808 white chevrons and white band at the top
fusiliers-grendiers : fusiliers & caporaux 1809-1814 white chevrons only
fusiliers-chasseurs did not have white
no other shako-wearing garde formations covered

Richard Knötel (Elting vol 2)
fusilier grenadier 1811 – white chevrons only
fusilier grenadier 1812 – white chevrons only
1er tirailleurs 1812 – white chevrons only
conscrit-grenadier 1809 – white chevrons only
lieutenant de flanquers-grenadiers 1813-1814 – white chevrons with typical gold officer's top band (the text with this one is doudtful, and may conflate this unit with the flanquers-chasseurs – I am ok, I think, with the white chevron for the unit, but dubious of it for an officer)
flanquer-grenadier 1812 [sic – should be 1813] – white chevrons only
fusilier-chasseur 1812- white chevrons only (contradicts Rousselot, I believe Rousselot)
5th volitguers 1812 – white chevrons only (I am very dubious)
consrit[sic]-chasseur 1809-1810 – white chevrons only (I am very dubious)
2e conscrits-chasseurs 1810 – white chevrons only (I am very dubious)

I really would not trust the Knôtel myself. Well, actually I wouldn't trust either one, but I would be closer to trusting Rousselot.
If I were painting garde (in addition to painting them poorly), I would put the white chevrons on all the non-bearskin wearing gardes and caporaux of the corp de grenadiers 1806-1812. An article by Michel Pétard (Tradtion No. 83) and the Martinet, Weiland and Kolbe plates support this opinion. I would probably leave off the white top band where it was a possibility 1806-1808, as the later look was used longer and in more battles.
For 1813-1814 …. for the flanquers-grenadiers I am nto sure and would try to do some more research. For the 8e – 19e tirailleurs, I would think that white chevrons on shakos would tend to be increasingly unlikely (actually, getting any kind of shako for every member of the 14e – 19e tirailleurs was probably not happening).

Below is a list of the units I am talking about.

Chuey

1806-1808
fusiliers-grenadiers (white chevron and white top band)

1809-1810
fusiliers-grenadiers
1e & 2e tirailleurs-grenadiers
1e & 2e conscrits-grenadiers

1811-1812
fusiliers-grenadiers
1er & 2e tirailleurs (ex- 1e & 2e tirailleurs-grenadiers)
3e & 4e tirailleurs (ex- 1e & 2e conscrits-grenadiers)
5e & 6e titailleurs

1813
fusiliers-grenadiers
flanquers-grenadiers (newly formed)
1er, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e & 6e tirailleurs
8e, 9e, 10e, 11e, 12e & 13e (newly formed)

1814
fusiliers-grenadiers
flanquers-grenadiers
1er – 13e tirailleurs
14e, 15e, 16e, 17e, 18e & 19e tirailleurs (newly formed, partly from the ex- garde royale d'Espagne)

Chuvak,

Thanks for all that. I'm going to have to digest it and get back to you tomorrow. At first blush the white chevron looks like a guard grenadier corps distinction, from your perspective. In order for that to be true, a number of sources have to be wrong.

Until then,

Bill

Widowson,

Ahhhh…. messy flanqueurs (mostly) sorted ….

First unit was raised in September 1811. These are the guys whose fathers and uncles were forresters, game wardens and rural gardes. These had the green habits, and were attached to the corps de chasseurs. No white chevrons. Hunting horns on their turnbacks. White cordon for the schako. Yellow over green oval pompon.
The officiers, taken from the Old Guard, wore the regular Vieille Garde uniforms, but with a schako – this decorated around the top with a black velvet band upon which was embroidered a gold oak leaves (and no chevrons)
The unit was called "régiment de flanqueurs" at this time.
picture
The draft décrêt of formation :
picture
picture

Clock forward to March 1813 ….
A second similar unit is raised, though the number of sons of forresters was likel ypreetty low at this point.
This second unit was called the "régiment de flanqueurs-grenadiers" and was attached to the corps of grenadiers. At this time the first unit started being called the "régiment de flanqueurs-chasseurs".

The uniform for the second unit was like the first except :
(i) add the white chevrons to th schako, (ii) change the white cordon to red (iii) white eagles on the turnbacks (iv) yellow and red pompons instead of yellow over green (v) officiers top-band to have a row of stars instead of oak leaf embroidery.

The discussion of these units is mangled in "Swords Around a Throne" and many (most) English language sources. It is not surprising that Elting mangled the text for the Knötel plates about these units. There is also some mangling in French. For example, Boisselier did a nice planche of the tête du colonne o fthe flanquers-grenadiers based on an Alsatian Collection, but labeled it "1812" instead of "1813".

Two open issues :
1. Were the cuffs for the flanqueurs-chasseurs red like the flanqueur-grenadiers, or green ? I would vote for green beofre Russia (per the Weiland planche) and red after (per Würtz planche).
2. Did the flanqueur-grenadiers have a hunting horn on their gibernes like the flanqueurs-chasseurs, or an aigle? Or did both get eagles after Russia ?

Chuey

Early post-period iconography:

fusilier-chasseur and fusiler-grenadier 1810 (Vernet-Lami)
picture

tiriaileur-grenadier 1809-1810 or tirailleur 1811-1814 (Vernet-Lami)
picture

conscrit-grenadier 1809-1810 (Vernet-Lami)
picture

flanqueur-grenadier 1813-1814 (Vernet-Lami)
picture

fusiler-grenadier and 1er tirailleur-grenadier (St-Hilaire)
picture

flanquer-chasseur on right (St.-Hilaire)
picture

flanquer-grenadier on right (St.-Hilaire)
picture

Bill,

Come back at me with any questions. I am more "read-into" the topin now.

Yes, the white chevrons seem for 1806-1814 to be a pure corps de grenadiers distinction, for gardes and caporaux those not wearing bearskins.

I never really looked at this stuff in English before, and I can assure that the ratio of mangling in English language works is pretty high. If you don't have French, tread carefully, or ask an "ami" like me to look. Not that mangling doesn't occur in French – it is just lesser mangling.

Bien amicalement,
Chuey

Chuvak,

Thanks for all the help, but the net result seems to be more confusion, not less.

If you and the illustrations you show are correct, then the Historifig site (a French site) and Funken are both wrong. Funken makes many mistakes, but Historifig?

According to you, Funken would be wrong about the red chevrons on the Tirailleurs in 1810, but no surprise there.

We have been looking at pictures, but was there no written record of what was issued? As you say, even Rouselot is not 100% reliable. It seems now like the white chevrons were issued only to the grenadier corps troops, but how can we be sure?

On another subject:

Chuvak, you seem to be a very informed person. Have you ever heard of the voltiguer privates and corporals of LINE regiments wearing the colpack? I know that some Legere voltiguers wore the colpack, but how about the voltiguers in the Regiments de Ligne?

Widowson,

I agree with you "diagnoses" on errors. Please don't look at Funken too much – it causes headaches.
:-)

I am a little surprised about histofig. However, that page with the info on chevrons for chasseurs does NOT have any of Frederic's iconography.
There was a time when there was an "armies" section and a separate "uniforms" section on histofig. Lots of the armies entries had uniform info – and vice versa. Hence the current organization.
Anyway, the "armies" section pieces were usually written by a guy named Emmanuel (the actual site "owner"), and they were not as good as the work Frederick did and does today. They were kinda rough starters, just to have some content. I think we have one of those older intros still there on the site.

Anyway, the answer is to go back in the original planches, as early as possible. All the ones I checked (and I linked a few that I found on-line) keep the pattern pure : white chevrons for corps de grenadiers only.

=============================

Colbacks for any infanterie I think were pretty rare. Even in the légère, they were more seen on carabiniers than on volitgeurs. In the ligne, outside of têtes de colonne, I think only as an "emergency" substitute for a grenadiers bonnet-à-poil. For officiers, more usage might be expected, as an affectation. Some officiers wore really odd hats : civilian, confedratka, czapska, bonnet-de-police, little mortar-board looking things, fez, nightcaps, etc., etc.

Rousselot
ligne
-- colback : 30e ligne tambour-major
-- czapska : 9e ligne musicien
otherwise chapeaux/schakos and bearskins for many grenadiers

légère
carabiniers
-- bonnet-à-poil : 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, 9e, 17e, 21e, 27e
-- schako à flamme : 14e
-- colback : unspecified regiments
voltigeurs
-- colback : unspecified regiments
sappeurs
-- bonnet-à-poil : 10e, 12e, 14e, 31e
otherwise chapeaux/schakos

Boisselier (Spain – tenues de campagne)
34e ligne : grenadier in colback
55e ligne : musicien in colback
65e ligne : officier de volitgeurs & tambour-major in colback
81e ligne : tambour-major in colback
121e ligne : tambour-major in colback
1er légère : carabinier & tambour-major in colback
uspecified légère : tambour-major in colback
6e légère : fantassin (maybe carabinier, chasseur or voltigeur – can't really tell) in colback
25e légère : carabiniers in colback
18e légère : tambour in colback
otherwise chapeaux/schakos and bearskins for many grenadiers

RIGO – from an Alsatian Collection
15e légère : sappeurs in colbacks, carabiniers in bonnets-à-poil

Kolbe planches
96e ligne : sappeur in colback

Here's an article from an old Carnet de la Sabretache that describes some more "exceptions" for the Alsatian Collections:
link

I am sorry if the guys on the other thread were not too helpful. WIth no endorsement, and no responsibility for whatever trouble you might get into with Russians, here is the Margerand for $5 USD (together with the leading work on French buttons). I would not imagine that these guys were actually paying anybody any royalites, in case that would matter to you. But, who knows, maybe they paid for some license for Russia. Or maybe they will selll your credit card details to Russian hackers.
link
Here it is from the publisher of the reprint edition, for €99.00 EUR :
link
Here are libraries in the USA holding it. Many times, if you call or write nicely, the reference librarians at Brown will look for you and even send scans.
link
I don't have the book, or I would look in it for you.

Chuey

Chuey,

Thanks again. Interesting that the only line regiment wearing colpacks for anything other than officers or tete de colomne is the 34th – who have their GRENADIERS wearing them in Spain. So, still no sign of any line voltiguers wearing colpack, as I would expect.

I think the problem on the other thread was a language issue. As you say, mangling on both ends.

I think I'll keep my credit card info away from Russian hackers – :-), but thanks for all the research help. We do have a library exchange system in the US. Maybe that will work.

As for the guard shakos – I would think that this issue would have been settled long ago by wargamers who paint the Guard. I guess not. Strange.

Best regards,

Bill