"Question from a Vendor about Historicon dealer room" Topic

Most of you know me or know my products. No subject has caused more furor, concern and anger in the dealer hall than any other action I can recall over the proposed price increases vendors will have to absorb for Historicon 2010 at Valley Forge. The main bugga-boos are apparently brought about by the introduction of increased prices for piping and curtains (booths), incremental charges for things we've never had to pay extra for in the past – items such as extra tables, chairs and plugs for electricity – and the introduction of increases for choice spots such as corner placement.
I have received my dealer packet and have one question: the packet states the booth idea with attending piping and curtains etc… were decided and passed by the Board. I would like to know specifically – by name – who proposed this arrangement, who sold it to the Board and what was the reasoning behind this idea?
Toby Barrett, Thoroughbred Figures

And by what possible stretch of the imagination is this a question to pose to the TMP mob?

Don't you know al the past and present board members?
… all of their children and all of their names?
[Aren't you one of them? Past, that is.]

Don't you know where the minutes are posted?
(those that get posted, tht is.)

This seems like a weird place to start this discussion -- unless you are planning to add popcorn to your product line.

yy

"And by what possible stretch of the imagination is this a question to pose to the TMP mob?"

Well, my first reaction at getting the dealer's packet is wait until the attendees find out how much a day pass will cost.

Best,
Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com

Do tell, Mycjadie !

Sounds like valid questions for

exhibitors@historicon.org

or

director@historicon.org

or

conops@hmgs.org

or even at the Yahoo group

link

…but I'm sure you know that. Perhaps Orest or Bob G. will come here and provide some clarity, although it would be nice to see a dialogue on the HMGS-E forum. There sadly were few to no dealers at the Saturday Cold Wars meetings, which is understandable given the timing of the meetings.

Oh well. I'm missing Historicon anyway since it got moved up opposite a local con, so I'm just going to enjoy some now.

So how much is a day pass??? Not as much as Yankee box seats , right???

Extra passes for the dealers are $45. USD I inferred that weekend passes would be the same for attendees, but I have no confirmation from the BoD.

Personally, if that's the price, I still see it as a good value for a 4-day event. However, I imagine that the stiff increase in price (from $15, I think) will result in sticker shock for some – the same reaction received by the dealers I spoke to. Further, less money to be spent on other things – such as the dealers and flea market.

I think everyone expected some form of increase, just not a threefold increase – or fourfold for some dealers. This evidences what a bargain The Host provided, and continues to provide for the other two cons.

That being said, I'm sure someone with better information will clear up my assumptions.

My hope is that the BoD will get better con dates in the future (spaced a bit farther from holidays), reduce prices for Historicon in the future and keep Fall In a 3-day con.

Best,
Steve
Cavalcade Wargames
cavalcadewargames.com

I bet the extra dealer badge price is the same as the weekend rate. That way $35 USD for H09. The one day pass was $15. USD

The bod, having spent like drunken sailors for a year (he said, beating Pat Condray to it) has raised prices so the dealers and attendees can pay for their mistakes. But they didn't tripple the prices.

yy

I do not have any interest in personally getting into the fight here (and have purposely tried to avoid it at cons or online) but the prices did triple for the dealers. 1 table for Historicon 09 was roughly $125. USD It was for a 6x6 area. The minimum you can get at historicon 2010 is a 10x10 area and the cost is $400 USD plus a list of extra charges. Again, I am not making any judgment or analysis here but those are the facts as far as cost at the most basic level is concerned.
David

Toby,

If you want to create a ruckus and be told a lot of questionable information, then post your question here.

Like Goldwyrm suggests, if you really want meaningful answers, there are better places to ask this question. As a vendor, you do have the right to know where the cost increases come from.

Ralph

Steve,I can only speak to FALL-IN!, but here you go…

FALL-IN! is still a 3 day show. I have not been informed that there is any intention to make it a 4 day show. Most people I talked to thought Cold Wars should go back to 3 days. I don't know how the BOD feels about that.

We are smack on a holiday in 2010, Halloween. I don't think this will have a disastrous effect on attendance, but it will anger some. Wasn't my call, nothing I can do about that. The good news is that in 2011, we are back to our normal November dates…

I have spoken to two BOD members about the option of allowing Dealers to pack out either after close on Saturday, or before opening on Sunday if they need to get home for their kids. I know my wife was adamant about me being home at a reasonable hour that day for my daughters' sake. They seemed to be open to the idea. I will get a solid answer prior to providing dealer packages to everyone at Historicon.

We have also discussed some other things, such as a zombie room for the weekend. We are certainly an historical organization, and I want to keep us that way, but I can certainly see a small room with 2 tables of zombie games going on most of the weekend as a good option for us this year, hopefully not too many want to hang me for this.
Hopefully we can get some of the dealers and GM's into the spirit to bring along a few pieces of candy for the weekend. It might be fun for those with small kids to let them dress up on Saturday and trick or treat around the show. Heck, they get two Halloweens that way. Just a few preliminary thoughts that all need to be worked out over the next couple of months.

The bottom line is that I want to work with the dealers and attendees alike to try to make this bad decision work for everyone, and will do my best to get us through this. If you have any specific requests or questions, I stand ready to answer them, either publically, or via E-mail.

Thanks
Andy

"Put him in a long-boat till he's sober…
Pull out the plug and wet him all over…
Put him in the bilge and make him drink it…
Shave his belly with a rusty razor…
Heave him by the leg with a running bowline…
Keel haul him untill he gets sober…
That's what we do with the drunken sailor,
Earl-eye in the morning!"

If the dealer's hall doesn't resound all weekend with chanteys, yer missing an opportunity, Toby!

Allen

Thank you for that, Andy. That seems very reasonable.

I think that the zombie room is a good idea. We are a historical con but there is certainly a good bit of zombie mayhem at the cons anyway. It seems like it would work to everyone's benefit to have a dedicated room for it.

Thanks Andy. That's good news.

I think sponsoring a Halloween event at Fall In is a great idea and allowing dealers flexibility sounds like a good compromise.

Best,
Steve

On a side note I never understand this "we are historical" bit. I'd estimate fully 20% of the games are non-historical anyway. Icebergs vs liners? VSF? Pulp? Ogre? Battletech?

If you add in the non-historical games from the various tournaments I'm sure it's closer to 30-35%!

Regarding Fall-In!;

While you're at it I say go with the flow and be different. I'd recommend a Warhammer Fantasy "Vampire Counts vs. Daemons" bring and battle room too.

It's not like you can have a Halloween theme (even if it's not the official one) every Fall-In! anyway right?

Mark, if you set your zombie games in 2008, doesn't that make them historical anyway? Who runs Icebergs Vs. Liners? I want to be the Iceberg, that sounds like a blast! Do I get to float randomly around the table till someone hits me? Hmm… Maybe I would rather be the Narwhal after all…

Andy

Bill, now your just trying to get me hung! I hope you arent supplying the rope?

I'd say, let's go with historical zombies. I have John Jenkins' Communist Party zombies for a start.

I'll offer my Eureka Chernobyl zombies…

In case anyone is interested in Actual 2009 games for H-con based on the online PEL….

-------------Thur------Fri-----Sat----Sun
Historical--64------141-----153------8--366-----69%
Scifi-------18-------54------22------0---94-----18%
Fantasy------5-------11-------8------1---25------5%
Pulp--------10-------13-------5------1---29------5%
Western------4--------6-------5------0---15------3%
Board--------0--------0-------2------0----2------0%
-----------101------225-----195-----10--531

So I think a zombie game or 2 could slide.

Also, fantasy games set in "historical time periods" i.e. VSF were seemi-declared historical in 08 or 09 if I remember correctly.

Not represented in the numbers above, I placed them in Scifi.

Andy, I didn't think so but now that you bring it up I just may be providing the rope unintentionally. My son and I will be there (he stated the other day he was done with Halloween and wanted to go to Fall-In! so plans are on to attend again) and I guarantee that there will be some 40K gaming breaking out on a table or two Saturday night.

But I don't own any WFB VC or Demons so you won't have to worry about me asking to run a WFB game this year.

I find it ironic I may submit a Civil War Gettysburg game for Fall-In! at the Host this year when I never GM'd that battle at the Eisenhower.

Bill

It has been SOOOO long since we had a proper BOD bashing thread. I thought we had forgotten.

Ok, I give up, formating a table is a pain in the,….

Please continue.

Toby is posting here because it is the smart thing to do. Exposure to important points and questions to as many locations is critical. This allows the maximum amount of awarness to the problems at hand. I don't even go to the other sites- just not enough time in the day.

One of his points- curtains and poles- if this was an option to not have- yes they blew that one. Sad-

One of the reasons the vendor meeting was poorly attended was perhaps the fact that many had no idea there was one.

Three things I would still like to know-

1. Why did the vendor hall(Cold Wars)have to open a day early to sell the same amount of product as three days ever did adding an additional day off of work and an additonal night for a hotel? If you want to make it an extra day of gaming- great- let them game the extra day- I am all for it. I just do not know why we had to incure the cost of the extra day on our end. Customers did not suddenly have an extra day of magic money appare for shopping.

2. What rules are going to occure that will hurt the flea market- besides the fact that a number of vendors must now make a mad dash to it because they cannot afford hall space? Will they be able to continue the flea without a license or some special thing not yet announced? It is a real draw for many attendees.

3. Did I miss the new cost to attend or is it still not published. Is it 45.00 -Sorry if I did missed it.

Regarding the Fall In dates. We will not attend without a Saturday night escape. Two small girls 8.5 hours away wanting to beg for candy and I will not miss it. Not a threat – just not an option.

On a positive note. I did talk to about a dozen customers(the ones I had a moment to ask) who did like the idea of VF from a location stand point which gave me hope. Many said sure- it is a shorter drive for them.

David- I think this next go around it is time for a few vendors to run for the Board and I am tossing your name in the hat- sorry!

Jim

This is a vote for no Fantasy and I am not sure what a Zombie game is? Just personal opinion. Of course I am one of the idiots that told Gygax not to add Fantasy to a perfectly good set of Medieval rules about 40 years ago!

Toby I am sure it is reflected in the minutes of the board meetings. Since nothing newer then May of 2009 has been posted I guess you will see them on the website about the first of never or whenever Hell freezes over. Which ever comes first.

Just for s and grins who is running for the board this time. HA HA!!!!

VR
James Mattes

Thanks foxfox for trying to snap this back to the main question.
There's only one good reason why I would even try to post that question at all on TMP. You smart guys and gals out there will probably know why. (It ain't in the minutes and the question wasn't answered at Cold Wars.)
On top of all this we learned the organization is looking down the barrel of several potention law suits (over a hundred grand for starters did I hear at CW?) due to the Baltimore fiasco – one from the BCC and a couple more from hotels. Of course there isn't any actual breach of contract(s) yet because technically we haven't failed to show up in Baltimore, but one can hope the HMGS attorney in all this is advising the Board to officially inform the Baltimore folks in writing of HMGS's intent to not show up so they – the BCC and the hotels – can start mitigating their loses. That would look better to any presiding judge at least.

Toby is posting here because it is the smart thing to do. Exposure to important points and questions to as many locations is critical. This allows the maximum amount of awarness to the problems at hand. I don't even go to the other sites- just not enough time in the day.

My earlier point alluded to getting an answer or resolution of a problem directly vs. asking for the sake of the exposure or support.

I sat through 3 1/2 hours of 2 meetings on Saturday. I got some useful information, some not, and I also got an impression which I'll share here (fwiw).

I think the BoD, convention directors, and others are best engaged directly rather than indirectly through public forums such as this as the first course of action. I got the impression they really hate these topics on TMP. Why? It's the same reason vendors don't like customers complaining on TMP about missing orders or other issues who haven't bothered to contact the business directly first to set things straight.

Just saying…

… but the prices did triple for the dealers. 1 table for Historicon 09 was roughly $125. USD USD It was for a 6x6 area. The minimum you can get at historicon 2010 is a 10x10 area and the cost is $400 USD USD plus a list of extra charges.

Triple? I'm not the best at math, but a 6x6 table is 36 square feet and costs $125.00, or about $3.47 USD per square foot. A 10x10 table is 100 square feet and costs $400.00, or roughly $4 USD per square foot. The cost is not triple. There may be other factors, but the base cost is not triple.

Just saying….

In my humble opinion….If you keep your questions between yourself and lets say a board member- often in the end nothing is done about it. These are not first time questions. Many of these things were addressed when talk of a move started and simply not resolved or possibly ignored. However if everyone knows there is a problem- well perhaps someone will actually realize we need to address it.

However-I am a realist- I am not looking for perfection from those people who make decisions- just hoping they will continue to address what they can when they can to help keep these shows that I and we truly love in as good of standings as possible for everyone involved.

Only one person- board or organizer stopped in my booth all weekend (on Sunday) and that was to shop a bit. Thanks BTW.) You would have thought with everything going on that they would have worked the hall a bit- actively gotten some feedback and such or at least damage control- something. I think that's what I would have done.

Vendors do not like to hear when lets say an order is lost all over TMP because it happens and it is unintentional. But, everyone needs to hear when a vendor is shorting or stealing from his customers or really does a poor job. I do not think a vendor out there has a problem with that.

The only reason I would think the BoD would not like these discussions in public would be when they have valid points and now everyone knows it.

I am actually one of those who likes transparency and would like to see live pod casting of all the board meetings- with todays technology it is simple. You do not like what someone is up to you can vote them out or at the very least figure out what went wrong to help avoid problems in the future.

The answer is simple. That is what they budgeted for, based on projected dealer space, attendance, and other projected income, versus expenses. If it stays at the VFCC, it may go up, or down, depending on how those numbers actually turn out.

The logic is that by moving it to a larger venue, and into the midst of a major population area, the convention will grow. That seems reasonable. Whether that happens, or not, is yet to be seen. No risk, no gain. I hope it goes well for all.

"Triple? I'm not the best at math, but a 6x6 table is 36 square feet and costs $125.00, or about $3.47 USD USD per square foot. A 10x10 table is 100 square feet and costs $400.00, or roughly $4 USD USD per square foot. The cost is not triple. There may b other factors, but the base cost is not triple."

John, I'd say you're very good at math and this was Orest's argument – that the costs are the same. Well, that's one way to look at it, but the fact is that the base cost to attend has tripled. Let's say the smallest space was 36 square feet. You could choose to buy 1 or 3 of those. Now you have to buy three, for total close to 100 feet. The basic cost to play has tripled, and dealers are paying for area that most don't need – wasted space. If you need electricity or a phone connection for credit cards, the costs might quadruple for some dealers.

One thought is that two dealers can share a space. However, the frontage area is only 10 feet. Accounting for some space for egress, that's only 8 usable linear feet of frontage space (consistent with the supplied table). Therefore, if you're willing to share, you can spend $225 USD for 4' of linear space.

Nycjadie is right on about frontage, which is just as important as area, if not more. The frontage is what you use to grab the customer's eye. With Historicon's old rates you paid $25 USD per foot of frontage. Now you pay $50. USD

John,
Just to echo nycjadie, the cost to try out the con as a small dealer has tripled. My 1st historicon cost me roughly 125 for the one table I needed to try out the con. Now it would cost me 400 plus the 50 township fee.

1. Frontage grabs a customers eye.
2. Depth allows for more personal sales interaction.

My reaction to this plan, when I first heard it (for the other location) was to try to propose several different solutions, most of which due to time constraints were not acceptable.

My first thought was my store manager when I was in college struggling to pay my way through. We had a store in the mall, and only 1 chair (for him, we had to stand and welcome customers ;)). He said
"When they walk by its because they aren't interested"
"When they walk in you better make a sale, because they took the effort to walk in."

That being said, I will say that our biggest challenge is time. Had we had more time (like a normal situation) then I think the whole process would have been better.

One thing that I realized is that there are many ways to configure 1-2-3 or 4 booths.

2 booths side by side, back to back etc. 3 booths to form an L shape, etc…

I am not going to tell you what or how to do it because you know what you want best. I will say that just using frontage will be economically self defeating (but you already knew that).

You can bring your own tables, shelves, cases, etc. You can have your own store.

In some ways, for my part I would apologize but I wasn't the one who created this challenge. I also won't hold it against anyone who thinks that this is too much for them.

I never wanted to say that the costs were the same, they were comparable, but it's like comparing apples and oranges.

I would ask that some of us wait until the budget comes out (normally it would've been already out….again time lost because of what happened past) to examine the costs.

This year, I encourage the vendors to try something new, don't get stuck in the frontage. Lets see how it works. Not the best situation, I know that. If I could, like a Roman Emperor create the months Wally, Bob and Pat between March and April we would have more time, alas I cannot.

I can guarantee you that obviously we will have more time for 2011. And I guarantee you that if still in a position to make a difference I will listen and include as many members as I can.

Orest Swystun
HMGS Conops

Once again, if anyone would like to call, email help discuss alternatives

301 622 1747
or email orestswystun@gmail.com or conops@hmgs.org

For me, I am already playing around with ways to get the maximum use of my 10x10 space. I think I have an idea that will work but will be playing around with some configurations in my basement over the next few months.
David

HUBRIS on the part of the higher people who think they can think for the lower people.

Orest, I hear you on using space to the best advantage, but that assumes that you have the type or quantity of goods that will allow for that type of selling. There are plenty of sellers who don't need that. Besides me, the first that comes to mind is the "living voices" CD guy. What does he need 100 sq. ft. of space when he only needs 20?

Orest,
You might also think about some sort of 1st time historicon offer for those smaller and newer companies that want to test the waters. Origins does this and it is a huge help.
David

Nycjadie is right on about frontage, which is just as important as area, if not more. The frontage is what you use to grab the customer's eye.

I understand that, but the example was square footage costs (6x6 vs. 10x10). Changing the discussion to frontage is another matter altogether. I do not have "a dog in this fight," but I am concerned about vendor attendance, which is the primary reason for my attendance (aside from drinking too much with gamer friends ). I hope that the new arrangements and costs do not deter dealers, especially new dealers such as Cavalcade, from attending. Hobby growth is largely dependent upon new and interesting products.

John,
Sorry about the confusion with square footage. I did realize that the cost per square foot was roughly the same. I am used to thinking in terms of number of booth spots, which has been based on the 6x6 model. Thus, at my first H'con, I got one 6x6 area and at the next one I got 2 6x6 areas. Thus, I have been used to having a 6x12 foot area, which costs me $280 USD or so for a H'con. One interesting thing to note is that, previously, exit points were separate from that 6x6 cost so I got to use the whole 6 foot frontage. With the new H'con model, I lose 2 feet of frontage by needing to have an exit point from the back to the front.

Again, I am playing around with different booth configurations to make it work but it does require entering into a different mindset. Those who have been setting up at H'con for 10+ years and have a tried and true system in place are understandably concerned about having to come up with something new.

Also, there are lots of additional costs that begin adding up such as city vendors fees, carpeting, extra tables, extra chairs, power outlets--all of which were free at the Host.

Anyway, my guess is that at the end of the day plenty of the old hands will be there since H'con is still a great show for dealers. I am not sure how many new vendors will be willing/able to give it a try--I know I would not have been able to 4 years ago.

David

Regarding Cold Wars being a four day con; I liked the idea, cost me an extra 150.00 for the extra day, my sales jumped 50% over last year, not to mention it's a long drive and the extra day gave me time to settle in better.

Also, several customers who arrived on Thursday and left Friday told me as they were leaving without the con starting on Thursday, they would not have been able to attend as they had stuff to do Saturday.

As far as Fall In; it's on the same weekend as the biggest toy soldier show on the East Coast, so it doesn't matter if they let me leave early or not, can't attend two shows in the same weekend with two different product mixes, both will suffer.

Too bad as I think more folks will attend with it being in Lancaster (although I will miss Gettysburg very much)…………………………..

Cavalcade will be in attendance. We're working on some interesting things, and if they are all ready by July, we will definitely be utilizing all the space in our booth.

Best,
Steve

I think this is the better forum since I am dubious about the official forum's open debate vs censorship.

I think we knew that there would be a piper to pay for the BCC debacle. I hope it is contained and limited. If it is as bad as Toby intimates, again, I hope that VF is the better of hte opetions. Hopefully Baltimore will realize they will spend more on legel fees than they will get bankrupting a nonprofit.

Just my two cents. I was at Cold Wars this past weekend and was unaware that a one day pass had increased in price from $15 USD to $25. USD I wasn't happy about it. I only go to the HMGS shows to shop, and then I leave. At $25 USD plus the trip, I'd rather keep my dough and shop online. Can't the BOD put some sort of low fee "shoppers only" entrance pass together for those of us who only go to spend money in the dealers hall and flea market? Otherwise, I think I'm done with shows.

The space is actually 6x7 or 42 square feet. I measured it at this con. From the front of the table to the front of the table in the booth behind me is about 14 feet.

The idea of a one days shoppers pass has been suggested before. The idea I heard was a one trip pass, basically a ticket that you hand in as you go into the dealers hall. You can stay as long as you like but you only get the one trip. It would be $5 USD say. It doesn't get you any gaming or anything else but you can go around the vendor's hall for as long as you want but can't come back.

Another idea would be just give out shopping only passes for a far reduced rate.

Pictors Studio
The idea of a one days shoppers pass has been suggested before. The idea I heard was a one trip pass, basically a ticket that you hand in as you go into the dealers hall. You can stay as long as you like but you only get the one trip. It would be $5 USD USD say. It doesn't get you any gaming or anything else but you can go around the vendor's hall for as long as you want but can't come back.

And since no GMs check badges $5 USD is all anyone would have to pay for the whole con. SWEET!

yy

I've played in games with no badge (I often forget it in the room)and never even been questioned YY, so s ahopper's pass is hardly going to matter one way or another on that score.