"Evidence of MG42 in Africa???" Topic

Was gaming with a guy who mentioned how they weren't in the desert. I was under the impression they got there. Do we have any primary source evidence to resolve this issue? Anyone?

The MG42 was released in 1942. It might have been used in Tunis.

I imagine they would have been glad to see them there, as well – the 42 would likely have been more tolerant of the desert environment than the 34.

Doug

I think it's hard to say for certain. I would look for photographic evidence. If they were there, they were probably rare. To make sweeping claims like "they weren't in the desert" is slippery in my opinion. I think you could get away with throwing one into a late Tunisia wargames scenario, but using 3 or 4 in a game would be too much.

I heard from some guy that the Ramcke Brigade had a few at Alamein.

There is a mention here about it. Robert

TMP link

Still a mystery I guess….34's are much safer bet…Lots of companies make 42's for the desert.

We had a lengthy discussion on this. There may have been a few.

Well, with a caveat already present in the quote…

"It is said that the MG42 was first used in action by the Panzergrenadiers of Rommel's Afrika Corps against the British 8th Army in Tunisia…" from Modern Small Arms by Major F Myatt (1978) – for those who like their sources identified;>

No indication of who said it, less alone who saw it, or heard it for an MG42 even, but it makes some sense. New equipment did reach the DAK in Tunisia, even a few Tigers rumbling about, and wasn't a Mountain Infantry Div transferred over late on?

I'd be inclined to consider it as possible for early 1943, when the Germans suddenly realised they'd better send some reinforcements, rather than in time for El Alamein for example.

A bloke down at the supermarket told me that Kampfgruppe Burckhardt was formed from the Fallschirmjaeger Lehr (demonstration) battalion, which was equipped with a variety of new and experimental weapons, including some of the first MG42s fielded.

The guy restocking the cucumber bin added that KG Burckhardt was attached to Folgore during Alamein. A lady who was picking chipollitas (Mexican green onions) added that there's a Spanish Web site which cites accounts of German veterans confirming that the Ramcke FJ, and specifically KG Burckhardt, had MG42s at Alamein.

Then the guy at Kragen Auto Parts showed me this photo:

picture

But he says he thinks it's from Tunis.

The next time I go see my barber, I'll ask his what the real deal is about these.

And, oh yeah:

link

Allen

I must go to the wrong grocery store.

I must go to the wrong grocery store.

Me too. At my local Wegmans all they do is argue about Napoleonic facing colors…

Damon.

Now of course there are quite a few statements on the Internet stating that they were used in North Africa in 1942. And also that two captured MG-42s in North Africa were shipped to the US to be evaluated. With no sources of course ;) LOL. Or at least as credible as Allen's :). Robert

Dang Allen, who knew you had such informed and educated grocery store clerks. I'm sure you consult with them all the time on produce and militaria questions.

The pic looks a bit 'deserty', but doesn't make it North Africa of course;

Scratch that link, it's an MG34…

But then there's also this!

link

I must go to the wrong grocery store.

Me too. They do not stock Mexican green onions.

"The pic looks a bit 'deserty', but doesn't make it North Africa of course…"

Those troops are almost certainly DAK. But unfortunately, it's an MG34. Edit: never mind; you got it!

Allen

That pic is pretty good, Allen but we need more. Pictures from toy companies and their soldiers isn't any kind of proof is it??? Still a mystery as far as I am concerned. We need testimony , pics or first hand accounts or invoice records from the periods showing the arrival of the guns.

What makes you guys think it's an MG-34? The flash supressor is much more robust than on the MG-34 (see this picture: link Also the barrel shroud appears to be square with oblong cooling holes, rather than round, staggered cooling holes.

Also what makes you think it is "almost certainly DAK?" Tropical uniforms were worn on Sicily as well, and there were plenty of areas that were dry and dusty during the invasion. Without more background in the picture, though, I wouldn't say conclusively one way or another.

Damon.

It is a 42! Not a 34. Not even close to a 34! We need another pic at least.

Hey Allen

How much are they charging for a model 1814 BRICOLE at Kragen Auto Parts. All we have here in Coalinga is Auto Zone, and they are currently out of stock.

If its cheaper I may have you grab me a pair.

Thanks in advance.
Robert Henry
BRDM-621

Starfury Rider and I are referring to a different picture, the link to which he posted, and subsequently removed.

"We need testimony , pics or first hand accounts or invoice records from the periods showing the arrival of the guns."

You have sufficient information now to go and find the same sources to which I alluded. If you have no better evidence for their *not* being there than "I heard from a guy…", then I see no need to provide references, but simply to provide the correct information. If you want "proof", you can find it.

By the way, Battlefront's guys usually do good research; I give them that. They are not wrong in this case.

Allen

Bob, the Kragen guy says you can't get an M1814 bricole any more; you'd have to scavenge the artillery salvage yards. You want me to check the big one down by the old George AFB gate the next time I go to Victorville?

Allen

Yea that may work.

Or I may have to go up to San Francisco and search the artillery salvage yard at Fort Point.

I could always use a 1817 model and cut the rope down to the 1814 model.

Oh well.

Best regards

Bob

You have sufficient information now to go and find the same sources to which I alluded. If you have no better evidence for their *not* being there than "I heard from a guy…", then I see no need to provide references, but simply to provide the correct information. If you want "proof", you can find it.

Sorry but testimony from a couple of supermarket workers (not even a chain super) isn't good enough. The picture, I must admit, looks a lot like Afrika. I have a bunch of footage on DVD of Afrika Korps marching. When I get back home, I will go through it to see if I can prove or disprove all this.

By the way, Battlefront's guys usually do good research; I give them that. They are not wrong in this case

Good company with good research, fine. Can they make a mistake? Probably. We don't know their source at all. Could be a guy who saw your picture above and took that as definitive proof.
I admit we are a bit closer to yes than to know but I still think we can prove it definitively, don't you. We need to keep the thread alive to get someone to see it with more proof.

I heard from a guy who was the best friend of the bag boy at Stater's who personally knew Zaloga and boy howdy I can tell you that the MG 42 was, in fact, first used in Tunisia.

Allen, The picture you cited as evidence from Tunisia… I hate to break it to you, but he said one word in response to the Tunisia remark: Italy.

Sheesh, experts, how can you deal with them these days.

FoW Good company with good research, fine. Can they make a mistake? Probably.

They can, they have (I have caught a few), and I have been caught more then just a few times with inaccurate research myself. It is part of the game of doing research, you do the best that you can and go from there.

'Ramcke' was issued a bunch of flashy new equipment before shipping out and I would not be surprised to find MG42s in the mix. By Tunis there probably were a number of them there considering the formations that were being shipped in by that time. The only probable draw back was where the formation was drawn from. If it was Germany or Northern Italy then it probably had new stuff. If it was France or the Balkens it probably didn't have new stuff.

As for the pic……..a word of warning as this has happened to me more then once. I have been 'fooled' by photos of the IDF, Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian forces that fought in the first Arab-Isreali War of the 1950s. ALL sides used old WWII equipment and some of the German Merc. elements involved even wore parts of their old uniforms!

One photo, cropped, showed a T-34/85 with what looked like German troops in and around it (Someone was trying to claim it was proof the Germans were in the desert using captured Soviet equipment in 1944-45). The full photo, which I found a week later, showed a couple of more T-34/85s, the same troops, and a Syrian flag flying over their position!

In the Ballantines series of books, Afrika Korps, Book #1 on page 142, second guy from the right in the trench seems to be holding a MG42. I need someone else to confirm this.

Also the barrel shroud appears to be square with oblong cooling holes, rather than round, staggered cooling holes.

I agree with garand, I do't know how anyone can call that picture an MG 34.

WRT to to the Battlefront link of paras Allen provided – what the heck is an "sMG 42"? HAve they prefixced with an 's' for "short" to cover the horrible looking way too short machine guns in the pictures?
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Tim

I think it's supposed to be "schwerer" MG-42, in that it is mounted on the heavy machine gun mount. Sounds cooler when said in German…

Damon.

"Sorry but testimony from a couple of supermarket workers (not even a chain super) isn't good enough."

Apparently parables don't work any more. Everything you need in the way of eyewitness acounts is online.

Why do you think that's Italy, Marc?

Damon is correct about the "s".

Allen

I thought a "parables" was a French paratrooper… I know not funny…lame…I know……

Oh, here; play with these, if you're not interested in FJ:

link

Allen

I'm still working on the cited photo from Bir Hakeim…

Allen

How's your Polish? You could read Jacek Solarz's "Afryka 1942", cited here:

link

Six of them at Bir Hakeim?

Allen

Hey, my barber says he is related to a man that was a friend of a man who was Erwin Rommels first cousin and almost directly related to Ramcke!

He says that Ramcke had fifteem sMG42s at the time of deployment to North Africa.

Now in my opinion that is better then any picture you can find, or for that matter, anyone at your local grocery store……so ha! LOL

Hey Allen, I found a model 1814 BRICOLE on Ebay!!!!

Its the arresting cable from the French aircraft carrier Foch (R99) or Clemenceau (R98).

And it will only cost me 5,000 Euroes!!!!

Thanks for the help.

Bob

My father was in the desert. He didn't mention any MG42s. I suppose he wasn't looking too closely at what the Germans were using to try and kill him with. Bit remiss that, dad.

The guy who works down the chip shop isn't too sure either, but he does look a bit like Elvis.

For what it's worth, Carrell's Foxes of the Desert mentions MG-42s. IIRC he says they were all collected together into a single machine gun battalion.

I know Carrell is suspect because of his obvious sympathies towards the Germans, but it's hard for me to see where his bias would enter into his reporting of such an event. I will try to remember to look it up tonight and post what he actually says, as opposed to my age-addled memory.

"For what it's worth, Carrell's Foxes of the Desert mentions MG-42s."

Yep. I had been thinking of posting just "Ezekiel 13:4", but nobody would have gotten it.

Allen

The guy who works down the chip shop isn't too sure either, but he does look a bit like Elvis.

Ah, how I do miss Kirstie MacColl … YouTube link

Anyway – I don't know why, but I seem to recall seeing that same pic of the 42 in the improvised AA mount ( picture ) in a book with a caption that said it was a shot from Greece. The books are in a box in the storage unit, or I'd go hunt for it.

Doug

I think it's supposed to be "schwerer" MG-42,

I think you're right. I assumed short (yes, I know, it would have been "k") because whoever sculpted the MG42s obviously didn't think to count the number of air cooling holes – a quick treatment by Corel (enlarge and gamma correction) shows 3, maybe 4 holes along the side, because the weapon model looks so ridiculously short. A pity, as the figures, and the gun itself are really beautifully done.
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Tim

Don't look if it will cause a stroke, Tim:

picture

picture

Allen

So the "s" is for "Stumpy"?

Those are clearly the 'hood approved street-sweeper version of the mg42. Real bad boys carry one slung under each arm, hidden under a trenchcoat.

Doug

Allen, are those figures from Peter Pig? I had been thinking about picking up a few in zelts to mix in with my current batch, but not if they look like that…!

Damon.

Yes they are, Damon. They are… um… well, different in appearance. I have managed to sneak some in alongside other figures.

The ones in zeltbahn don't seem quite so compressed:

picture

And the "schwere" versions aren't bad:

picture

picture

Allen