"23rd Foot SYW" Topic

Hi All,

Well, I'm slowly wading through my SYW British contingent, and I'm now coming upon this one.

Realization no.1: the fusileer caps! I'd neatly sorted my figures into battalions of hatmen for painting so I've got to change that! That's OK, actually suits me because I had too many grenadiers: the British brigade of my army is going to be from a pack of OG15s, but the converged grenadier battalion will probably be Essex because they'll go into another, Essex, brigade, so I didn't know what to do with my OG grenadiers.

So the OG grenadiers are going to be fusileers. I'm ready to file off the wings (easy!). Do I have to do something with the small pouch the grenadier figures have in front. Did fusileers have that pouch (what is it for?)? Are there any adaptations to be done (at that scale)?

Am I right in supposing that the officers wore hats, and not caps? What about sergeants? I would suppose they wore caps like the men. What about a spontoon?

Last, I read on Kronoskaf that the belting was white, and not natural tan like the other foot regts. Is that confirmed.

Frédéric, I'm sure this is a question for you

Cheers

François

Pouch at the front on Grenadiers was for Grenades…

In Lawson
1757 : On service, sergeants carried hlaberts and officers fuzees. The latter had espontoons as well.

Moreover, I know the fusilier cap was a little bit smaller and cheaper (less embroidered) than the grenadier mitre…

Grenades still around in mid-18C, or was it symbolic ?

You are quite correct, my friend – the officers in British grenadier companies wore tricornes, not grenadier caps – the sergeants, as non-commissioned men, wore mitre caps like the men

Not at home right now so a little harder to check on the webbing question

Belts for Fusiliers the same buff as other foot- no difference there. No contemp picture or description I know of indicates white during the SYW.

Grenadier and Fusilier officers DID wear Mitre caps and there are some beautiful and richly embroidered specimens of these from the period still in existence. There are also comtemp pictures (most famously of the 4th Kings Own at Culloden by Morier) showing Grenadier officers wearing the tricorne. I think it likely that for set piece battles in Europe, Grenadier/Fusilier officers would wear the mitre, but in more rugged areas like North America and the Scottish Highlands, the tricorne was more likely worn.

Grenades no longer habitually carried during the SYW I believe, although they would might well be issued for Grenadiers acting as storming parties etc.

Well, I guess I'll have to do with what I have (I don't think there's a mitre-wearing officer in there). Do I have to cut off those front pouches (assuming a pouch for grenades is for grenadiers) ? I wonder if I can do that without leaving too much of a scar …

Don't confuse grenade pouches (which probably went out at the end of the WSS, or soon after) with the "belly box" – a small version of the cartridge pouch that was worn on front of the waistbelt that was issued to specialist troops, such as grenadiers, highlanders, light infantry etc. Is this what your figures are wearing? If so, you would probably have to remove it from battalion company figures.

While the fusiliers' battalion companies probably didn't have the bellyboxes, how visible are they going to be in a 15mm unit on the tabletop? Think about it before you risk damaging the figures.

@ Seneffe: Do we have positive evidence that fusilier officers in particular ever wore the cap? And that the surving, embroidered caps tjta you refer to belonged to line regiments' grenadier officers, as opposed the RSM or some volunteer outfits?
- Not questioning your assertion mind you, just wanting to make sure before I re-equip my forces…

<<Do we have positive evidence that fusilier officers in particular ever wore the cap?>>

Grenadier officers certainly wore caps when this troop type was introduced in the pre-WSS era. This link suggests that grenadier officers did wear the mitre cap in the SYW:-

link

The RWF officers did wear the bearskin cap post-1768, but having said that, Mollo/McGregor shows an officer of the 23rd at Minden in tricorne.

Musketier you are right, I'll probably leave the belly pouch on, it looks like too risky an operation especially multiplied X nr times. It's not too obvious and sometimes partly covered by an arm … I'll just do the wings, which is probably more forgiving.

Re. the caps. Most of my books are in boxes and have been for some time due to a (badly managed) move. I have easy at hand the very handy Partizan Press / James Woods book which has a Bob Marion colour plate showing an officer of the 23rd Foot wearing a hat. It says "Minden – August 1759 – based on a contemporary watercolour". I don't know the watercolour, but it does indicate hats might be in order. It might even be the picture Supercilius Maximus is mentioning

Fusilier of the Royal Welch Fusiliers in the SYW era:
link
(Central figure)

Correction : Grenadier of the Royal Welch Fusiliers before the SYW.

We don't know if the mitre cap of the fuziler coys was similar to the grenadier cap.
Nothing in Lawson's book.
Nothing in royal regulations…

British uniform of SYW period (not Morier's period !) is very difficult to study.
Seneffe, one more time, could you share with us your sources ? It seems you have some sources others don't have.
It would be really very interesting for me and Kronoskaf SWY project !

Gentlemen, many thanks for the input and clarifications. As things stand, I shall wait before ordering my grenadier officers to re-equip themselves with mitre caps.

Frédéric, couldn't agree with you more on sources – Kronoskaf too would be well advised to reference specific items of information, such as in the 40th Foot entry linked by SM above.

@ andygamer – did you notice that the 24th Foot grenadier has no wings on his coat? I wonder if any other regiments went without them?

@fff2008 – the item I'm referring to is the colour plate in the Mollo/McGregor book "Uniforms of the Seven Years War" but I'd bet real money that it was taken from the exact same watercolour that you refer to.

Wings were officialy abolished in a royal regulation several years before SYW period.
BUT, a lot of colonels continue to accept them.

Sorry but, for my "SYW Project" plates, I was obliged to take Morier's paints as model for this.
No other sources available for wings on uniforms.

I think that a lot of uniforms were greatly simplified… only after 1762.

Frédéric

c.1751-60

Did you notice that the 24th Foot grenadier has no wings on his coat?

Yes, that had me at first thinking it was the 23rd instead of the central figure.

I wonder if any other regiments went without them?

I didn't look through for the other fusilier regiments to see if they also all went without; or to look through the line grenadier plates (with no or few hatmen) to see if they all have them or if it varies and by how much.

For me, all regiments didn't have wings during SYW period.
Even all grenadiers coys didn't have wings during SYW period…

If I remember well, wings were for all grenadiers at the beginning of the century and only at this period !
Some colonels, loving this wings, gave them to their regiment in the 20's and 30's.
But, it was not appreciated by the King and regulations tried to cancell them.
Morier's paints are showing the situation for the beginning of the 50's. All regiments (not only grenadiers) were like that during this period.
I don't know if wings were still "alive" for SYW period (I supposed yes for my plates).

According to Andygamer's link above (the Morier painting), it looks like no wings for anyone (Fusilier and Grenadier). Would the only difference be a simpler cap for the fusiliers, and the belting. None of them really relevant in 15mm :-(

Musketier, cirederftrebua

There is quite a bit of information on Fusilier/Grenadier officers mitres of the SYW period. All of it is reprinted in easily available modern sources.

Lawson vol II figs 26 and 27 has illustrations of officers' mitres of the 2nd, 3rd and 65th Regts. The first and last are from extant examples. The middle example is from a contemp portrait. The 3rd is also shown in the Fosten brothers' book ' The Thin Red Line'- published in 1989. I have also seen an actual cap of an officer of the 38th regiment c1760, in a regimental museum in the UK.

Re Fusilier officers in mitres, there is a painting by Gainsborough of an officer of the 21st Fusiliers c1755 wearing a highly embroidered mitre. I think it is Maj Majoribanks- certainly he is quite senior, so not a Grenadier company officer. This is reproduced in Michael Barthorp's excellent 'British infantry uniforms since 1660'-pub Blandford press 1982.

Fred- the above book and Thin Red Line are by no means unusual sources, and are pretty essential for anyone writing on British uniforms.