"Flow-Aid by Liquitex vs. Army Painter Quick Shade" Topic

Hello Everyone!

I have reading as much as I can about various shading techniques and just seem to confuse myself more.

I have read about the 'Army Painter Quick Shade' method (along with it's various equivalents such as Minwax). I have also read about using 'Flow-Aid' (and is equivalents such as clear floor polish).

What is the difference between these – if any?

I do have some of the clear floor polish to try the 'Flow-Aid' method. I'm not sure what color to use with it to get the 'Soft Shade' color available in Quick Shade. I've heard that the Quick Shade Soft tone works well with white uniforms. Any ideas?

Thanks!

I just started using Clear floor wax instead of Minwax Tutor stain about a year ago. I just add some sepia & black ink to a little Clear & it works like a dream. How much ink to add is up to you. I thought just sepia would do it, for me, it didn't. I found I needed to add a drop or 2 of black to suit my own tastes. I wish I would have started using Clear years ago. No more smells, ruined brushes or clean up with thinners! I checked into this subject for a long time, I just wish I had done it earlier!
Highly recommended!
Peter

I've never seen a reference to using Liquitex's Flow-Aid to the degree of a tinted wash. It's usually used as a flow enhancer for paints; when mixed with water, a little is added to paint, rather than a little paint added to a medium such as Future/Clear.

Peter's description sounds like that of many happy Future/Clear users. For white uniforms or linen armor, I find that the old Citadel Brown-Black ink works well-at least until my stash runs out! Adding a little black to sepia, as Peter does, would be about the same, I should think.

A caution: I'd try to avoid using proper India Ink for the black, though, as that tends to have a proportion of shellac, which can do unexpected things to the mix.

Allen

Brown-Black…hmmmm….I'd have thought something along the lines of gray would be used.

The two products are very different although hobbyists use both methods to get shading in the recesses of a model.

What you are really asking is what is the difference between "the dip" and a regular wash.

A wash uses thinned paint. It's a way of using the flow and evaporative properties of fluid to distribute pigment into the recesses of a model. The paint is thinned past the point where the media can cure into a continuous skin. The wash is painted over an area and the recessed parts of the model naturally hold more. As the water evaporates out, the media concentrates, eventually binding with the pigment. The raised parts are too diluted and get little pigment; the recessed parts gradually concentrate into a normal paint solution and consequently there is denser pigment deposited in those sections. Sometimes the surface tension of the water interferes, causing a "halo effect" (generally considered bad) where the pigment is pulled out to the edges of the area rather than down into the physical recesses. Adding something to the wash as a surface tension reducer counters this. Hobbyists use different additives to mix their own wash water with reduced surface tension: dish soap, dishwasher rinse aid, alcohol, window cleaner, saliva (ew).

Liquitex Flow Aid is a pre-mixed product that takes the guesswork out: just add it to your paint to prepare a wash.

Then there's "the dip". You mix pigment into varnish and apply that to the model (most hobbyists don't literally dip it, they brush it on). As the varnish dries, it pulls the pigment down into the recesses, so it has a similar shading effect to a wash, but frequently is done over a whole model (you can do a wash over a whole model too but never mind). It has the added factor of putting a protective varnish coat on the model. "The dip" started with hobbyists who use furniture stain -- a ready source of pigmented varnish -- and yes, dunked the figures into it, hence the name. Another famous preparation is "magic wash", using Future, an acrylic floor varnish (in the US sold now as Pledge with Future Shine, in some countries as Klear, etc.) and mixing in whatever paint is desired.

Army Painter Quick Shade is varnish mixed with pigment, so it is pre-mixed "the dip" for hobbyists.

(FYI of the products mentioned I've used water with dish soap or rinse aid and I've used Future with hobby paint. So no direct experience with Army Painter Quick Shade or Liquitex Flow Aid.)

Terrement, my favorites are Winsor & Newton Brilliant Watercolours: they came in large bottles with droppers, but sadly, have been discontinued.

Next would be W&N inks; they work fine. So do the original Citadel inks (now Coat d'Arms). Occasionally, I've used the subsequent generation of Citadel washes and glazes with no problems, for specific color effects. Even Tamiya Smoke is useful! Others have reported good result with other artists ink brands.

Some people use small amounts of paint instead of ink. The main difference would be that the pigment in inks (and commercial washes and glazes) is likely to be more finely ground than in paints.

I find Future to be very forgiven, so it doesn't hurt to experiment.

Allen

Just thought I would add this info as well.

When i was first looking into this a gent from NZ contacted me and sent me his method.

Following is what he does.

"If I am doing a basic Black Wash I'll use about 1 part in 6-8 Floor Polish, the balance being water and acrylic paint or oil (typically 3 or 4 parts Tamiya Smoke and/or Black with 2-3 parts Water and 1 Floor Polish) – this is designed to give best of both worlds, break the tension and help provide a bit of a hard coat on the pain job. The Floor Polish works exactly as previously discussed as a tension
breaker, allowing the liquid to flow more easily into the creases, holes, grooves, etc by removing that natural surface tension that tends to hold water together in bubbles… I recommend you trial it a bit though as the Polish will cause the wash to froth up and get foamy
if you are a bit vigorous so you may want to use even less

And I am talking about clear floor polish (like you use on vinyl, lino, or perhaps tiles) not the dark stuff for hardwood and such! :-)

This is the specific one I use here in NZ:
link

Anyway the point being you don't have to go out and buy some
specialist expensive product to do a good wash…"

aecurtis: I've never seen a reference to using Liquitex's Flow-Aid to the degree of a tinted wash.

Me either, and you're right, that Liquitex's directions for using Flow Aid describe using it to make translucent applications, e.g., what we would call stains or glazes.

However it adds "there is no binder and it can weaken the stability of the paint film when too much is added" … which is exactly what we're after when preparing a traditional wash: a preparation so diluted the paint film doesn't develop except in areas where it can concentrate.

Liquitex Additive Mediums: link

Yep, I went and looked it up, too: so you're right, you could use it as a wash. Being a cheap Yankee, I'd just say there are less expensive ways to break the surface tension in a wash--although Flow-Aid is highly diluted when used that way. There are also "craft" media, like Jo Sonja's, that do the same thing.

Allen

For those of you who use the floor wax stuff, what ratio of paint/ink to floor wax do you use?

The method the guy from NZ sent me is a bit confusing. I understand the 1 part to 6-8 floor polish, but get lost when he mentions "…the balance being water and acrylic paint or oil (typically 3 or 4 parts Tamiya Smoke and/or Black with 2-3 parts Water and 1 Floor Polish)…"

Is he meaning that you make a wash using water and pant and this becomes the '1 part' that you add 6-8 parts of floor polish?

Correus, it sounds like you are leaning towards using "magic wash". I agree with aecurtis, Future is a pretty forgiving product so experimenting to learn what you like is a good approach.

The specific product mentioned by the hobbyist in New Zealand, Klear, is generally called "Future" across the hobby, because that was the brand name used by the first hobbyists to work with it. It has different names in different countries. I see you are in the US; here it is now sold as "Pledge with Future Shine".

Here's all the info you ever wanted to learn about it:

Swany's Models The Complete Future: link

Donrice – I was just getting to post the same link! ;)

Have you used this stuff?

Correus: For those of you who use the floor wax stuff, what ratio of paint/ink …?

I am just starting with it, I am using the Future full strength. I used 1:20 Future:ink, that produced a stain (too much pigment). Next I used 1:30 Future:ink; that is still a little dark. When experimenting with washes thinner is better because if it's too light, you can just do a second coat and it builds up the pigment.

I think the New Zealand hobbyist is trying to describe that he prepares a wash mixture of thinned Klear, 1:2 or 1:3 Klear:water. Then he adds that roughly evenly to paint, varying from 4:3 to 1:1 to 3:4 paint:mixture. If you add all those parts up you get 1 part Klear in 6-8 parts other stuff; that's probably what he meant.

Correus,
I use Windsor & Newton inks. I squirt out about 1/4" of Future floor wax in a small plastic butter tub.I then pour about 6 or 7 "drops" of sepia (my ink bottles don't have droppers!) and then about 2 or 3 "drops" of black. I will then test on the fig, if to dark just wipe off. Or wash it off with water. The beauty of it is, just add more Future wax to the mix to lighten it up or another drop or two of ink to darken, very forgiving stuff. I tried this on aecurtis's & others suggestion. I gotta say, it really is the BEST stuff I've ever tried!
Peter

The recipe for the liquitex magic wash is in the TMP archives under"help finding magic wash formula" It works incredibly well as a wash and it dries with a flat finish and never gets gummy. The main advantage to brushing on your wash to dipping is that you can control it perfectly and use different shades on different parts of a figure.

Okay then…it sounds like the magic wash/floor polish would be the way to go.

Thanks everyone for all the helpful info!

Donrice – the term 'Magic Wash' completely slipped my mind for some reason. I did a quick search of TMP and found even more info by using this term.

I've used quite dilute Future (as much as 1:10 in water, before adding ink) as preliminary washes in the course of painting; I'll often do a Future wash before adding highlights. A dilute coat of untinted Future is useful for prepping a figure for a wash--if the paint underneath has a lot of "tooth" that would grab the ink particles in a wash, rather than letting it shoot to the crevices.

1:1 up to straight Future before tinting is good as a top coat. A straight coat of pure untinted Future is good as a protective top coat, or to "gloss" an area before adding decals.

Honestly, I haven't figured out how to screw it up yet, except for applying a wash over a grainy, "toothy" layer of paint. In that case, it will tend to stain the flat surfaces rather than darken the crevices. In that case: dilute straight Future, as above.

Allen

aecurtis – is that 1 part Future to 10 parts water?

The one disadvantage (if it is one) with using "magic wash" is the Future is a gloss varnish so all the layers tend to be shiny. Many of us final coat our models with Testors Dullcote or another matte varnish so this is no problem. But I was interested in the mix referred to by Major General Stanley since he says it dries flat; here it is:

seven parts water to two parts Liquitex flow aid to one part Liquitex retarder plus a drop of dishwashing liquid.

I haven't tried this myself but just looking at it, some parts seem unnecessary. Dish soap is a home made surface tension reducer; it seems redundant with the Flow Aid. And retarder is to keep the paint from drying so fast; it wouldn't seem like you'd need that with so much water in it -- not for a wash.

For blending that would be different, then you'd want the paint to stay wet on the model while you added other pigments. I freely admit I'm a Philistine when it comes to blending; once I get a layer on a model I want it to dry as fast as possible, so possibly more sophisticated painters would tell you of course you need the retarder.

donrice, I always spray my Future coated figs with Dullcote. Works great & adds yet more protection.

Never had good luck with Flow Aid.

I've had great luck using Future wax. Plus it is a lot cheaper than Flow Aid.

After that I spray 1-2 coats of Krylon gloss varnish followed by a coat of Dullcote. Even figures that receive very heavy handling survive quite well. Maybe they need a re-coat of varnich then Dullcote again every 5 years but they still have all the crisp detail I painted on way back when…

"aecurtis – is that 1 part Future to 10 parts water?"

Yep, you can go that dilute and still get the efeects of Future in a wash. But you don't have to.

I generally spray Dullcote, too; never any problems in the dry air out here. But I've also used Tamiya Flat Base to flatten a protective Future top coat, and that works pretty well, too.

Allen

someone suggested to me that car windscreen wash 9that blue stuff) can be used with a drop of ink for the same effect as future ….. not sure if that would work and if so, whether it would be less glossy than the future?

I have tried the liquitex and just could not get it to work, I still got the halo effect. I recently stated using the Army Painter Midtone. I find that it work quite well and gives a very hard finish to protect the paint job. I quick spray with Dullcote takes off the shine and it works quite well on white as you can see here.

link

I was surprised as I did not expect a good result but I like it.

John

I use the Future wash mix, but I've diluted the Future 50/50 with distilled water and then add it to my mix which also contains Liquid Matte Medium from Golden which generally matte's the Future shine down to nearly Dullcote flat when it dries. It does not tend to remain glossy or refuse to dull down like some other products.

Doesn't the Liquitex Flow-Aid dry high gloss?

I've heard the Matte Medium is good, and I have never tried it.

normsmith, car windscreen wash is likely going to be soap (a surface tension reducer) plus water plus possibly other stuff (maybe ammonia to help with evaporation, etc). See my first post in this topic where I talk about preparing a wash and why a surface tension reducer helps. Notice where I say some hobbyists use additives like window cleaner? That would be about the same thing.

So, no, windscreen wash is not Future (because Future is varnish) but yes, even though pigmented varnish is different from a thinned paint wash, both can be used to get the result of applying paint into the recesses of a figure.

However it adds "there is no binder and it can weaken the stability of the paint film when too much is added" … which is exactly what we're after when preparing a traditional wash: a preparation so diluted the paint film doesn't develop except in areas where it can concentrate.

that isnt what it means donrice.

I have tried the liquitex and just could not get it to work,

You wont, it's duff pseudo-science.

The very best after painting wash in my mind is Liquitex's Raw umber thinned down with a lot of water. I use it both before and after painting. I describe my method here: link
Simon

Reader Name 001: that isnt what it means donrice … duff pseudo science.

Thanks for the response. Any explanation or detail to back that up? Is the information on the Liquitex site wrong, or is it correct but I misinterpreted how to use it? What would be the correct way? What advice can you give Correus on how to shade his models?