"15mm Persian Immortal Preview" Topic

Here are two pics of our upcoming Persian Immortals circa 490BC.

They are dressed for battle, in Median dress, and armed with the light spear and bow. Front rankers have the spara which we've had redesigned by popular demand.

These and the sparabara foot will be available next week, and the cavalry is being worked on now.

picture
picture

I like, I like! whats the approx time on availability?

As I said above, next week.

Ah, the old next week ploy! Stand by for incoming rounds on your paypal system

The Persians next week routine, often used by the Bowery Boys!

"Routine Number 37!"

The Great King stands for no such foolishness in his court other than the Three Stooges who bring joy to his heart.

Nice!

Very cool.

Are the spears seperate? Great figures by the way, and the new Spara are much better than the original previews : )

Any chance of versions with the earlier archaic shields?

Oooh, and will you be doing command figures?

If it's a matter of a straight shield swap, that might be something I would do once the line is complete, depending on the number of requests I get for it.

The infantry command will probably come out but only after everything else is done. Infantry command don't sell, or at least that's been my experience. They were over 60% of the sculpting costs for the late Roman foot, for instance, but are only 6% of sales for those.

Thanks for the reply Khurasan, I really like the figures and would like to see what you are doing with the cavalry : )

But hmmm, not really sure I see your logic there, – on a straight accountancy basis its fine, but without command figures – officers, trumpets, standards – for a lot of buyers – me included, its a reason not to buy a figure range. So wouldnt you lose as many sales as the money you think you are gaining back by not casting them?

Incomplete ranges are the bane of most gamers lives and most manufacturers subsume the cost of command figures into the range as a whole. But, if command figures from other manufacturers ranges can fit with your range its not so much of a problem – currently Achaemenid Persian command figures are produced by Minifigs, Xyston, Essex, Old Glory, Black Hat, Magister Militum and probably a few others i've missed – are any of these compatible with your figure size and bulk?

On the archaic shields – yes just a straight shield swop would be just great – are your shields seperate or cast on by the way? In terms of numbers I would be looking for 64 Immortals and 128 Persian/Median infantry with the older style shield. (Along with 30+ shielded cavalry) The only alternative at the moment is the old Minifigs range from the 1980's.

These chaps are early Achaemenid – which there is not much of quality about for, (Xyston, for example, are late Achaemenid only) so there is a clear gap in the market for these and the Sparabara (hoepfully a sielded spearman and a foot bowman firing over his head).

My planned list is already waiting for the release to start filling, anyway.

But the general point – which we discussed a few months ago – is a sound one.

While the command figures may hardly sell, without them, there is a disincentive to buy the main figures.

a unit of say 16-32 elite Immortals without a command element is going to look silly. But the command elment is only 1 or 2 figures in the unit, so hardly any are necessary for the purchase.

Its a business decision similar to making the general on his chariot – maximum one sale per customer, but an essential part of any army.

For a 16 figure unit with these guys I would be buying 2 packs of normal figures and one of command for each unit – so the command is a bonus sale to Khurasan as I don't need it for the numbers, but I do for the unit look.

But, I only need 2 units for my (admittedly not standard shaped) army – so only 2 packs of command in total. – the question is, does the cost of sculpting the command element get made up on the return sale for the basic figure, as without it, the basic figures are clearly missing something, and my purchase decision will be effected by it unless I can customise something within the unit to meet that criteria myself?

Perhaps the solution is to combine the command for both Immortals and Sparabara into one pack – halving the cost, removing the 'extra to make up the numbers' sundary command figures you have to sculpt (musicians, for example).
You really only need a standard bearer and a foot officer. 2 pairs for Immortals, 2 pairs for Sparabara, one pack, 4 figures to sculpt outlay – is that perhaps more practical as a business decision?

I'd be interested to know how Montcalm's units are organised – 64 immortals suggests about 4 units – which I estimate is a more likely purchase size than mine as I have a very specific army orbat to work from. Are the anticipated sales from that sort of number sufficient to encourage the scuplting outlay?

My late Romans sell like hotcakes, but no one buys the foot command. Im in this because I love the hobby, but it is also a business for me. My sales experience has been that a) command are expensive and don't earn the investment back, and b) they are not loss leaders -- they don't help sell other models.

It's not at all uncommon for me to sell 96 legionaires and 0 command. I think the logic is pretty close to the surface on this.

If that situation changes in terms of actual buyers, my attitude toward foot
command will change with it. It's not that it's not going to get made, it's that it goes to the back of the list. Sculpting costs money, but it also distracts the sculptor from making things people will buy -- like cavalry and mounted command.

It's rather taboo to speak this frankly with customers but I trust that people will listen and appreciate it.

Thanks Keraunos, yes I discussed with Duncan Head whether the foot command can be the same for sparabara and immortals, and he had some very useful feedback on that (as usual).

Appreciated and understood.

At a pinch, I'll happily replace that red shielded chap's spear with a wire pole and home made standard.

How about some xyston style flappy-standard bits with a groove in the back we can use to 'make our own command figure' ?

Khurasan – I for one appreciate the honest comments. Well done. From what you say I can understand your reticence. Are you saying that the cavalry command figures sell well for the Late Romans? is it an infantry specific issue? Which would seem odd.
I thought it might be the infantry command sculpts that put people off, so I checked your site but they look great to me. Dont understand why people wouldnt buy those. (I even found myself contemplating a Late Roman army myself after looking at the figures – but no must resist! : ) )

For the Persians I would have thought that command figures created from the infantry base original in the pics would not be that much work, addition of a cape and a standard at the most, or a trumpet arm or a sword arm. I like Keraunos suggestion on same command for Immortals and Sparabara – that would be fine by me, I can always convert heads if necessary. I also wouldnt have a problem if command packs had more figures in them.

Keraunos – my Immortal Regiments are organised as two 32 figure units and each one has six command figures – 2 Officers, 2 Musicians and 2 Standards, which allows them to be further broken down into two smaller units if required.

The other alternative is 72 figures in 3 units of 24 each. Which I might also go with instead.

On the other questions –

Are the shields seperate or cast on? Either is fine.

Are the spears seperate or cast on? Either is fine, as long as they are supplied with the figure (I hate wires)

Thanks for your responses so far!

nice sized units, Montcalm.

slightly envious, but I suspect the range of natoinalities I'm looking for is my compensation for the 16 figure units I will have.

eh hem:

Heavy Cav units
4 Medes / Persians
1 satrapal guard

Light Cav units
4 scythian
3 Persian / Hyrcanian

Infantry units
2 Immortals
5 Sparabara
9 others (Saka, Assyrian, Egyptian, Kaspian, Pactyian, Colchian, Mossynoici)
4 Thracian / Bythinian warband types
5 Hoplites (Ionian, Carian, Cypriot, Theban)

Light infantry units
6 (Paphlagonian, Armenian, Parthian, Chorasmian, Sogdian)

Skirmishing foot units
11 (Persian, Ethiopian, etc)

A camel unit (arab)
and a Chariot (Lybian) unit

- it may not win anygames, but it will be great fun to paint, and I can always throw a copy of Herodotus at my opponent when I lose !

Thats an excellent list. You are right on the variety of nationalities, the rules we use dont encourage their fielding.

The Achaemenids for me split into three distinct periods: The early Achaemenids of Cyrus conquests – which I see their infantry as primarily medium or heavy with light spear, javelin, bow and shield. The "middle" period Achaemenids who converted to the mesopotamian Sparabara tactic of shield walls with massed archery behind. And the Later Achaemenids who dispensed with the Spara and moved into the Kardake style of fighting and greater use of Takabara style peltasts. So three distinct armies in the same way as the various period Romans are distinct. My early Persian cavalry are also shielded and have bows.

I have painted so far (but still working on the bases – since I dont base an army until its all complete) :

Later Achaemenid

CinC King of Kings with driver in 2 horse light chariot
CinC King of Kings in 4 horse chariot
Sacred standard with two priests and driver in 4 horse chariot + 3 infantry guards
2 x Persian CinC on horse + mtd standard bearers
6 x Persian Sub gens on horse
18 x Persian guard heavy cavalry (1 unit)
12 x Persian rebel guard cavalry EHC (1 unit)
60 x Persian HC (5 units of 12 figures each)
24 x Kappadocian / Armenian EHC (2 units of 12 figures each)
30 x Persian LC (3 units of 10 figures each)
6 x Bactrian EHC (1 unit)
30 x Bactrian LC horse archers (3 units of 10 figures each)
18 x Scythian EHC (1 unit)
48 x Scythian LC horse archers (4 units of 12 figures each)
24 x Eastern LC javelins
108 x Kardake LMI
48 x Bactrian LMI
16 x Persian archers
16 x Persian javelinmen
16 x Persian slingers
16 x Camp guard MI
24 x Apple bearer royal guard
6 x scythed chariots
6 x Arab camels
4 x heavy bolt shooters and 12 crew
1 x Persian Indian elephant with mahout & 2 Persians with bows
64 x Greek mercenary hoplites
1 x Greek sub general
6 Persian tents and Kings marquee + 12 camp figures, horses and baggage camels

Expansion for middle Achaemenid

64 x Persian MI Spear with pavaise (Spara)
64 x Persian MI archers
36 x Immortal HI Spear with pavaise (Spara)
36 x Immortal HI archers
64 x Medizing or Ionian hoplites
8 x Immortals in traditional robes (Sacred standard guard)
18 x Medizing Theban Greek cavalry
24 x Thracian LMI
3 x Indian heavy chariots
12 x Indian infantry
12 x Indian medium cavalry

Still to buy:

12 x Persian Guard cavalry with shields
36 x Persian cavalry with shields
15 x Persian camel EHC
64 or 72 x early Immortal HI Spear, bow, shield
128 x early Persian MI Spear, bow, shield
48 x Phoenician Marine LMI
48 x Egyptian Marine MI
12 x Ethiopian skirmishers
4 x Cyrus' wartowers

So far we've played five games using the Later Achaemenids listed above. They won against Alexandrian Macedonians – a complete wipe out – only the Macedonian light cavalry left the table alive : ) Alexander really sulked! Drew against Spartans, wiped out a Greek alliance army, really struggled against an early Thracian army but just won in the end, and badly lost to a Syracusan hoplite army. I found choice of terrain for the Later Achaemenids is crucial.

We sort of have three options as well.

there is the original early Persian list – which roughly conforms to the Cyrus period – much fewer subject peoples, but does use Sparabara – an omission easily corrected if need be.

the marathon list I gave above,

and a later list, which features much more heavy cavalry, and Kardakes and better Hoplites.

We also have a Median option for the pre-Persian period.

Interestingly, a separate set we are playing a series of games with around the Alexander period, has vastly more mounted for the Later Persians.

in fact, its quite rare to field any persian foot at all – just the greek hoplites, and all other forces mounted.

they have now finally been pushed off Pontus – so no more greeks available in that campaign for them, but they are still no where near losing any actual Persian or Median lands.

ins a 28mm campaign (sorry Khurasan), which is being blogged here

caliban-somewhen.blogspot.com

Very nice looking figures, although I must voice a small complaint. Personally, I could do without all the active poses in the rear rank. In such poses the weapons almost always bends or breaks, and from a functional point of view they are usually hard to "rank up". I would have much preferred variations of the figure with the red shield. With two points of contact (the ground and the hand) the spear is much more likely to remain in good shape.

I appreciate there is varying opinion on the subject, and that I may be in the minority, but from my coversations with other wargamers most seem to agree that attacking posses are not usually the most practical.

Having said all that, continued good work Mr. K. Perhaps with some modification I can still make use of you Immortals in a Perian army.

General M, by mounted command I mean grand commanders (general elements). They are loss leaders -- you don't make your money back on them (at least not for a while) but their existence does help sell other models.

I suspect the decline in interest in unit command has something to do with the emergence of element based gaming, rather than unit based. Of course there are still unit based games around, but many of the most popular systems allow individual bases to act independently. To be honest though even before dbx it wasn't uncommon to see infantry units with no command, something that you'd often see in 6th and 7th edition WRG.

Khurasan, you got so far:

Late persians ( Arabs VIII -XI cent)
Saffarids/Samanids etc IX+

Achaemenid VII-III BC

and great gap from fall of Seleucids to Arab conquest !!!

Where are Sasanians ? :>

In many respects Khurasan has the beginings of a Sassanid range:

KM-528 Heavily armored clibanarii (cataphracts) are very Sassanid.
KM-544 Persarmenian (or western style) armored horse archers
KM-527 light horse archers
KM-545 Alan allied armored lancers
KM-1500 Hun allied or mercenary horse archers
KM-1501 Hun armored horse archers
KM-1102 & 1103 Parthian style horse archers

What we need most for Sassanids are:

(1) Iranian armored horse archers similiar in equipment to KM528 but missing most of the limb armor but shooting like KM544.
(2) Sassanid high command

And later:
(3) foot spearmen in helmets like in the montvert book
(4) foot archers & slingers

3 & 4 are optional as they can be had from other sources. A reasonable levy (not wearing a globe hat) can be made from Xyston's Persian levy in eastern dress (by adding a wicker shield).

BTW, I believe KM528 are the most accurate Sassanid cataphract available from the reign of Khosrau I, as seen in the bullae:

picture

I like the models, very nice and I am considering painting an earyl Persian army, will any of these be at Salute? That is where i am going to rumage and see what takes my fancy next.

Command figures for infantry – nice not essential, I often though not always buy tem and it certainly would not put me off if they were missing. Likewise one generic command group would be plenty good enough for me, mad to do different for each of the inf, my guess is all the inf commanders would be wearing the best stuff even if the rest of the unit was not.

I would be much more put off if there were important figures unavailable from the range.

Andy
PS I would agree i would be more likely to use command figures in cavalry than infantry. I seldom put sommand figures in say pike phalanxes it makes the phalanx look a little silly.

Pssstt, we are running out of next week.

Well?

Are they size compatable with Xyston