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"Question on a maneuver" Topic


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835 hits since 14 Mar 2010
©1994-2026 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

FULLB3514 Mar 2010 1:08 p.m. PST

After reading a few aircraft books I came across mention of a YO YO high and low. Does anyone know what maneuver this is?
Thanks in advance
Len

gweirda14 Mar 2010 1:12 p.m. PST

Paging Mr.Russo…Mr.Russo to the white courtesy phone… ; )

Kaoschallenged14 Mar 2010 1:22 p.m. PST

Here are some descriptions. Robert
Lo Yo-Yo
link
High Yo-Yo
link
High Yo-Yo defense
link

link
link

Matsuru Sami Kaze14 Mar 2010 1:36 p.m. PST

Good Luck.

Matsuru Sami Kaze14 Mar 2010 1:36 p.m. PST

Yo Yo helps you stay behind the target when you are moving faster than the target. Overshooting the target would be bad.

FULLB3514 Mar 2010 3:13 p.m. PST

Thanks for the help.

RockyRusso15 Mar 2010 10:49 a.m. PST

Hi

Not just speed, but to artifact a way to "outturn" an aircraft with a better initial rate of turn. You sort of know this as this is what Chennault was talking about when using the P40 against a Ki 27. He turns, you go vertical, anticipate where he will be and wingover on his tail, in this case, trading energy/altitude for radius.

Rocky

christot15 Mar 2010 11:26 a.m. PST

Beautifully put, Rocky.

donlowry15 Mar 2010 11:41 a.m. PST

Another way to out-turn a plane that has a higher rate of turn is to roll in the direction he is turning -- this keeps him in front of your guns long enough to bring him down.

RockyRusso16 Mar 2010 1:05 p.m. PST

Hi

This point, Don, is more problematical from both a gaming situation AND where I have done presentations for pilots on this. Well, ignoring the roll rate problems, of course.

The situation is that "The First Team" pre-WW2 trained Navy and Marine pilots where pretty much the only ones actually given formal training in deflection shooting. A number of successful pilots who had experiences as bird or skeet shooters had an advantage, but largely a pilot had to survive AND figure out lead on his own to make this work.

And the advantage of the yo-yo over this snap deflection is time on target and follow up shots. That is, anticipating the turn, rolling, degree of arc and all, the shot is likely to be very short with a follow up requiring either following up with a yo-yo ore disengaging and re-engaging the target.

In the Battle of Britain, the british designed their gun systems on having a 3 second burst on target to bring down a bomber. In addition to underestimating how many actual hits would happen they underestimated how much damage something like a DO17 could take. And they didn't train for deflection.

The P36, aka Hawk 75 had a similar performance envelope with the Pratt and Whitney twin row motor to a Zeke. Actually better as its performance in roll and dive was actually superior. But the french often having only 2 x 7.7s and rarely 6 put them at a severe disadvantage even though they would "win" the dogfight. And the reverse, experienced Germans often used the yo-yo, but from the E-3 on with the cannon, even a snap shot high deflection could do a "win" for the germans who were otherwise outmaneuvered.

I hope this going on and on isn't glazing people's eyes.

My old day job stuff, and I get all geeky.

Rocky

FULLB3517 Mar 2010 10:47 a.m. PST

Thanks Rocky. Keep going I can read all day;^)Interesting stuff.

Len

donlowry18 Mar 2010 3:55 p.m. PST

I got the roll idea from the memoirs of a P47 pilot, who said the German planes could out-turn him, so he just rolled in the direction they were turning. "Thunderbold!" by Robert S. Johnson with Martin Caidin

Aloysius the Gaul18 Mar 2010 4:59 p.m. PST

Since someone mentioned 8 mg's and damage dished out and taken, it seems reasonable to include this link – a nice summary of state of the play for fighter armament across WW2.


link

RockyRusso19 Mar 2010 12:12 p.m. PST

Hi

Bob Johnson's roll maneuver in various periods is sometimes called a "lag roll" or "combat barrel roll" and is, indeed designed to produce a quick high angle off deflection shot. The problem being as I said above, that most pilots weren't very good at pulling lead.

Rocky

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