"Looking for a good Age of Sail rules set" Topic

Today at the FLGS I looked over a shiny, picture crammed copy of the "Trafalgar" rules set, but I couldn't bring myself to pull the lanyard and purchase it without knowing what else lies out there. The ideal rule set (for me, at least) would be able to handle larger fleet actions, but would be detailed enough to make individual engagements fun and interesting. So, to all you old salts out there, which rules set do you think would best achieve the above?

Thanks,
Tom

Kiss Me Hardy. We have refought Trafalgar with hundreds of ships in one day, and we have also fought much smaller actions with one or two ships per side in half an hour to an hour.

Thanks for the quick response TFL! How do your rules handle weather conditions and how they affect combat?

KMH and I still enjoy WS&IM with a few mods.

"Trafalga" is a great set of rules for small skirmishes, But as far as my experience goes, the game becomes quite cumbersome when the players has to handle more than 4-5 ships each.

So – like all other kinds of games that are played, you might want to consider two sets of rules – one for fleet action and one for small ship vs. ship scraps

regards
Thomas

Kiss Me Hardy – fast, good historical feel
Heart of Oak – not so fast, good historical feel
Fire as She Bears – fantastic for fleet actions, no so great for small actions, good historical feel

KMH

and I love Heart of Oak but its really suitable for minor actions too much detail for a large one.

FASB is a decent set of Fighting Sail rules,I'd say. As is WS&IM.

KMH is still my favorite, and I started playing Heart of Oak back in the early '80s. I have FASB, but it never quite grabbed me for some reason.
BWW

I like Close Action.

Close Action is an engrossing game, that we play using the 12-directional movement rules, Bloody Red Flag, by Alfred Parker. I have played Heart of Oak, and it is a good sailing game, but its damage method leaves something to be desired. There was a computer assist game called Clear for Action which unfortunately seems to be no longer available.

Good luck in your search!

Cheers,
gregoryk

There's a problem with what you want: any game that has enough detail for good single-ship duels has far too much detail for fleet actions.

I don't have a recommendation for larger actions, but I agree with tjantzen: Trafalgar bogs with more than 4-5 ships *per player*. You could certainly play the Battle of Trafalgar using the Trafalgar ruleset if you had enough squadron commanders, but that's not how I read your dream rule thought.

The ideal rule set would be able to handle larger fleet actions, but would be detailed enough to make individual engagements fun and interesting.

These are mutually exclusive criteria. Any set that meets the second will bog down horribly with more than a squadron or so in play. That's like asking for a set of WWII skirmish rules that will let you refight Kursk!

You'd be better off getting a separate set for each type of action, or just making up your mind which one you want to do first and concentrating on finding a good set for that.

WSIM: still good for squadron-level actions after all these years. A half dozen other games written since, all good, have still not managed to significantly improve on its playability or historical veracity.

Trafalgar: not particularly good for either one; designed by people who know a bit about gaming, but either know very little about Napoleonic naval warfare or were willing to ignore it for the sake of a colorful game.

Heart of Oak: thoroughly covers the "nuts-and-bolts" of individual ship handling, a bit detailed for anything more than one or two ships per player. Well researched.

Regards,

Jeff

@Lion in the Stars, tjantzen and War Artizan:

Thanks to you and the rest for their advice.

I must admit that I'm something of a control freak, and if I could I'd try to furl every course and clew every topgallant and set every studdingsail on every ship of the line in a 27 vessel fleet, while sending and responding to signals all the while. I also realize that therein lies counseling and the possibility of a long restful stay in the country with plenty of therapy.

I suppose you're both right that I might need two different rule sets: one for small, detailed engagements a la Patrick O'Brian novels, and another for larger fleet actions. I was hoping there might be a hybrid out there that gives enough feel to do both on a satisfactory level, but I might want to go all out in either direction.

I think I'll settle on KMH for the line of battle rules. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of Heart of Oak? Apparently it's been OOP for quite some time.

Thanks,
Tom

Does anyone know where I can find a copy of Heart of Oak? Apparently it's been OOP for quite some time.

They're here:

link

Ordered! Thanks much.

If you want super-detailing, look no further than Rod Langton's "Signal Close Action". He's got rules for just about every imagineable situation, even box-hauling.

Flying Colors from GMT, good for fleet action. Or the just release 2nd game of the series, Serpents of the Sea which caters more to smaller single ship actions.

@PPR: Sure, I like micromanaging, too, but I don't want to know the correct order to furl, etc all those flags. If I knew that, I'd have actually served on the USS Constitution (or on the USCGC Eagle)! At least the simple command check mechanic used in Trafalgar simulates your 'avatar' on the ship giving the orders and the crew executing them correctly in one die roll. Why over-engineer the problem and slow down the game when you don't have to?

It's the same kind of thing in WW2 games: does it really matter that you hit that late production PzIV J 3" below the driver's viewport and 2" to the left, with a 5% chance of poor steel in that production run at that location, or does it only matter that you hit and either penetrated or forced the crew to bail out? Put more simply, do you want to spend 5 minutes or more resolving a single action, or do you want to spend 5 seconds resolving that same action?

@Lion in the Stars:

I guess it would depend upon the scale of the action. Despite my masochistic proclivity to get ensnared in too much detail, I can see where doing so would actually be quite fun in single ship actions, or even a small squadron since you're actually learning a thing or two about ship handling and the period as you play. But your point is taken that to attempt such a thing as the Nile or Trafalgar would be futile. I'd be daft to even start since I'd never finish it, so the rules used need to be more abstracted to make the game playable.

As an aside, I treat WW2 games in much the same way. I much prefer Rules of Engagement to say, FoW because it gives me a better feel for platoon tactics, whereas the latter seems more abstracted. But, I own both rule sets and play both since they do different things. I might have thought about that when I started the search for Age of Sail rules.

this has been a very informative thread, but I have similar questions from a different angle, and will start a new thread.

Btw, what abuot CoAG "Close Action" series? They sound like they are for single to fleet encounters, but for what are they really designed – small or large ship encounters?

Same question with Langton's "Signal Close Action". Sounds like they've a lot of detail, does that mean they are more for small ship-to-ship encounters?

My wife is a big age of sail nut and I'm trying to find the right rules to get her gaming. She is mostly interested in the sailing and crew aspects. Size of the actions is not so important and combat is secondary.
It sort of sounds from reading other posts already that Heart of Oak may be good.

If anyone has another two cents, my questions are:
1. The best rules for sailing and operations model with no limit on complexity.
2. Rules that give a good sailing model without being ridiculously hard to play.
Thanks,
V

Veloci,

Hearts of Oak, I think would be your best bet, IMHO. You can make it as complex as you need it… I also have some extra ships sheets and some alternate charts that I have made up. the rules can be downloaded, and aren't to costly.

good luck, I'd love to hear what you think when you get them.

PS if your near Connecticut, we try and do an Age of Sail game every month.

kev

Thanks for the nod Kev. I have decided to try Heart of Oak first and then maybe pick up something else later for me and the kids to play larger actions.
I'm a looooong way from you down here in Texas. I am fortunate that I have a great group of local gamers and we game a lot but not much sail stuff yet. Maybe that will change soon!

Just an update Kev. Your Heart of Oak suggestion was the ticket. I got it for real cheap and it is a great set of rules. After reading through it I am finding it to not be nearly so complicated as I had imagined and it is exactly what the Wifey was looking for. Even the record keeping is not actually all that bad although I can see where it is definitely not going to be a fleet game.

Thanks for the update. :)

Fleet game, yeah maybe not, although I have played a game with around 12-14 ships total, with 3 players… it was too bad…

post your email and I will send you some charts I was working.

Talk soon,

kev

Here's a Heart of Oak question: regarding movement distances, it seems that the ships tend to move at a rather stately pace thanks to the fact that they can only move in millimeters per leg, especially when beating into the wind. Am I reading this correctly?

I remember a rules set called Action under sale from many moons back; is that one still about?

PPR
yes, these warships were not much for beating into the wind. That's why so many of the privateer vessels were on the smaller side – quick to get in, quick to get out, but most importantly they could play the angles.

Even modern racers can have disparate sailing characteristics large enough that a wind change of a few degrees can determine a race.

One thing that you learn racing is that a small increment like just 1 degree farther off the wind makes a huge difference over a 12-hour race. You start in a big cluster of boats, and then in the first 10-15 minutes the fleet slowly spread out a little. 1 degree farther off another boat, or just .5 or .2 knots difference in speed over several hours results in huge gaps and suddenly you are nearly alone.

Also, the wind can be totally different just 200 yards away, you watch the water to see how it is reacting in other places, and sometimes you move to "catch a breeze".

It really is all about the sailing – especially in frigate v. frigate actions like I want to play. I'd guess that any accurate AoS game is going to be won during the approach.

Reading lots of HOrnblower helps understand all this, but you can also buy some sailing books to get the basics down.

How about "Beat to Quarters"? Anyone ever tried it?

Btw, got my Heart of Oak in the FGU complete set book, and the amount of research and such in it is just fabulous. Since it's also intended as an RPG, it has tons of details you might not find in a standard miniatures set of rules.

Chilly,
Drop me an email at sturm_flieger@yahoo.com
You can always catch me at my blog too
link

Heart of Oak is definitely going to work out pretty good. We played a couple more quick games mainly just sailing around. It is a challenge just to get your ships in position, I love it.
Thanks again
V

Veloci,
in the designer's notes, JW says that he purposely decided on alternating movement for simplicity for more realism he'd advise simultaneous movement. HOwever, with few ships it seems like a small burden.

I don't suppose you've tried any simultaneous movement options – it seems pretty important especially when moving in close proximity.

Since the orders are written anyway, why not move in increments?

Beat to Quarters 4.0.1 is available for free on-line, and is a lot of fun.

I have played numerous battles using that set of rules, from small actions with just 1 – 3 vessels, to fleet actions.

Works great, and has decent flavor for gaming. No crew actions are required though.

We dispensed with hexes, and just used an eight-point compass – no need for complex turn charts, since 45 degree angles are pretty easy to eyeball. You might want to make a turn chart for competitive play though.

I think we modified the turning abilities to better reflect the 45 degree vs. 60 degree turning maneuvers in the game.

Great fun, and highly recommended for a quick game!

Thanks guys, I've been sidetracked a couple of months but have been playing some Heart of Oak with the Wife.
I'll be checking out all the suggestions. Even though the Wife likes to micro manage, I still need a set for larger actions. I've heard a lot of good things about BTQ, I will give it a look see.

I cut my teeth on WSIM and further on Close Action, where we often played fleet actions of 30-40 ships total (some bigger) with one player per ship. These monster games, while very satisfying to be a part of, are day killers.

For large battles with limited numbers of players and limited time, I prefer and would suggest you consider Form Line of Battle (FLOB); there is a wonderful review of it by Stefan O'Sullivan here: link

O'Sullivan admits FLOB is not perfect, but states he prefers "a simple game that returns 90% of the accuracy than a more accurate game that is much more complex." I agree with him. The game can currently be purchased from Felix Enterprises. The production quality of the rulebook is fairly low; ringbound black and white print and illustrations.

It is a great game if an imperfect simulation. You'll want to play it again and again.

Jim

Surprised I missed this thread. I am with jimborex. FLOB is my all time favorite fleet rules for the same reasons.

I also play "Flying Colors", though I think the charts are clunky and can be streamlined. Most of my friends like the latter, but for me its FLOB.

"First Rate" is a also popular in my area but I never played them. Maybe someone on this thread can comment.

Hi PPR,

I have a new set available called "It is Warm Work". Easy to play set, works great for fleet actions, but small actions and one one duels can be fought as well. Action is quick. One player can easily handle a fleet ships. Not sure if if the detail level will be enough for you,but in order to play large actions some limitations to detail have to be made. If you would like to give them a try I have a couple of complimentary PDF copies available. Let me know your email address and I can send you out one.

Thanks once again guys. Everyone has been so helpful on my quest.
We have still only played Heart of Oak. The Wifey likes that game a lot butI still want to do fleet actions so I am reading and planning on trying BTQ and I think I will have a go at FLOB also. A friend has Kiss Me Hardy and I am taking a look at that too.

Morning Scout, I'd be interested in checking out Warm Work as easy is always a good thing with lots of minis on the table. My email is sturm_flieger@yahoo.com

Thanks

I had a coupon for a free set of the rules sent to you. Just redeem and you can download the set. Give it a try, We have had a good time playing them. A bit abstracted in spots and again a bit light on details, but they give a good game.

Thanks for the email Morning Scout. I already downloaded them and it looks quite cool at a glance. For the fleet stuff I am most interested in an easy fun game over authenticity as this will mainly be played with the kids.
I will be sure to give it my uneducated review!
Thanks again

Morning Scout,

Is there a way anyone else can get more information about your rules (or a copy)?

I'm looking for a set of rules that can handle small actions with ships smaller than frigates and up to frigate-size. I'm looking at the various lake battle during the War of 1812, but also some of the Barnary Pirate actions.

Thanks,
Dave

I have been reading Beat to Quarters, Kiss me Hardy, and It is Warm Work. All of the rules actually look pretty good!
What is kind of cool is that in this naval era it seems there are a lot of good choices and it looks like having two or three sets is not a bad idea. The right tool for the job sort of thing.

We have been playing Heart of Oak for a little while now and for small actions we really do love it. I'm kind of fond of it because it does such a good job of educating a land lubber.

It is Warm Work looks like a really good game for those sessions where you don't want to do a lot of hard work but it still looks like it has the important things. The one page Cheat Sheet is very well done.

I will read and play test all of these rules and post them on my blog later.
I also plan to try FLOB as suggested.

Dave, if you want to do 1812, I highly recommend Prevailing Winds by Thoroughbred.

They are superb for that, and for small ship actions as well.

I will probably get a copy of Prevailing Winds, but I'm always on the lookout for more options.

Dave

Regarding Wooden Ships and Iron Men, do people play this as a miniatures game ? Presumably on a hex cloth then ?
Are the rules available separately, or do you have to buy the boardgame ?

Ship O' the Line is the miniatures version of Wooden Ships and Iron Men. It's supposed to be played on a square grid, though in 30+ years of playing it I've never used a grid.

You should check out Flying Colors boardgame system from GMT. That includes the companion game Serpents of the Seas for smaller ships.

link

The rules are available here:

link

And you can play via Vassal Module too.

Yes, you can play WSIM on a hex-grid using the original rules. I don't know that it is in print anymore--you can probably find a copy online somewhere.

WSIM was a fine game, but written years ago in the 70s, I think. Rules have gotten better, more ergonomic if you will. There are better rules available now, IMHO.
Jim

Jim

I've looked at a number of sets over the years, and finally bought KMH 'blind'. I'm glad I did – most enjoyable set I've played

I wrote a review on my blog
link