"Comparing slings and javelins? " Topic

In terms of game purposes, what would be the major differences of range, lethality, etc between slings and javelins? I am trying to decide if these two weapon-types should be classed as the same and possibly based on the same elements as "skirmishers"? The armies would be Sumerian. Thanks for any input!

'Skirmisher' is defined by function rather than weaponry. However:

Slingshot was quite accurate and deadly to even armoured troops. There was also usually plenty of ammunition around. Javelins had a shorter effective range, and a relatively slow moving pointed stick has less possibility of causing damage.

Right, where's the popcorn…

A slingshot missile is almost invisible. Thus a recipient reacts to actual hits (himself, those next to him or even the tree he's next to), rather like a firearm instead of reacting to the sight of incoming javelins, spears, arrows well before they arrive.

The sling cannot be used in any other way but "skirmish". It requires too much room to space close together. Javelin chuckers can skirmish AND mass close together. The sling far out-ranges the javelin. Rate of "fire" is about the same, with drill making the javelin faster. Theoretically there is no end to the ammo supply of the slinger: the javelineer will be "out" in two or at most three casts. The javelin does much more damage (has far more energy) than a sling "bullet". Imho, the two missile systems are about as unalike as possible….

also, javelins can potentially get in the way, i.e. stick in shields…

Still I would rather face them than trained slingers.

Good point about basing, Javelins could be used in closer quarters than slings, it shortens the range even more, but it is possible.

Slingers pretty much have to be deployed as skirmishers.

>>> Right, where's the popcorn…

Please pass it. The misinformation is entertaining, but I'm getting peckish.

Allen

That's our boy Allen; all snark, all da time.

Good popcorn, BTW.

Hardly snarky: just amused at how some funda-mental points are ignored.

Allen

Good point Allen, how can it be snarky to walk into a room comment on how amused you are by how everyone else is not as smart as you and continue on by….?

I'm pretty sure slings _can_ be used in close proximity to other ppl – many of us think of a "round the head" action, but the ancients seem to have also used an overhand or underhand ( sic! ) one such as illustrated on Trajan's column (

) – AFAIK he could be preparing to use either technique.

Overhand is likened to bowing in cricket, and either overhand or underhand are said to have advantages in accuracy compared to "around the head", where a slight mis-timing can result in a considerable angular error ( ie you can mis by a lot! )

See: Aloysius is smart!

"…and continue on by….?"

I didn't leave; I pulled up a chair by the fire to see if anyone knew their funda from their fundament.

Allen

It is not just swinging it overhead that requires room.

The overhand throw still has the entire length of the sling projected out from the body after the release of the projectile. The underhand method typically has the thrower taking a step, then you still have the length of the sling to deal with.

It depends on what you call en mass? If the sling is just under 4 ft in length (unfurled) you will want that much room plus about 2 ft for the slinger in front of you to swing his loaded swing back. That still leaves a gap of about 6 feet. The sling trajectory would typically be flat (unless using a staff sling to launch heavier projectiles) so you either have a single line of men with a foot or 2 in between or a staggering to give them room to shoot in between the ones in front.

One thing that seems to have escaped mention so far is that most javelins can, in a pinch, be used as a melee weapon of reasonable effectiveness (although perhaps of limited reach and possibly durability – depends on the construction). A sling isn't good for much in this regard. I suppose you might manage to secure the shot in the pocket (or funda media, for those more snarkily inclined) somehow, in which case you could lay about you like Charles Bronson with a sock full of quarters, but otherwise you might as well be beating your opponents about the head and shoulders with a thong bikini bottom.

Doug

"…the javelineer will be "out" in two or at most three casts"
I believe Roman velites carried seven…

to Bilsonius!

I sling on a regular Basis, make my own, and have used every method there is of using one.

Using a sling in an underhand-up, or overhand-down (that can be done too) method still requires room. there is too much going on to operate in 'closed order', and by that I mean the so-called closed order Assyrian Slingers you see on the reliefs.

No matter how skilled my fellow slingers might be, I would not willingly operate in closed order with a sling.

Pat

Now, on the main points

I can sling 100 yards well. However the record is about 500, and 200 is fair for a capable guy with a decent arm.

However at close range I would consider a Javelin as capable of inflicting calamitous harm if thrown by a capable man – more than a sling bullet. In addition, it could penetrate armour far better than a sling bullet, whose armour penetration is poor.

Rate of fire? well, I carry 40 or 50 Lead Glandes when I go slinging, and can fire one every 6 seconds. I could carry a lot more if I thought My life depended on it. I would say ROF would be the same for a Javeliner, but how many reloads could he have after his first 7?

Learning curve – I have not used a bow much, but could hit a barn door at fifty feet after a morning's practice. That is NOT the case with a sling. It would take a week to get that good. The person teaching you needs balls of brass too!

IMHO in accuracy there were different qualities of archers – there would only be slinging experts on a battlefield. Slingers should be rarer.

Pat

I sling on a regular Basis, make my own, and have used every method there is of using one.

Max – I'd be interested in any additional info you have available on making slings and/or casting shot.

I believe Roman velites carried seven

Thracians, also, are often depicted as carrying a handful of shafts behind the pelta.

Doug

Sane – what do yuo mean by "close order"?

I said they can be used in close proximity – contrasting to a previous posted who said they can only be used to skirmish – which I took to mean then can only be used in very open order….which may be a mistake on my part of course….

But if you could use a sling within 3-4 feet of another person then that is closer order than, say, roman legionaries are said to have sometimes used (which could be up to 6 feet per person…)

Is 3-4 feet "close order"? Well it's not as close as the "locked shield" which we sometimes read about, but it is plenty for an archer – I've stood on an archery line with as little as 24" frontage per archer – it takes a little getting used to being so close, but is no real hassle for a bowman.

But even I would think that si too close for a sling if you're all just standing there…..

Aloysius, by Close order I mean close-order toops that would engage in hand to hand – It would depend on the length of the sling – but you need to double that to have safe room to sling in. I make my slings from fist to Armpit, so you would need more than 8 feet safely, UNLESS EVERY SLINGER was drilled to loose at the same time and with the same method. If everyone used a side-arm cast at exactly the same time, like drilled musketeers, they would get away with 4 feet. But I don't beleive that ever happened.

Pat

Most of the rules I've seen utilise "loose formation" for the Assyrian slingers – somewhere between Sane Max's definition of "close order" on the one hand and all-out skirmish formation on the other.

This is a related topic, in a way, but I need your help in a clarification re: DBA shooting generally.
The query is……………

I have three units, exchanging shots with an enemy of three units:

123
abc

If a shoots at enemy 1 and causes a recoil, can a then be counted as an overlap for when b shoots at enemy 2?

(and vice versa)
I am genuinely puzzled, though it is probably a very simple answer to you "old hands"

I know of at least one ruleset that includes units of specialist close-order Heavily armoured slingers in the Assyrian Army, based on the the British Museum Relief of a line of such men slinging during a siege.

I wonder if you can get Sumerian Chariots with the shield at the side based on the Stele of Vultures Relief? I would say not, as no-one would be daft enough to mistake primitive artistic stylisation with real life in such a case. But because Slinging is a virtually dead skill, they make that mistake and no one bats an eyelid.

Pat (Batting eyelid furiously)

Parrs….no – for shooting the extra element shooting at a target for the -1 only counts if it is actually shooting at that target.

In your example a has shot at 1, so has no effect on 2 vs b.

If 1 had not been there then you would have had a and b shooting at 2 – and the extra element shooting would have inficted -1 factor on 2.

Sane – the illustration of Roman slingers shows much shorter slings than yours!

I believe Roman velites carried seven…

Seven javelins? I don't believe that happened. What is the source for this claim? Three javelins in the "off" hand and one in the throwing hand would be the upper limit picture This Wiki page is rather well done; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javelin again, "several" does not equal "seven" ….

Livy says that Roman light troops at Capua had 7 javelins (Livy 26.4) each 4 feet long (iaculus).

however these were apparently not Velites per se, since they were chosen from the Legions that were present, rather than being teh light troops that were part of them – the men chosen for this were selected because they were fit and fast, not because they were poor and young as Velites were supposed to be. also their weapon is contrasted with that carried by the velites – the iron heads of their weapons are said to be similar to those of the javelins carried by the velites.

these troops were supposed to work with the cavalry – to ride behind the troopers and leap down on a signal

Lucilius at 7.290 says that Velites carried 5 javelins (hasta velitarius) that were only 3 feet long.