"Question from a Vendor about Historicon dealer room" Topic

Lets see the convention director is also the president of the board?
VR
James Mattes

HMGS decided to move Historicon for a number of reasons, they felt they had outgrown the Host and did not have the space for tournaments (the national FOW tournament for example) and also, there were vendors who were in need of more space but could not get it and some who could not get into the hall altogether.

Also, there were attendees who referred to the Host as a dump (that would be you James among others) and also wanted the convention closer to a major airport.

Baltimore was chosen and right away, cost became an issue for many vendors (myself included). The board decided to move the con out of Baltimore and to Valley Forge, but once the word got out about the booth situation, cost again became an issue.

Bottom line is you cannot have it both ways; you either have it in a less expensive place and deal with a venue that is not fully equiped for all of your needs, or you move it to a major city and put it in a sparkling convention center equiped to handle all of your needs, but have to absorb the costs of said venue.

Now the rumor is there will be some booths, some spots available by the table.

If this comes to pass, not sure if the shirts had anything to do with it, but if they did, then good for you and for everyone who wore one.

My attitude is whatever the cost is, I'm going and we'll see if it's worth it; if I tank there, I won't go back and if enough vendors tank and don't go back, they'll get the message, with or without the shirts………………

The fundamental problem with all the arguments about the move is simply this – just because the current arrangement is not 100% satisfactory does not mean that there is a superior alternative.

Frankly I think the issue with the shirts is completely outrageous. I don't dispute that a private organization has the right to act in this way. But it is disgusting that they chose to act like a bunch of heavy-handed jackboots considering the massive and seemingly unrelenting series of incompetent actions that have been taken over the last year.

You'd think HMGS would want to tread softly and garner some support, not alienate dealers, especially ones who have been to every con and have half the attendees as customers.

Before Historicon 2009, we were told there would be no price increases for a booth in 2010 at the BCC. However, that didn't prevent the HMGS board from slipping in a modest price increase for the tables at Historicon 2009. In retrospect, the price increase for 2009 was minuscule compared to what would follow.
One of the key arguments against moving to the BCC was cost. Many a dealer and gamer balked at the prospect of paying up to $27 USD a day for parking and $140 USD or more a night for a room within walking distance of the BCC. Many of us expressed our concern that the high cost of attending Historicon 2010 at the BCC would seriously affect attendance.
When I received my dealer packet via e-mail for Historicon 2010 at the Valley Forge convention center, I couldn't believe the price increases for a dealer. I paid $270 USD for my usual two tables in 2009, but in order to properly present my products at Historicon 2010 with the same configuration, I would have to pay for two booths, a temporary business license, an extra table, an extra chair and a fee for an electrical connection, all to the tune of $895, more than three times what I had paid in 2009.
A number of dealers have described on these pages the adjustments they will have to make to their displays and exhibits in order to properly show their wares at Historicon 2010. To me it all sounds like a princess going to a pond and kissing every frog she sees in the hope one of them will turn into a prince. It is all desperation, hope against hope and futile attempts to make it happen when everyone knows it will not.
Like Dennis, I have attended every Historicon since the first one in 1984, but all good things must eventually come to an end. I'm not the kind of guy to wear a t-shirt to express my unhappiness, but I will vote with my checkbook. I hope Historicon 2010 is a success and everyone has a great time, but the HMGS Board has priced me out of serious consideration as a dealer.

I would like to attend Fall-In 2010 as a dealer, but if the HMGS Board implements the same kind of price increases that they did for Historicon 2010, I will not attend that convention either.

… Your flippant attitude is appreciated. I'm done with HMGS shows.

If my "attitude" is keeping you from the conventions maybe you should not attend anyway. I would bet if you attended 100 conventions at the same time as me there is a good chance you would never even run into me

James, I thought you were done with HMGS after Fall-In 2009. What happened?

"Many a dealer and gamer balked at the prospect of paying up to $27 USD USD a day for parking and $140 USD USD or more a night for a room within walking distance of the BCC. "

I don't know about you guys, but I just paid $116 USD a night at the Host. You know, the cheap dump of a hotel. I suspect their facility prices increase too. I am in the process of dealing with some hotels right now for an unrelated matter, but it is spooky how close all their prices are when solicited for bids. They know their market too, and while there is certainly haggling room, even the haggled prices all come in more or less the same.

At least for me, I'd rather see more dealers (as long as they had diverse and plentiful stock) at a convention than games. I can game anytime, but I cannot always see product, especially in person. I find a maddening amount of providers lack any photos of their product on line, thus making the dealers more important to me than games. But, for whatever reason, the organzition long ago decided to make games the priority, thus in large part, why this situation exists.

At the risk of sounding like an old guy, I remember when you couldn't find an empty table at Cold Wars to even put on a pick up game. Now, that problem no longer exists. I cannot help but wonder if anyone in charge has noticed this not so subtle change.

"I would like to attend Fall-In 2010 as a dealer, but if the HMGS Board implements the same kind of price increases that they did for Historicon 2010, I will not attend that convention either."

Tumbleweed,

The BOD voted a price increase for Cold Wars and FALL-IN! for 2010. Prices were increased by 5 dollars, for inflation. There has been no other talk of increased prices for FALL-IN!, so you should be fine. I was asked if I wanted to convert the dealer hall into booths for FI. I refused. I figured that moving the show away from Gettysburg, and putting it on a holiday weekend was enough trouble for me to handle, I wasn't about to invite more on to myself…

Andy

"The organization decided long ago to make the games the priority"………..

Give the man a cigar, he nailed it.

This past Cold Wars was my best in four years, sales were excellent on Thursday, the new added day.

I thought traffic in the hall was steady pretty much everyday, including Sunday morning.

Each night after the hall closed and I returned to the Host from dinner, I'd walk the function rooms to check out the games. For the most part, the games were light, especially Saturday night; in the dillpickle room, there were about ten games going on when I got there, including a jaw droppingly huge AWI game in 54mm.

The parking lot where my vehicle was parked was virtually empty, this on Saturday night.

I've heard one of the main reasons to move the con was to allow for tournaments which HMGS has no room for at the Host. Also, the move closer to major airport was needed to attract more attendees.

Bottom line is the focus has shifted to games, attendees flying in and at the bottom of the list is the dealers because if we were a higher priority, our costs would not be going through the roof.

There is no need whatsoever for booths at the VFCC; I've attended many a toy soldier show there and spaces were always sold be the table, not by the booth.

I'm going along with this, but I am not the least bit happy about it and as I've stated earlier, if I go to Historicon and tank, I won't go back, end of story.

The fact that you are losing two vendors who've attended every Historicon prior to this one speaks volumes………………

i am not a PR expert, but i would think that if the 30 vendors had decided to call orest and had a civil discusiion, much more good could have come out of it instead of just more insults/slap in the faces.
but some times i guess i am overly optimistic

larry

They should have requested a meeting, as I said before. A united front would mean more than 30 individual phone calls. Remember too, all this is most likely driven by trying to cover costs, as there is no evil intent to drive anyone away. The gap between the Host and the next venue is 2 to 3 times the costs, or was. I am sure the Host is raising their prices as well.

As I also suggested before, the board could take this opportunity to make one of the conventions more focused on dealers than games, and allow dealers into the hotel space at the Host, if needed. Running three of the same conventions serves no one in particular, as demonstrated by the flucuating attendance.

I'm not sure of the total game count at CW, but a usually reliable person told me there were the same number of games, just spread over 4 days instead of 3, which would account for what appeared to be increased empty space in the gaming areas. That said, the tournament area looked to be booming to me.

Many of the dealers did talk to at Orest. Hence the shirts…

With the adoption of booths some of the past commetns made in past threads about the vendor focus shifting from a hodge podge of big companies, small companies, small mom & pop B&M stores, and independent painting services to a stricter more controled major vendor room of mainly major companies.

Booths are set up so that displays lean more to accomodating major companies.

Will we see costs drive out painting seervices or mom & pop small B&M stores as well as some small companies?

I still remember the first Historicon where they let painting services into the dealer room. The year before the painting serives were set up in the lobby and hallway. So focuses of conventions told what is and is not in a dealer room does change.

part 2. Could the future hold that there be three selling areas? One for the major companies using booths. One for small companies, stores and painting services/ and a third for flea market gamer selling? The last two using tables.

HG: I think you are right that the hotel costs wouldn't have been enormously more at Baltimore, though I suspect on average they would represent a marginal increase. Even $25 USD a night is $100 USD over the convention…enough to exert an effect on attendance and dealer sales I would think. And cheaper hotels a 20 minute train ride away at the airport aren't the same thing as cheaper hotels 400 yards down route 30.

I think the real issue is incidental increases in cost. Parking could easily have been $100 USD for the weekend, and that if you parked and left it there. There was talk about gamemasters moving supplies in and out and a lot of superficial talk about how you could pull up, unload, etc. I live in a city and that is not how garages work if you are not a monthly customer. If you leave, you pay. Come back half an hour later after unloading, you pay again. Four hours later after your game to go pick up your stuff you pay again. Half an hour later with your car loaded up after your game…pay again. They simply didn't want to be bothered with investigating these kinds of details.

Maybe they could have worked out some type of unlimited in/out weekend pass, but it was clear they hadn't when they committed to the contract.

"They should have requested a meeting, as I said before."

I agree with what I think is your feeling behind this. But the problem is when one side is not terribly interested in listening to the other side a meeting is not very productive. HMGS really does not seem to care much what anyone thinks about what they do so I suspect interested parties feel the need to get the public involved.

The last thing we need if HMGS is going to bounce back from this is less transparency. If the dealers want to protest they should be allowed to do it openly and without harassment. An attendee should know that thee guy he buys his paint from isn't going to be able to afford to come anymore. Or that prices will go up to pay these cost increases.

There is just no excuse for secrecy and silencing people on this.

Actually I think a rowdy and complete airing out of everyone's issues would be a good thing.

I think the issues with the hotels in Batlimore were that unless you stayed across the street at the Days Inn, or paid to stay at the more expensive Sheraton connect by the sky bridge (short walk outside), that the others just weren't very helpful, as you either had to park far away in the lot, or in some area garage, or take the train in – none of which helped if you were buying things and wanted to drop stuff off at the car.

The issue with the GM/flea markets seemed to be that more staff would be needed to do curb side unloading, then the people would go park their car for the day, only to come back later to pick their stuff up, once again being helped by additional staff. Rather complicated and expensive in staff costs. The wild card in all that, and perhaps one of the final deal busters, was that the BCC could not guarnatee how many cars they would tolerate at one time doing this at their front door. Or so I heard. There is often a disconnect between management and the foot soldiers too, so security may not have tolerated it at all, which I think happended at GED (see, the dry run was worth it, but perhaps should have been tried prior to signing a contract. I know, hindsight is always twenty-twenty).

I am sorry to hear about how dealers feel they are treated. Maybe it is time for the dealers to get together first and organize their greivances, then approach the board. But do remember, the fees for the space, and the entrance fees, were all part of a budget, created to meet expenses. So, if dealer fees go down, then the revenue will have to be raised in some other way. So keep that in mind.

Revenues?

Hugh….sounds like they are using the same formula that got them $250,000.00 in the bank before the BCC mess. My bad!

I heard a good one from someone who is in the know. They kicked around 450.00 per booth but got chicken.

FYI- if you are thinking Flea market table- better get one as soon as possible. That's were all those mom/pop and painting services will be jumping for…..and who could blaime them.

As far as the larger companies being there- yes we will probably attend however many I think are getting less space and just trying to figure it out. Case in point- I beleive Old Glory is considering bringing only one truck(instead of two).

Here is the real shame- instead of making the space affordable and many of us buying more space and offering more choices to our customers(which would probably = the same $ for the con organizers as the higher prices will bring in) we are now forced to tell customers- "sorry, I just could not bring it". Wonder how the new hall will look with empty space?

Have I still missed it or DO WE KNOW WHAT THE COST TO ATTEND WILL BE? As a vendor you may want to see what that number ends up being before you send in your check.

Well, it is a small business, so yes, they have revenue, or income if you like, and expenses, both at the conventions, and within the organization, or perhaps you think this all just happens out of magic? Wrong convention for that. :-)

Call it what you will, but they have to take in more money than they spend.

If vendor fees went up, that probably means that gamers will be paying more to get in also. If vendor fees cover half or so of the convention costs, the other half must come from the gamers who show up to the convention. Well on the bright side the parking is free, isn't it?

historygamer

Yeah, I thought they used magic.

It is a small business- funny how you did not mention a non profit small business!

"Call it what you will, but they have to take in more money than they spend."

How much more is acceptable to you?

Dennis-

regarding the t-shirts…I think you guys should have made them remove you from the dealer hall. I wonder if they would have really tried? I think the bad PR just people finding out them threatening to do so is bad enough. Can you imagine if they had actually tried.

I'd be more sympathetic if they were less heavy handed with opposition opinions and more open with information.

What are the costs at VF compared to the Host? Was there no summer weekend available at the Host at all? What is the status of the Baltimore situation? What, exactly, were the concerns or commitments that scared them off from Baltimore at such a late date?

I've been to almost every HMGSE con for 20 years and I will probably go to this one too. But they have me so disgusted I'm on the verge of saying forget it and going to origins this year instead. The T-shirt thing is just too much. Not because of T-shirts, but because of the mindset it reveals.

I think the move from Baltimore to Valley Forge might be a wash. My hotel at VF is $109, more than I would pay in Baltimore (less choice in VF). However, the parking will be free in VF (I assume). Of course, as a dealer or attendee, we'll pay more for admission (3+ times the price as a dealer). Those costs were fixed in Baltimore. Then again, we'll lose dealers, tournaments, GW, and probably others, that were set to go to Baltimore. On balance for me, Baltimore would have been cheaper.

foxfoxfox;

Regarding Old Glory, we have been planing for sometime now cutting back on what we bring to the shows and going to just one truck, due more to our size and what it takes to get ready for a show, than anything else.

In May, we will start announcing what certain lines would be left behind and what lines we will be high lighting from the back catalog at any given show – but if there was something a person was interested in seeing, we would bring those items – no strings attached. Of course, we would always bring the new stuff.

Our representative in the UK has been doing this for years and finds that it works out well.

Basically, the VFCC show, with its cost has pushed the issue up to start this year at Historicon.

Historygamer says, when comparing prices at the BCC:

I don't know about you guys, but I just paid $116.00 USD USD a night at the Host. You know, the cheap dump of a hotel.

One, you paid more that I did for Cold Wars at the Host.

Two, when Historicon was to be in Baltimore, I got a room at the Comfort Inn. Rooms were originally $189. USD I got the room for the Historicon rate of $119, same as everyone else. The HMGS subsidized part of the difference. Now, the rooms go for between $139 USD to $159 USD (I just checked) for that time in July. I guess the economy has some effect here.

You forgot to mention the $25/day parking fee at the Hotel, which as the reception staff told me is totally unsupervised. They also told me not to keep anything in the car.

Then there was the $15+ to park everyday at the BCC that you forgot to take into account. If the Hotel room would not be subsidized and you add in the $40 USD parking per day fee how much more costly is it per day over the Host?

BTW, the Host isn't great, but I've never had a room that would be classed as a "dump". Simply hyperbole. I stayed in room 525 right opposite the entrance to the Pro Shop and Dealers Hall. I had no complaints at all.

I've also stayed at the most expensive place in Lancaster during Historicon, the Courtyard Marriott, at $189 USD per night. It's a really nice hotel. But for the life of me those Historicons were no better than the ones where I stayed at the Host, or the Quality Inn, or the Holiday Inn, etc. I guess I'm there to play.

Looking forward to Valley Forge.

Ralph

Overall I'd say attendance was light in both the dealer hall and the main gaming areas compared to several Cold Wars conventions in the past. The fourth day did not make a bit of difference in the dealer – speaking for myself – except added expenses and one less day in my own workshop. Recommend going back to the 3 day show, or compromise and having games for 4 days and the dealers for only 3.

I have been remiss at thanking the convention director, Frank Preziosa, and his staff for their hard work on putting on Cold Wars. Thank you all.
Toby Barrett, Thoroughbred Figures

Ralph:

I was being sarcastic about the Host being a dump. I think the remodeled rooms are just fine. I did pay that price though, and reserved it a long time before the con. What did you pay, and why was yours cheaper?

I'm also not defending BCC, as I said it never would have even made my short list because of the lack of parking right there. Still, I would have seen it thru for one year instead of what happened, but hindsight is always 20-20.

I guess you just misread my post. :-(

A lot of dealers you see at Hmgs cons are swiching to Origins this year. A week before Historicon and $250.00 USD per 10x10 booth for first time Dealers.

Bob,
Names please?
VR
James Mattes

I don't see any need to name names and potentially alienate their clientele by not showing up for Historicon, but I spoke with several dealers that have plans to move to Origins. I think the price differential is enough to push dealers who have been on the fence to try out Origins given the huge number of attendees they attract. I'm not saying there are arguments contrary to that theory (such as the number of actual miniature gamers at Origins), but that's how some feel. If I didn't have so many family commitments this spring and summer, I probably would have gone as well.

Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com

The law of unintended consequences striks again. So perhaps it will end up being Historigins after all.

mastercaster,
Toby couldn't disagree with you more about 3 days or your 4 day proposal.
Check your TMP mail.

cheers,
rob

James conversations between vendors is often confidential. The whats going on ability to know often involves being trusted. So asking Bob who is of the old can be trusted group of vendors, is not right and will not get you anywhere. I have already heard similar things and about not attending Historicon at all from a number of vendors directly.
Another example would be the following situation:

There are some new whipper snapper casting companies who do not respect that confidentiality and even takes good pipeline ideas and rushes them through to production. Those have been noted and arergaining recogintion as peopel not to talk to if you on the manufacturing side of the house. Such incidences were brought to my attention by three different casting companies. None knew the other was talking to me. So you can gain a bad rap in several ways in this business. One would be if I told you who told me what and the subject of the conversation. Things that you do not need to know. Since I have been in the business for 26+ years and have had many such conversations, am I talking about a current one or a past? LOL!

Historygamer says,

I was being sarcastic about the Host being a dump.

I guess you just misread my post. :-(

No, I read it correctly. But it is hard to glean the sarcasm from, "You know, the cheap dump of a hotel."

Apart from that, we are in agreement.

I'd be interested in seeing how many dealers that go to Origins instead of Historicon (assuming the story to be true) actually will show a profit. They are different conventions.

Ralph

I have no problem with the remodeled rooms at the Host, though admittedly there aren't enough of the for all the people who would like one there.

It is hard say with any authority why people don't return to the conventions. There may be as many reasons as people. However, I often feel that I see the same stuff, year in and year out. But that could just be me.

Guys,

Its not Origins HMGS needs worry about, though doubtless a few dealers will choose it over Historicon on a trial basis.

The problem is to reassert financial stability as well as the now less than good business reputation of the Society, and you don't do that with the extra expense of pipe and drape. Customers draw vendors not pipe and drape.

The Society has been so politicized that many are simply saying a pox on your house. To stop this the board has to reestablish a comity lost in whisper campaigns and downright nasty rumors.

Indeed it may be better for the Society to be disbanded and the remains of the treasury disbursed as per the law, and allow room for a new organization run by all the vapid "boy wonders" who have populated the Society's political scene.

As one of the Founders, viewing the ill will, atupidity and bastardization of the corporate charter, I really don't give a damn.

Bob Coggins

I agree with Bob, but it is astonishing how clueless the board is. Acting like a bunch of brownshirts because a dealer wears a t shirt they don't like is not the way to re-establish trust or good will.

Oh good. I wondered where Coggins was. Now everything will be fixed.

Mr Coggins may be right. East has generated alot of bad blood over the last 10 years. Find someone who hasnt been upset with the BOD at one point or the other in the last decade. Sometimes all you can do is put the old dog down and get a new pup.

Good to hear from you again, Ratisbon. I'm sure you really do give a damn, but it must be sad to see something you helped to create go downhill so fast.

Thanks Tumbleweed,

I am not sad I don't give a damn because the Society created by the founders no longer exists.

Kill it and start over!

Bob Coggins

From founders to flounders.

And still no real info on the costs of the convention versus where we left off last year. When all is said and done, I hope we make it to the next one. No one is willing to prove me wrong, just call me names or elect me to the BOD. Neither option is pleasant I tell you. When fantasy took over the hobby re product sales in the late 70's I was often mad at dealers and distributors and frustrated with local hobby shop owners. How very cool over the past 25 years or so to have vendors at cons with cool products and the inception of almost instantaneous order and ship via the internet. Keep showing up if you can guys. You have meant a lot to me personally.

After a month or so posting my poison pen notes on the proper venue (HMGS EAST Annoncements) I signed back on to TMP to see what was going on in the outside world. And inevitably I have yielded to temptation.

First off, like some of the rest of you I have been informed by Bob Giglio that various unpopular decisions of the HCC and BOD were not his doing. For example, the decision not to hold HISTORICON at the BCC, and the almost concurrent decision to move it to VFCC leaving lawyers to try to get us out of the BCC contract as well as converting the dealer area to 10" square booths with 8' frontage and 30' of unusable pipe and drape were somebody (who remains nameless) else's decisions.

Bob set up the HCC as it is. He has always been its leader. The idea that all the major decisions made by it and sold to the BOD were arrived at while he was in the Men's Room is not, to me at least, remotely credible. If any of you believe that, I think I can get you a good deal on a bridge in Brooklyn.

On the other hand, if we did not have a firm contract with the BCC, and were Hell bent to avoid an affordable venue, VFCC has a lot of advantages.

One thing I noticed at COLDWARS last month was that parking was in short supply. I checked with the hotel after returning home and was assured that there were no fewer spaces except that nobody wanted to park off the pavement due to recent torrential rains. I hope that is true. But I think the total spaces were a fraction of the 2,500 claimed for the VFCC.

So we can (vendors, GMs, or just gamers) drive to the center, unload our toys as needed, and register (if, as I did, you managed to get into the Radisson or Scanticon in time) and enjoy the convention. While the traffic might, as has been often reported, be worse than at the HOST you could go to and from other hotels much more easily than would be the case in Baltimore.

There is no reason why any of us can't attend HISTORICON 2010 at Valley Forge and have a great time, and possibly if vendors make a bit of money (in spite of the much higher costs.) Even if it bankrupts HMGS EAST.

The BCC parking arrangements are at best a nightmare, even if HMGS EAST paid for the dealer parking, which I doubted from the first. The only location with worse parking and sleeping accommodations was probably the Gaylord in Delaware, which Pete claims he had just checked out when Bob Giglio suggested that the check out the BCC.

Vendors (but not flea marketeers) get to donate $50 USD apiece to the local revenuers for a vendor license.

Curiously, while Orest and the HCC were scrambling for excuses to support their decisions I was assured that HMGS EAST would pay the vendor licenses, and that tables at BCC had to be 30' apart. The idea of having HMGS EAST, which, thanks to recent leadership, is hurting financially, pay for our licenses at VFCC sounded bogus. Indeed it was. However, when checking Orest's references I found that there was nothing about table spacing. But there was a requirment for vendor licenses. (BCC Service Manual.)

As in the case of VFCC, where Orest has cut a deal for the flea marketeers, there was an exception in the service manual of the BCC for flea marketeers. If you are willing to claim that no more than 10% of your income came from sales, and that you hadn't attended more than3 conventions in the last 365 days you didn't need a license.

As to the nonsensical and overpriced "booths" versus tables, various vendors have estimated the cost of what they've been using versus what the same thing will cost in the bold new innovative configuration (which Bob Giglio had nothing to do with.) For myself, I've been using 2 x 6' tables. Last year they were $135 USD each at HISTORICON, thus a total of $270. USD Thus twelve foot frontage for $270. USD Under the new system I can get 8' of frontage for a mere $400. USD

As for the picture convention wide, you can get all the HMGS EAST fiscal data, provided you are paying the $25 USD dues, by joining the HMGS EAST Announcements forum.

However, for H09 vendor costs, extra badges, tables, utilities, etc. brought in $45,925. Aside from the $50 USD sucker fees we will be penalized for doing business in Valley Forge, HMGS EAST aspires to collect $63,425 from vendors this year.So that's only a 38% increase overall. Counting the sucker fees, our overall cost would be $68,425. That makes it 50% more.

A small price to pay for…whatever it was James Mattes thought we were getting out ot this?

As for Bob Coggins comment that the HMGS we started died long ago, I'd like to know the date and crcumstances of its death.

Iknow there are signs of terminal illness. But I didn't know HMGS EAST had even entered hospice yet.

Pat condray (WKPP)

gaylord is not in delaware
i don't think gaylord's is in delaware. the chase center is in delaware, and other than seeing it was big enough. i dnn't think i have ever seen a pro and con about it. I do know it is not a good place for us, i just never heard anyone talk about it…maybe because it is so obviously a bad spot.

host parking always sux. i have actually been stuck in the mud behind the dealer's hall. but the "head in the sand"ers claim the host is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

as for the poison pen, you really have to stop calling people liars without some proof. but i am beginning to think you are just doing it because it makes you feel good.

as for the founders, i understand why they think it is thier baby. but honestly. it is not
larry

Larry

I stand corrected. The review prior to checking out BCC was indeed at the Gaylord on the Potomac, which proved too expensive even for the BOD's and HCC's delusions of grandeur.

The Chase Center was also considered. I think it was tried by the MFCA but, as you say, proved unsatisfactory.

In a prior discussion on TMP some people weighed in on what was wrong with HISTORICON, the HOST, or both. Once complaint was : "I came to the convention but couldn't get into a game!"

I've been to all but one of the conventions held by HMGS EAST at the HOST (COLDWARS 95) and as far as I can tell, most people get into games most of the time. Similarly, I mentioned the parking problem because COLDWARS 2010 was the first time I've had a serious problem with it. As it turns out I managed. But apparently you have always had trouble parking at the HOST.

I could be wrong. But I don't think accommodating you and the guy who could never get into a game is worth an increase of almost 300% in the facility cost.

As far as the HOST being the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'm not sure. Sliced bread I can take or leave. But the HOST seems to be the best venue we can find, after much searching. We have been able to go from around 2,000 attendance to a record of 3,667 (IIRC) in 2008. Even though you may never have been able to park, thousands have. And while some may never have been able to get into a game, thousands have.

Most people, however vocal they may be about how HMGS EAST should be run, don't read the financial reports on a regular basis, though that may be changing. I recommend that you consult them and compare the facility related costs of HISTORICON 2009 with those proposed for HISTORICON 2010. You might also compare the bottom line for recent years (prior to the hysterical errors of 2009) with the optimistically predicted positive cash flow for this FY.

As for my poison pen, HMGS EAST's problems do not stem from my stating my opinions freely.They stem from catastrophic mistakes by the current and recent leadership.

I'm not sure how you can believe that the leader of the pack played no part in the controversial decisions emanating from that pack. Although come to think of it, while the move to VFCC (in spite of the BCC contract) and the decision to raise the minimum vendor price from $135 USD to $400 USD have both been announced, nobody has stood up to take the credit for these decisions.

Who do you think made these decisions? Perhaps the Illuminati? I know a couple of Masons, and they swear they had nothing to do with it.

But I dare say, if the leader of a group abstains from playing any role in the group's decisions, he shares the responsibility for the results.

I don't think I said somebody was a liar. I meant to suggest that he was being economical of the truth.

But why should I quibble when I am faced with a great business opportunity?

For a small deposit I can still get you a great deal on that bridge in Brooklyn.

It isn't the founders baby? We have that on your authority (which has to be worth 2 cents on the open market.)

I hope you have no children since you seem to equate parenthood with ownership and/or control.

The founding members, and those of us who started (in my case) and continued to build (as in Bob Coggins case)the convention program have tended to have a paternal interest in HMGS (EAST.) And we've provided what support we can.

A baby can grow up, fall among evil companions, and be destroyed. Bob seems to think that it has already happened. I hope not.

Pat Condray (WKPP)

host parking always sux. i have actually been stuck in the mud behind the dealer's hall. but the "head in the sand"ers claim the host is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Oh, the "parking at the Host" canard again.

Corzin, on the Saturday of Historicon 2009 I parked so far out into the golf course that there were only 6 or so cars farther from the building than mine. It took me a whopping 5 minutes to walk to the building. What's the problem?

Exaggerating opposing opinions do not make your opinions any better. No one said the Host is the best thing since sliced bread. It's just that no one has shown a pressing need to go elsewhere, and have yet to find a suitable replacement.

Maybe my head is in the sand. Better there than up some orifice. Besides, with Historicon at Valley Forge, you should be happy.

Ralph

First no answer to the question that kicked off this thread of mine…..did I really expent one? Secondly, no reprieve from the 10' by 10' booths at Historicon…..silly again of me. Now all I wish for is that TMP could grant those who start threads the power to also kill them. Are you reading dear Editor? This one's been hijacked enough.
Toby Barrett