"Grandier companies in russian musketeer" Topic

Battalions.

I was under the impression that both jeger and musketeer battlions were grandiers less, those having been placed in it's own grandier battalions,

But the lasalle packs from AB show musketeer and jeger battalions with grandiers

AFAIK, the Russian "combined" grenadier battalions were assembled from the grenadier companies of the line regiments' depot battalions. The field battalions still kept their grenadier companies. Of course this means the Russians had:

1) line regiments with grenadier companies,
2) "combined" grenadier battalions made up of the grenadier companies from the depot batts of several different line regiments,
3) grenadier regiments, raised as such, but comprising "fusiliers" in the centre companies, (versus "musketeers" in line regiments) and flank companies called… grenadiers (of the grenadiers)? I've never quite figured this last bit out.

Before 1802 Grenadier and Musketeer Regiments had 2 companies of grenadiers which were detatched and combined into independent 4 company battalions.

Then, until 1811, Grenadier and Musketeer Regiments had 1 grenadier battalion, and two fusilier or musketeer battalions respectively.

From 1811, all foot: Grenadiers, Infantry (previously Musketeer), Jaeger, Marine, and Guard regiments had 3 battalions each with one grenadier company composed of one grenadier platoon and one sharpshooter platoon.

1805-1810

Musketeer Regiments
1 x btln of Grenadiers
2 x btlns of Musketeers

Jager Regiments
1 x btln of Carabiniers
2 x btlns of Jagers

Grenadier Regiments
1 x btln of Grenadiers
2 x btlns of Fusiliers

1811 onwards

Musketeer Regiments
2 x btlns of Musketeers
=(1 x platoon of Grenadiers)
=(1 x platoon of Jager)
=(3 x companies of Musketeers)

Jager Regiments
2 x btlns of Jagers

Grenadier Regiments
2 x btlns of Grenadiers
=(1 x platoon of Grenadiers)
=(1 x platoon of Jager)
=(3 x companies of Fusiliers)

Shane,

Your overview, while good, is a little less than perfect. Here is the link to the Mark Conrad translation of Viskovatov, if anyone wants to look :
link

With kind regards,
Chuvak

I know Chuvak,

I basically fired from the hip as I did not have data with me at the time. Sometimes is is easier to be simple in your explanations than to confuse people with too much information.

Your link is perfect, I have this information also, it is very complete and definitive.

Shane

That really isn't helpful.

Edited from Mark Conrad's excellent site:

30 April 1802
All Army infantry regiments are ordered to consist of three four-company battalions:
1.) Life Grenadiers – of three Grenadier battalions;
2.) Other Grenadiers – of one Grenadier and two Fusilier [Fuzelernyi] battalions;
3.) Musketeers – of one Grenadier and two Musketeer battalions;
4.) Jägers – of three Jäger battalions.

12 October 1810
Regiments of Army infantry were ordered to make the following changes in their organization:
1.) In each Grenadier regiment (except the Life-Grenadiers), instead of one Grenadier and two Fusilier battalions, there were to be three Fusilier battalions, of one Grenadier and three Fusilier companies.
2.) In each Musketeer regiment, instead of one Grenadier and two Musketeer battalions, there were to be three Musketeer battalions, of one Grenadier and three Musketeer companies.
3.) In each Jäger regiment the battalions were to consist of one Grenadier and three Musketeer companies.
4.) In each Fusilier, Musketeer, and Jäger battalion, the senior, or Grenadier, company was to be made up of grenadiers and marksmen [strelki], so that the grenadiers are in the first platoon [vzvod] and marksmen in the second.
5.) When regiments are in battle formation, the 1st, or Grenadier, platoon of the Grenadier company was to deploy on the right flank of its battalion, while the 2nd, or Marksmen [Strelkovyi] platoon, was to be on the left.
6.) During wartime, when regiments move out on campaign, the Fusilier, Musketeer, and Jäger companies of the second battalions, having been used to fill up the other two battalions, were to remain in their quarters and were to be termed Replacement [Zapasnyi] battalions.
7.) The Grenadier companies of second battalions were to set out on campaign with the first and third battalions.
8.) When all six regiments of a division were united together, the Grenadier companies of their second battalions were to form for it two Combined Grenadier Battalions [Svodnye Grenaderskie bataliony], each of three companies.
9.) In each Corps [Korpus], the Combined Grenadier Battalions were to form a Combined Grenadier Brigade [Svodnaya Grenaderskaya brigada] and be the Reserve [Rezerv] of this Corps.
10.) In an Army [Armiya], the Combined Grenadier Brigades of its Corps were to form a Combined Grenadier Division [Svodnaya Grenaderskaya diviziya] and be its Reserve.

31 October 1810
1.) The changes effected on 12 October for the organization of Grenadier regiments were extended to the Life-Grenadiers, with the distinction that for that regiment all companies were titled Grenadiers.

14 March 1812
1.) Combined Grenadier Battalions [Svodnye Grenaderskie bataliony] were formed from the Grenadier companies of second battalions based on the regulation of 22 October, 1811 and to consist of three-company battalions.

there ya go, it is indeed "very" helpful.

Or, to simplify, yep, the "line" battalions would have elite companies with those cool plumes

Even that's a little tricky;-) Everyone in a Grenadier regt. had a plume. But in the Infantry and Jaegers, only the grenadier _platoon_ had a plume. (from 1811)

Now there's alot if mixing of terms here.

Do the line battalions have a company or platoon of greandiers, there is quite a big diffrence.

A platoon could be as few as 20 while a company could be 200.

half companies, the 4th company was split in two, half grenadiers and half light infantry from 1811 onwards.

In a Grand Manner 32 fig, 2 deep line, batallion, the 4 figures on each end of the line are Grenadier/Light Infantry.
Is that any use? no, prob not, but I am very, very drunk……………………………..

John

that a boy John, keep drinking

And what is teh correect information of the 1799-1801 period?. Will try to model Suvarovs army in Italy

In the pre-1811 musketeer regiments, is it not one grenadier company and three musketeer companies per battalion?

I believe the 1st battalion of each musketeer regiment is known as the "grenadier" battalion, but only had one company of uniformed grenadiers (like the other battalions). The rest of the 1st battalion's companies were uniformed musketeers with white pompoms. If this is not correct, I have some work to do on my minis!

no,

1805-1810

Musketeer Regiments
1 x btln of Grenadiers (all grenadiers)
2 x btlns of Musketeers (all Musketeers)

This means that one third of the regiment was considered Elite. However, most historians beleive that the difference between Musk-grens and Musketeers in these regiments was very minimal at best.

If you play a system that makes the grens very tough then that system is incorrect.

1798-1801:
Each Grenadier and each Musketeer regiment consisted of two battalions, of which:
. a Grenadier battalion was of six Grenadier companies.
. a Musketeer battalion was of one Grenadier company and five Musketeer companies.
. a Jäger battalion consisted of five Jäger companies.
In Grenadier battalions, one company was named a Flank company [Fligel-rota], so that there were two in each regiment.

- Allan

From Shane
"1805-1810

Musketeer Regiments
1 x btln of Grenadiers (all grenadiers)
2 x btlns of Musketeers (all Musketeers
"

Thanks thats what I'm looking for as I'm doing conquest units(1805-1807)
So a Musketeer battalion in 1806 or 07 would be 4 companies of musketeers no grandiers? so only musketeers?

Aye, 4 companies of Musketeers only per musketeer btln

and…

4 companies of Grenadiers for the grenadier btln in the Musketeer regiment – this btln as I stated could be considered elite but they were not, they were only nominally better than the musketeers at best, if at all. And if better, I am not sure in which aspects, maybe slight morale increase and melee factors because grens were picked on stature pre 1810, not experience.

so a Musketeer Regiment in 1805-10 would have:

8 companies of Musketeers in 2 btlns
and…
4 companies of Grenadiers in 1 btln

Shane

Thank you, turned out I was right after all, but only by random chance and not knowlange, but why does then the lasalle packs for AB have grandiers in a musketeer pack for the conquest period? was it simply an mistake?

I am asking out of ignorance and lack of definitive source that I have seen regarding the battalion structure or the Russians from 1805-09.

If the 1st battalion is all grenadiers this means there should be no musketeers in musketeer regiments that have white pompom/tufts on their shakos for the 1806-07 campaigns (the pompom/tuft being white for first battalions, yellow for second and red for third). That means all grenadiers have white pompoms and none have yellow or red?

I have seen renderings of Russian musketeers with white pompom/tufts and grenadiers with red pompoms below the broad plume (I am referring to the the outer portions of the pompom/shako, not the unit distinction center colors). Are these renderings in error?

A thorough read through the link to A.V. Viskovatov – link – (e.g., see Mark Conrad's note at the very botoom of the page) states:

The outsides of pompons were white for the 1st Battalion of the Life-Grenadiers and all Musketeer regiments, yellow for the 2nd Battalion, and red for the 3rd. In the rest of the Grenadier regiments the outside of the pompons was always white.

Lots of period "rendering's" are 'in error'- it happens.

What Viskovatov is saying there is that there were no pompons on the fusilier caps.

A nice chart of facing colors can be found here:
link

There is some deviation from regulations for the 1808 campaign in Finland. The losses in Poland (1807) caused the divisions that invaded Finland to field only 2 battalions per regiment (musketeer and jager). I would guess that the first and third battalion were fielded, possibly as a precursor to de Tolly's later reforms? With the manpower losses, I doubt if the first battalions of musketeer regiments were composed of grenadiers exclusively, but who knows?

Some of the literature on the war mentions "grenadier battalions" of specific regiments which – I suspect – means those particular battalions were mostly or exclusively grenadiers (possibly unlike most other first battalions during the campaign). If anyone has more information on the Russian battalion structure during the 1808 campaign, please share.

for 1808 in Finland I would have guessed that if field strengths were down they would have left the Grenadier btlns as they were but amalgamated the two Musketeer btlns? I am only guessing but that sound to me like the logical thing to do provided the men were re-organised into two btlns.

Shane

Okay, if I am reading the posts above correctly, the fellows in the link cannot have existed?

link

And yes, these are depcitions of musketeers and not jagers. Note the white belts.

If one battalion, the first, of each Musketeer regiment was all uniformed grenadiers, these images have a problem. They have white pompoms and tufts of the first battalion of a musketeer regiment. If the first full battalion had all grenadiers, these depictions show musketeers that cannot have existed.

Nafziger includes in his book on Russian Infantry of the Napoleonic Wars that de Tolly decried before his reforms that 'one quarter of the infantry regiments were grenadiers in uniform only.' If this is the case, that equates to only 3 companies of 12 in a standard musketeer regiment. Russian field battalions had 4 companies.

Does anyone have a source that speaks to this definitely? I found Viskovatov not to be definitive on the subject. Could it be that the first battalion was called the "grenadier" battalion, but had only one company of uniformed grenadiers? I need to make sure this horse is dead, dead, dead.

Gimrail,

The reforms of Barclay did not occur until 1810, yes he described that only 1/4 of Infantry btlns will be elite thus this equates to one company. However, that company was broken in two to form a single Grenadier platoon and a single light infantry platoon for each and every btln of each and every regiment of every type of Infantry except the Guards. But like I said, this was not until 1810 onwards.

If you are looking at the 1805-10 period then stick with what has already been explained. Each btln still had its four companies but all companies in a btln were the same.

1805 – 10

So in a Musketeer Regiment you would have: 4 companies of Grenadiers and 8 companies of Musketeers.

In a Grenadier Regiment you would have: 4 companies of Grenadiers and 8 companies of Fusiliers.

In a Jager Regiment you would have: 4 companies of Carabiniers (Light-Grenadiers) and 8 companies of Jagers (Light Infantry).

As for a quality comparison between these types of Infantry I would rate them from 1 to 3 as follows:

Grenadier Regiments
Grenadiers – 3
Fusiliers – 2

Musketeer Regiments
Grenadiers – 2
Musketeers – 1

Jager Regiments
Carabiniers – 2
Jagers – 1

Of course this is very subjective and does not mean that a Grenadier from a Grenadier Regiment is 3 times the quality of a Musketeer, just that the Grenadier overall is better. Each level being just a knotch in a qualtiy rating.

Also, individual regimental histories and fighting records would scramble this up a great deal, you would have several instances of particular regiments of one type of infantry superior to the next, even between the regimental types. The above table is only indicative of an average.

Shane

The "fellows in those links" are incorrect. I recognize one from Hourtoulle. Since H&C series is full of small errors in the uniforms, at least with the Russians, this isn't much of a surprise.

Nafziger's The Russian Army also offers a completely befuddled explanation of the 1802-1810 organization. (Unfortunately, Haythornthwaite muddles it in his Osprey as well. It appears he relied on Nafziger, based on his list of sources.) Steve Smith will probably be by shortly with the Barclay quote in the original Russian…

Viskovatov certainly is definitive, in the sense that everything in English used to be based on translations of his work. Only recently have corrections based on research started to emerge from Russian publications.

And Shane, as Chuvak explained, there were no Carabiners in the Russian army during the Napoleonic era. Jaeger regiments in 1802-1810 period were 3 battalions, 12 companies of jaegers.

And Shane, as Chuvak explained, there were no Carabiners in the Russian army during the Napoleonic era. Jaeger regiments in 1802-1810 period were 3 battalions, 12 companies of jaegers.

Okay, then why does page 8 of the Osprey book on Russian infantry give that term to one btln of each regiment of the Jager Corps?

Also, the same term is found in another book: L'Esercito Russo 1805/15 Fanteria. Ivano Falzone. In this book the author terms Russian Light-Grenadiers as "Carabiniers" and the other platoon as "Tiriliers".

nvrsaynvr: I say Viskovatov and Nafziger are not definitive because there is nothing I read that clearly stated the battalions would consist completely (all 4 companies) of the same troop type.

As battalions had "wing" companies before 1802 and "grenadier/light" companies after 1810, I think it would be necessary to note the 1802-10 period deviated from the first (and later) by battalions of only one troop type. The change in organizational structure is only referred to in the number of battalions fielded (from 2 to 3 then back to 2).

I would like to see something from a primary source (if possible) that clearly indicates the companies were all of a single troop type – before I sculpt a few hundred grenadier plumes….

Shane Devries: according to Nafziger, de Tolly's letter to the Czar criticized the exisiting (pre-1810) one-quarter allocation of grenadiers and advocated the one-eighth (half-company) grenadier allocation later instituted. That still makes 3 companies of twelve grenadiers by the observation of the most primary of primary sources (General de Tolly, unless Nafziger is in error).

I dunno Gimbrail, the evidence from every source I have seen clearly indicates the 1802-10 organisation as a single troop type in each btln.

If there is evidence to discredit this I too would like to see it.

Gimbrail,
I see your concern. Note that pre-1802 the grenadiers (that is grenadier coys of the musketeer regts and flank-grenadiers coys of the grenadier regts) were always stripped off an combined into grenadier battalions. So the battalions were always consistent. You are correct that Viskovatov does not specify what each company in the battalion was, but I think that's simply because it didn't occur to him that it would be an issue. Since he does carefully note the composition in 1810, I think it's safe to assume that the companies were not distinguished previously.

Shane, if you read my post again, you will see that I said the erroneous information in the Osprey can only come from Nafziger from among the listed sources. I can only speculate that Falzone cribbed from one of them. This is the problem with constant compilation and translation. One mistake, and it keeps propagating. Read Viskovatov carefully and you will see that Carabiner does not get introduced until after the Wars.

I see your point and it does now make me wonder on this. I have for many years now understood that the three jager btlns of a Jager regiment circa: 1802-1810 consisted of 1 btln of Carabiniers and two of normal Jagers so to suddenly find that the belief I had for so long is now under a cloud does concern me. I would dearly love to find some comparative information to confirm or deny this irrefutably now. I hope someone can prove or disprove this because if this is true I have to make urgent modifications to my rules system and Russian army description pages in my rules to account for this revelation. Basically I would like to have confirmed if the terminology: "Carabinier" was definitely a post-Napoleonic war term or not for the Russian army and weather there was any distinction between the three Jager btlns of the period 1802-1810.

Thanks for the heads up.
Shane

Shane and other Colleagues,

I will vote with nvrsaynvr on this : the battalions 1802-1810 each had only one kind of company in them.

I can't instantly lay my hands on a truly "primary" source, except some returns that differentiate the count of grenadiers in the Musketeer Regiments while all the returns for Jäger Regiments list only jägers.

But there are alot of pretty good secondary sources, starting with Vikovatov and including lots of regimental histories that do not mention a differentiation of companies within the bttalions of 1802-1810. All modern Russian army "specialists" concur.

Now, there is a "problem" for the Jäger Regiments – and that is the unit size. Clearly, through Austerlitz the jäger companies and battalions are smaller than the other ones.

There are a bunch of secondary sources that give slightly different versions of the Shtat in 1802 and 1806, but (with thanks to Mr. Robert Goetz and our "Big Al"), I am pretty sure that the repartition given in Istoriya 96-go Omskago Polka by Kapitan V. V. Rantsov is correct :

1802 establishment:
4 shtab officers
42 ober officers
108 unter officers
1200 jägers
32 musicians
126 non-combatants
73 orderlies/servants (dentschikov)
1585 total
[1512 without dentschikov]

1806 changes:
Decree of 4 July 1806 adds 12 praportchiks to the officers of the regiment;
Decree of 16 August 1806 makes the establishment the same size as Musketeer Regiments.

1806 establishment:
7 shtab officers
54 ober officers
120 unter officers
1980 jägers
56 musicians
148 non-combatants
94 orderlies/servants (dentschikov)
2459 total
[2365 without dentschikov]

In practise, the jägers were often quite few in number, even against the lower establishment. The order of battle given by Mr. Goetz in the appendices to his excellent "Austerlitz" shows the marked comparison to the other regiments.

Chuey

Thanks Chuey,

Even Falzone stipulates that the Paper strength of a typical Grenadier, Fusilier or Musketeer Infantry btln was 738 men. However, he also points out that the paper strength of a Jager btln was 640 men. This information I have had for a very long time. Other sources also say the Jagers were of a much lower establishment.

Thank you for these details, they will help me a great deal.

Shane

Shane,

Starting from the new organization in 1810, there were the following :

- one grenadier company (out of a total of 4) in each jäger battalion.
- one grenadier platoon (out of a total of 2) in each of the forgoing.

There were also such things as "combined grenadier battalions", "combined grenadier brigades" and so on. These were composed of the grenadier companies of the 2nd replacement/depot battalions of several regiments. Jäger Regiments contributed to such combined units in the normal way, by which none of the "combined" units were composed soley of grenadier companies from jäger battalions.

Late in the era of the wars, 6 (and after the peace one more) Jäger Regiments were award the title "Grenadier-Jäger Regiment". They conserved their prior numbers. This was a combat distinction.

These seven Grenadier-Jäger Regiments were, after the war, re-named and re-numbered 1st through 7th Carabinier Regiments.

Now, actaully all these names and titles were not in English and not even in the Latin alphabet. Since the elite company of a French légčre unit was called "carabiniers", and since the Russians were constantly using the word "grenadier" in so many other places – well, it would be tempting to kinda rename or translate the Russian elite company in Jäger Regiments. And many writers did this. You can too, of course – just know that it is not what the Russians called this unit.

Chuey

Shane,

It is a pleasure and helpful to look at these topics with you. You have a fine eye for details.

This goes to your "exacly what did the primary sources say" comment ….

I think the slight variations in the shtat for 1802-1806 jäger regiments might be some sloppy transcribing. But maybe some of the variation also comes from inconsistent Russian original orders and/or documentation.

Several new regiments were raised in this period :
May 1803 – 20th Jägers — Olonets
August 1805 – 21st Jägers – Uglichsk
August 1805 – 22nd Jägers
March 1806 – 23rd Jägers
June 1806 – 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st and 32nd Jägers

It would not be too hard to have some small "waviness" in the detailed documentation that would have followed on all these formations scattered over some years (and a few wars) and a lot of territory.

Then later writers might hook onto the "waviness" at different numbers.

Anyway, I like the repartition as shown above as most "canonical" – and the units were smaller still in the field in any case.

Chuey

Now, actually all these names and titles were not in English and not even in the Latin alphabet. Since the elite company of a French légčre unit was called "carabiniers", and since the Russians were constantly using the word "grenadier" in so many other places – well, it would be tempting to kinda rename or translate the Russian elite company in Jäger Regiments. And many writers did this. You can too, of course – just know that it is not what the Russians called this unit.

Chuey, I totally agree with you, it seems English historians have translated the Russian term, "Jager-Grenadier" to also mean, "Carabiniers" as in the French Army which was the term they used to denote Legere Regiment Grenadiers (kind of). It is simple to see how this could be transposed to give meaning in the same way to the Russian term.

English speaking historians would have looked for a Carabinier btln (or at least a Grenadier btln) in a Jager regiment simply because Grenadier Regiments and Musketeer regiments had elite btlns thus to most it would have seemed natural that the Jager regiments would have had an elite btln also.

Do you think this is a very common mistake? Do you think that the Russians did not differentiate between the 3 Jager btlns of the Jager Regiments circa 1802-1810?

Shane

Of possible interest:

Āąõšóųåā. Čńņīšč˙ 101-ćī Ļåõīņķīćī Ļåšģńźīćī ļīėźą, 1788-1897. 1897.

Vakhrushev. Istoriia 101-go Pekhotnogo Permskogo polka, 1788-1897. 1897:

PDF link

This fine regimental history covers the 4th eger regiment during the Nap period, which is nearly unique.

I have been busy with a visit from my brother and family business for the past week or so.

Then the sculpting of grenadier plumes and supplemental painting will commence….

Shane,

"Russian term, Jager-Grenadier"
Careful, dear colleague …. To be extra precise …. There were after 1810 "grenadier companies" with "grenadier platoons" in in each of the "jäger battalions" in the "jäger regiments". And there were after 1814 "grenadier-jäger regiments".

"Do you think that the Russians did not differentiate between the 3 Jager btlns of the Jager Regiments circa 1802-1810?"
Well, there was not really any "elite" among the three.
They did differentiate them by seniority. The first battalion was the shef's, the third was the colonel's and the second was the lieutenant colonel's. Similar to the usage after 1810, the "flank" battalions were more senior than the "center" battalion.

Through 1807 (and over-simplifying), the Russian jäger were often used as "battalions" – more Austrian in style of usage than the French practice with their régiments d'infanterie légčre (including the use of rifles). Indeed the separate Russian Jāger Battalions had only been organized as Jāger Regiments from mid-1797. So it made perfect sense that all three battalions were organized the same 1802-1810.

Actually, over-simplyfying a little less – the Russian usage started at the end of Catehrine's regin in 1796 looking closer to "Austrian" or "German" and gradually came to be closer to "French" by 1816 – a continuum of evolution under the headings of
- jäger as a percentage of total infantry
- organization
- uniforms
- arms & equipment
- employment in the field.

==================================================

Steven,

Very, very nice! Thank you, as usual!

Have you ever come across this one ?

История 103-го пехотного Петрозаводского полка 1803-1903 гг.
подполковник генерального штаба Дубинин Роман Иванович и поручик С. М. Ральцевич
С-Пб.: 1903 – V, 337 стр.

(It is for 20th Jägers.)

Chuey

I have to, respectfully, disagree with Chuvak here. "Carabiner" is pretty much a perfect translation of Карабинер- as these things go. It appears to be a borrowed word in Russian as well as English.

This discussion made me look for my old sources from which we (our gaming group) established the Russian organization we use (at 1 to 20) for our rules back in the mid 70's. Unfortunately I can't find the references we used for our unit organization but it is easy to remember with a 30mm Rose 35 figure battalion sitting on my work table.

We use four (4) companies per Battalion, one of which is divided into a Grenadier platoon and a Light platoon. We allow the Light platoon to skirmish under our modified CLS rules.

More modern sources indicate, as noted in earlier posts, there were at least two other battalion organizations within the Napoleonic period (1797 – 1815).

The same source indicated Jagers had a similar organization only with fewer troops. We realized our sources were limited at the time but the decision to go with closer to full strength battalions had more to do with game mechanics and our CE (combat effectiveness) rules.

Thanks for the information and discussion. Will

NSN,

We don't diagree. Trust me.

I think you are trying to write Карабинерныхъ – as in Карабинерныхъ полков / Karabinernykh polkov / Carabinier regiments. No problem at all, from 1816 when the elite Jäger regiments were re-named (and re-numbered). I cannot think of any other way to translate this.

But our colleagues were actually asking about гренадерская рота из Егерских полков / grenaderskaya rota iz Egerskikh polkov / grenadier companies in Jäger regiments, the ones that existed from 1810.

My point was that these companies are ofter seen labelled as "carabinier" in western secondary works – based on analogy to French practise one supposes. This is a question of translation, I think.
To me "grenadier companies in Jäger regiments" captures the Russian usage much better, and avoids confusion with the later name for elite regiments. This is what I would use. But another translator might try to make this more simple and write "carabinier companies". I was trying to tell our colleagues that this usage was not "just plain wrong", but merely perhaps less than perfect.

I was trying to be nice. This is in contrast to when someone makes an error on purpose, to make a point about the supposed superiority of one army (nation, person, etc.) over another. Then I do not try to be nice.

:-)
Chuey

Ah, Chuvak, should have read more precisely…

And while I'm at it, I have to retract my suggestion that Nafziger created problems in the 1802-10 organization. In fact, his statement is a faithful translation of something the normally reliable Zweguintzow wrote. Zweguintzow seems to have confused the pre and post 1810 organization and really screwed the pooch…

Thanks Chuey,

I will now use this information for my Russian organisations in my system to alter the break down of 1802-1810 Jager regiments and take out the elite carabinier btln and recognise all three btlns on equal terms as Jagers.

For me, historical accuracy is what I am striving for so this is great to re-define the system closer to this.

Shane

A general outline :

Beginning of the reign of Paul 1 : 9 Jäger corps and 3 (separate) Jäger battalions (some in the process of formation) – each corps of 4 battalions, each battalion of 6 companies, all called "jäger" – denominated by "geogrpahic" names

Novemebr 1796 : reformed as 20 (separate) Jäger battalions, each battalion of 5 companies, all called "jäger" – denominated by numbers

May 1797 : Jäger battalions expanded to 20 Jäger regiments, each of 2 battalions, each battalion of 5 companies, all called "jäger" – denominated by numbers

November 1798 : regiments renamed for their commander, then shef from January 1799 (numbers often still also used)

March 1800 : general-major Sutgof's (or 1st) Jäger regiment disbanded (more or less for punishment) and the remainder re-numbered

March 1801 : naming by the shef discontinued – denominted only by numbers until after 1816 (with a few informal, unofficial exceptions for a famous shef like Bagration or Bistrom)

April 1802 : regiments reorgnized as 3 battalions, each battalion of 4 companies, all called "jäger" – small sized companies

May 1803 : 20th Jägers re-raised

August 1805 : 21st & 22nd Jägers raised

June 1806 : 25th through 32nd Jägers raised

August 1806 : company size increased to match other infantry formations

October 1810 : 33rd through 46th Jägers formed by converting Infantry regiments – regiments re-organized in 3 battalions called "jäger", each of 1 "grenadier" company and 3 "jäger" companies – each 1 "grenadier" company composed of 1 "grenadier platoon" and 1 "sharpshooter" platoon, each "jäger" company composed of 2 "jäger" platoons

January 1811 : 47th and 48th Jägers raised

Novemebr 1811 : 49th and 50th Jägers raised

July 1813 : 51st, 52nd and 53rd Jägers raised

November 1813 : 54th through 57th Jāgers formed by converting newly-raised Infantry regiments

April 1814 : 6 regiments re-named "Grenadier Jāger" regiments as an award, their numbers retained

August 1815 : the "Grenadier Jāger" regiments were renamed "Karabiner" regiments numbered 1 thorugh 6

February 1816 : one more regiment, from the Kavkaz, was selected for award or promotion as the 7th Carabiniers (several regiments had been re-numbered to make a contiuous sequence of 1st through 50th Jägers)

There is a separate evolution for Guard Jägers and irregular formations.

Chuey

Sob….. I have lately pained up 7 battalions of Russians at a 1:13 scale. (figure to soldier) I have read the above thread and been mentally smacking my head thinking about the repainting, reorgonization, relabling. You are all very cruel people. I am going to stop and go visit my old friend "Jaeger" in the green bottle untill my head stops spinning.