"Winning the War in an afternoon?" Topic

Hi you Naval types.

I know nowt about Naval Warfare (Well, in the Wargamer sense I mean).

I was reading up on Jutland, and the famous quote about Jellicoe being able to lose the war in an afternoon.

But what would the outcome of a smashing British Victory have been? Could he have WON the war in an afternoon? What would we have done with such a victory that we did not do anyway?

Pat

Perhaps the Kaiser would have seen the inevitability of defeat; more likely he would have gone for unrestricted U-boat warfare eariler; more likely still, no great difference from what did happen.

as you say the quote is about losing the war in the afternoon. not winning it. C-in-C Grand Fleet was rather a thankless task.

even without the High Seas Fleet a descent on the German coastline would be virtually impossible due to the extensive minefields. Fisher's Baltic scheme was ridiculous.

the other option would be transfering many units to the Med. but even there the Adriatic and Dardanelles coastlines were also well protected.

I doubt it that even a defeat at Jutland would have made too much difference. The advantage in numbers of the Royal Navy was too great. The German could have counted with a small window of naval supremacy, but the British would have recovered and stroke back.

@royaleddy,

Why was Fisher's Baltic scheme ridiculous? Assuming that the German fleet had been virtually annihilated.

Historians dismiss it without explaining exactly why it wouldn't work. I would think that the Germans could very easily shuffle troops to meet such a threat, but isn't that exactly what was needed, weakening of the German lines on the main battle front? Is the north German coast too shallow for amphibious operations? Would cooperation with the Russians have been impossible? I'm not asking this question as a troll, but seriously want to know.

"Assuming that the German fleet had been virtually annihilated."

Down to the last U-boat? Capital ships in the Baltic would have provided the U-boats with a target-rich environment. In addition, suppose a dvision had been landed (recalling the primitive nature of amphibious ops during the period). What would the results have been? Several sunken dreadnoughts and a large pile of British dead/prisoners.

Yes Fisher's idea called for a Russian Corps, but the logistics of the matter were pretty frightful. Would the Russians have been thrilled at the idea of loosing thousands of troops on a doubtful venture?

Remember, the British were hesitant (with good reason) about amphib ops on the Flemish coast. Imagine having to thread through the needle between Denmark and Sweden, with every ship a target for a U-boat.

In addition the British didnt have the sort of landing ships needed for an assault on beaches.
they would have needed to start building such vessels just as the U-boat war was hotting up.
(Fisher had some interesting ship design ideas)

A British victory at Jutland would have maintained the status quo: Britain could ship globally, Germany could not.

That's taking "victory" to mean 10-40% of German captial ships as casualties, Wiping out the German High Seas Fleet is fanciful, but even given that operations in the Baltic would face u-boats, as mentioned, but also minefields and shore guns, and who knows what the Russians would have had to say about it. It would also have taken more than a year to debate and plan, during which time a lot changed, not least the US entry into the war.

So you could stretch a *little* and say a huge British victory would have opened the door to Baltic operations, but that's a far cry from winning the war.

Jellicoe's position was unenviable in the extreme.

Andrew

Assuming a Trafalgar-Ish crushing victory at Jutland, the earliest the British could have pulled together a Baltic landing would have been late spring 1917 by which time Russia was a basket case and unable to help themselves much less their allies. In addition, even without a battle fleet, coastal light forces, mines and submarines could turn the narrow Baltic entrances and shallow coast into a graveyard for blue water fleets, much less the logistical tail for a full blown invasion army.

Ah, the logistical tail, excellent point.

Andrew

In addition, even without a battle fleet, coastal light forces, mines and submarines could turn the narrow Baltic entrances and shallow coast into a graveyard for blue water fleets,

I would note that coastal light forces and submarines have accomplished this exactly zero times in history. Mines have performed better, but they can also be countered.

I expect the big problem was that the UK couldn't afford a large enough troop commitment to a Baltic front.
-Kle.

The quote was a typical piece of Churchillian hyperbole. Baltic operations were never seriously considered by anyone other than Jackie Fisher, for all the reasons given already. Although, that didn't stop him pushing through to completion the Light battlecruiser Furious, which was designed in his mind at least, for this operation.